How quickly can ich spots form on fish?

[wasabi bean]

I just finished a 14 day copper quarantine and a 9 week fallow period in my display tank, all my fish were looking super clear and also had no behavioural symptoms after maintaining 0.5ppm non chelated copper. I drip acclimated over an hour and added them to my tank, my midas blenny has now got a few bright white tiny specs on it and i was wondering if cysts could form in 1 hour or if it is just some sand particles stuck to its mucus coat from the transfer. What do you guys think?

 

[Uncle99]

I just finished a 14 day copper quarantine and a 9 week fallow period in my display tank, all my fish were looking super clear and also had no behavioural symptoms after maintaining 0.5ppm non chelated copper. I drip acclimated over an hour and added them to my tank, my midas blenny has now got a few bright white tiny specs on it and i was wondering if cysts could form in 1 hour or if it is just some sand particles stuck to its mucus coat from the transfer. What do you guys think?

Depending on where the cycle is, overnight they can take hold.

Doesn’t mean ick is still present. Could be sand?

I go 30 days, but just keep an eye on that.

If it is, they will be back every 4 days or so and in larger numbers.

 

[Ziggy17]

I believe the protocol is 30 days in copper, anything less will not be effective to kill the parasite in all stages. So it will come back and spread. Fallow the tank for 60-72 days to be safe tank is clear.

In terms of the spots, you will know by tmr if it’s sand as it usually falls off in a day.

 

[wasabi bean]

If i do have to take the fish back out what works for you guys as last time I literally had to rip all the rocks out if my scape

 

[christinna77]

Isn't the protocol either 30 days in copper in the same tank, or 14 days in copper + tank transfer? Why did it not work in this case, is it because the copper was lowered to 0.5ppm before the fish were transferred?

 

[wasabi bean]

Isn't the protocol either 30 days in copper in the same tank, or 14 days in copper + tank transfer? Why did it not work in this case, is it because the copper was lowered to 0.5ppm before the fish were transferred?

I dont know if it was uncussesful yet, it might be that i have a longer strain of ich but 0.5ppm non chelated is above the therapeutic level of 0.25 from what i researched

 

[wasabi bean]

Isn't the protocol either 30 days in copper in the same tank, or 14 days in copper + tank transfer? Why did it not work in this case, is it because the copper was lowered to 0.5ppm before the fish were transferred?

It is definitely better to move to an observatory tank but i just cant do that

 

[Fish Fan]

Isn't the protocol either 30 days in copper in the same tank, or 14 days in copper + tank transfer? Why did it not work in this case, is it because the copper was lowered to 0.5ppm before the fish were transferred?

You may have heard about the Tank Transfer Method (TTM), which is an attempt to eradicate parasites without any medications, by doing a series of transfers from tank to sanitized tank. The TTM is a whole series of transfers, and not just a single transfer from a QT tank to the display tank. Some do try combinations of medications and TTM, but again in order for transfer(s) to be a successful part of a QT protocol it would involve more than just one transfer. I hope that helps

 

[christinna77]

Isn't the protocol either 30 days in copper in the same tank, or 14 days in copper + tank transfer? Why did it not work in this case, is it because the copper was lowered to 0.5ppm before the fish were transferred?

You may have heard about the Tank Transfer Method (TTM), which is an attempt to eradicate parasites without any medications, by doing a series of transfers from tank to sanitized tank. The TTM is a whole series of transfers, and not just a single transfer from a QT tank to the display tank. Some do try combinations of medications and TTM, but again in order for transfer(s) to be a successful part of a QT protocol it would involve more than just one transfer. I hope that helps

I know about TTM, but in this case I was actually referring to this https://humble.fish/community/threads/explaining-the-14-days-in-copper-method.7603/

 

[Fish Fan]

I know about TTM, but in this case I was actually referring to this https://humble.fish/community/threads/explaining-the-14-days-in-copper-method.7603/

I know Humblefish has a huge following, and I did read through that article to where he's saying that the therapeutic level of copper prevents the fish from being reinfected, but the disease experts here at R2R like Jay Hemdal suggest 30 days in copper at therapeutic levels. I prefer more cation here, but Humblefish may be right, it's just not what most here on R2R recommend.

EDIT: And in the Humblefish article, I don't believe the "transfer" is doing much, he's just saying the fish went from medicated copper to a non-medicated observation tank. He's relying on the 14 days of copper to treat the Ich. He says at the bottom that there's nothing wrong with 30 days in copper, except that some fish don't tolerate copper as well as others. For those fish, perhaps the shortened time will be sufficient

 

[christinna77]

I know about TTM, but in this case I was actually referring to this https://humble.fish/community/threads/explaining-the-14-days-in-copper-method.7603/

I know Humblefish has a huge following, and I did read through that article to where he's saying that the therapeutic level of copper prevents the fish from being reinfected, but the disease experts here at R2R like Jay Hemdal suggest 30 days in copper at therapeutic levels. I prefer more cation here, but Humblefish may be right, it's just not what most here on R2R recommend.

EDIT: And in the Humblefish article, I don't believe the "transfer" is doing much, he's just saying the fish went from medicated copper to a non-medicated observation tank. He's relying on the 14 days of copper to treat the Ich. He says at the bottom that there's nothing wrong with 30 days in copper, except that some fish don't tolerate copper as well as others. For those fish, perhaps the shortened time will be sufficient

From what I understand is that the trophont attaches to the fish for 4-10 days before it drops off into the substrate to reproduce.

Once it enters the theront stage to seek out fish to attach to, this is where copper comes in, as it prevents it from attaching in the first place. This leads to it starving out within 48h.

Going by this logic, if I remove the fish after all trophonts have dropped off, and do not transfer anything else with it, it shouldn't make it into the observation tank.

I guess my question is: in which case would the 14d copper plus transfer method fail? Is it possible the trophont stage may last longer than 14 days? Or could there be copper resistant strains that are capable of attaching to the fish even in fully therapeutic copper levels?

 

[Fish Fan]

From what I understand is that the trophont attaches to the fish for 4-10 days before it drops off into the substrate to reproduce.

Once it enters the theront stage to seek out fish to attach to, this is where copper comes in, as it prevents it from attaching in the first place. This leads to it starving out within 48h.

Going by this logic, if I remove the fish after all trophonts have dropped off, and do not transfer anything else with it, it shouldn't make it into the observation tank.

I guess my question is: in which case would the 14d copper plus transfer method fail? Is it possible the trophont stage may last longer than 14 days? Or could there be copper resistant strains that are capable of attaching to the fish even in fully therapeutic copper levels?

I get what you (and Humblefish) are saying, and I am far, far from an expert. The method you're describing does make sense on paper, but given that guys like Jay H. (works professionally for large public aquaria) suggest a full 30 days, I'm thinking there must be some risk with just a 14 day QT.

To answer your last question, nothing is 100%, even Humble said so at the bottom of the article. There's typically at least a non-zero chance something could get by any QT protocol.

 

[christinna77]

From what I understand is that the trophont attaches to the fish for 4-10 days before it drops off into the substrate to reproduce.

Once it enters the theront stage to seek out fish to attach to, this is where copper comes in, as it prevents it from attaching in the first place. This leads to it starving out within 48h.

Going by this logic, if I remove the fish after all trophonts have dropped off, and do not transfer anything else with it, it shouldn't make it into the observation tank.

I guess my question is: in which case would the 14d copper plus transfer method fail? Is it possible the trophont stage may last longer than 14 days? Or could there be copper resistant strains that are capable of attaching to the fish even in fully therapeutic copper levels?

I get what you (and Humblefish) are saying, and I am far, far from an expert. The method you're describing does make sense on paper, but given that guys like Jay H. (works professionally for large public aquaria) suggest a full 30 days, I'm thinking there must be some risk with just a 14 day QT.

To answer your last question, nothing is 100%, even Humble said so at the bottom of the article. There's typically at least a non-zero chance something could get by any QT protocol.

Oh definitely, not trying to argue with the experts here, just trying to understand why they suggest 14d might not be enough. Hopefully one of them can chime in

 

[Fish Fan]

Oh definitely, not trying to argue with the experts here, just trying to understand why they suggest 14d might not be enough. Hopefully one of them can chime in

Let's ask an expert!

#fishmedic - non emergency, but could one of you weigh in on the 14 vs. 30 day copper timeframe please? Thank you in advance!

 

[christinna77]

Just want to add that we're comparing 14 days in full copper followed by a fish only transfer to another tank, vs. keeping the fish in copper for the full 30 days in the same tank.

 

[Fish Fan]

Just want to add that we're comparing 14 days in full copper followed by a fish only transfer to another tank, vs. keeping the fish in copper for the full 30 days in the same tank.

Yes, I do believe I get what you're saying, I just can't speak to the efficacy of that method. I'm sure one of the Fish Medic crew will see the tag above and give us some greater insight.

 

[MnFish1]

The protocol we use for quarantine is documented based on the best science thats out there - some people use a higher temp and a lower time. Some use a longer QT time afterwards. I prefer 30 days as it does give a bit of leeway - and additionally if you're going to do 2 weeks - it is not that much longer than 14 Edit 30 days - as compared to pulling the fish out of the display and starting over. As to the question from the poster - I'm not sure there is a direct study comparing those 2 methods - so anything said would be conjecture. Then, second, the data people are looking at is for cryptocaryon - not velvet or others. So - thats another reason I would tend to use 30 days.

Just want to add that we're comparing 14 days in full copper followed by a fish only transfer to another tank, vs. keeping the fish in copper for the full 30 days in the same tank.

The life cycle is not written in stone, i.e., its possible 14 days in full copper would work- but - then lets pretend a week later there are spots on your fish - then you start over. IMHO -its not worth the effort/risk

 

[Fish Fan]

The protocol we use for quarantine is documented based on the best science thats out there - some people use a higher temp and a lower time. Some use a longer QT time afterwards. I prefer 30 days as it does give a bit of leeway - and additionally if you're going to do 2 weeks - it is not that much longer than 14 days - as compared to pulling the fish out of the display and starting over. As to the question from the poster - I'm not sure there is a direct study comparing those 2 methods - so anything said would be conjecture. Then, second, the data people are looking at is for cryptocaryon - not velvet or others. So - thats another reason I would tend to use 30 days.

The life cycle is not written in stone, i.e., its possible 14 days in full copper would work- but - then lets pretend a week later there are spots on your fish - then you start over. IMHO -its not worth the effort/risk

Thank you for your reply and help!

 

[Ziggy17]

When it comes to R2R, I take Jay and Randy’s word as the gospel.

From what I read, the fish that don’t well in copper seem to die off in the first week, so perhaps there is no further danger running a 30 day copper treatment than a 14 day on more sensitive fish. Like wrasse…

I could be wrong, I often am.

 

[wasabi bean]

Ok, i woke up this morning and the spots on my midas blenny were just sand, however it would appear my six line wrasse was still infected and had formed some small cysts two at max overnight, i have caught it and put it back in my quarantine tank. None of the spots dropped off as i counted them and the other fish are all completely clear, do you think they could’ve been reinfected overnight or should they still be fine. Basically i am asking should i take all out to re quarantine now for 30 days or just the six line