How to successfully keep SPS Corals!

[mcarroll]

I'm not sure I get what the confusion over nutrients is...

Or if there's no confusion, then I don't understand what's being suggested/asserted.

The Treatment
Folks in this thread who add N and/or P fertilizers are generally doing it because their system is deficient. (In many cases because it has been artificially made deficient.)

These folks see immediate improvement in their corals when fertilizers are added. Problem solved.

The Ecology
This doesn't have any direct bearing on whether corals ever eat. And it certainly doesn't imply that they never eat. It's just a fix to a problem.

For what it's worth, corals use of dissolved nutrients has been shown to scale inversely with availability of food particles.

It can be thought of like this: The more they eat, then less fertilizers they will use. The less they eat, the more fertilizers they will use.

 

[Scott.h]

@Futuretotm
Nice to see a local on here. I'm in Lakeland.....

Yes.... You're pretty much correct. It can get much more complicated than that, and there are many pieces of this puzzle, but it sounds like you pretty much got it.

What left the scientists scratching their heads, early on, was the fact that they could drift around in the open ocean for days, weeks, or months, and see very little, if any, signs of life. Then drift over a sea mount and see an explosion of life just below the surface. Fish of all sizes and shapes and colors. Coral and sea anemones flourishing. Then they could drift a few more yards and be right back in a sea of nothingness. It didn't make sense. How could a seemingly sterile, oceanic desert, give rise to such an abundance and diversity of life???

There was one evolutionary leap that made all of this possible. That was when a zooxanthellae took up residence inside a coral. Before this, coral could not survive in these areas. Without coral, not much else could survive either. Corals couldn't survive because there isn't enough energy/nutrition in the water to support them. Algae cells, like zooxanthellae, couldn't survive in large numbers because there isn't enough dissolved fertilizers, like nitrogen and phosphorus, in the water to sustain them. When these two teamed up, everything changed. A healthy coral could now receive energy, nutrition, sugars, carbohydrates, directly from it's zooxanthellae. This meant that the coral could now survive where these resources, from the surrounding environment, were not in great supply. The zooxanthellae could now obtain its fertilizer (nitrogen and phosphorus) from the waste of it's coral host. The zooxanthellae were no longer dependent on the insignificant amount of fertilizer dissolved in the open ocean. Through this tight sharing and recycling of nutrients, together they could flourish, where alone they have no chance.

Once you have life like this in an area, it typically gives rise to other forms of life that utilize this life for it's own organic food, shelter, and survival. Microbes feed on coral slime. Other tiny creatures feed on these microbes. Larger creatures feed on these creatures. Others may feed on the coral itself. Still larger creatures feed on these creatures. Before long, we have what we now call coral reefs with their huge diversity of life. Even though there isn't enough nutritional input to sustain it alone. All of these animals play a role in sharing and recycling the precious few nutrients they have. "Poop", plays a huge role in all of this. One organism's waste is another organism's feast. A grouper may feed on a parrot fish, then poop. Other fish may feed on this grouper poop, then poop themselves. Still smaller fish may feed on this poop, and poop themselves. Then a coral polyp may feed on this poop. A parrot fish may then feed on this coral polyp, then be eaten by a grouper, and the process continues. Through this process, these organisms can trap and recycle the same nutrients over and over and over and over again on the coral reef. This, and other factors, leaves the whole community with very little dependence on nutritional input from outside sources, or nutrients dissolved in the open water. The whole system can survive and flourish even though they live in very nutrient poor waters. In fact, they depend on living in these nutrient poor waters. When nutrients in the water rise, the whole system is disrupted, and coral reefs die.

This is why I am firmly against the notion of maintaining X amount of, or dosing, inorganic nitrogen and phosphorus into the water of a system that's dedicated to keeping SPS/ reef building stony corals. None of the links, or quotes, in this thread, or any other thread, and none of the countless research papers I've read, show that these corals are dependent on inorganics like N and P in the open water. Not one. These animals are dependent on N and P, just like the rest of us animals on the planet. However, that does not imply that these healthy corals are receiving these nutrients through inorganic dissolved substances in the water. They live in an environment where these resources are scarce to say the least, and where one tiny organic particle, or organism, captured as food, will have a concentration of nutrients that far exceed the water around it. A healthy coral on a coral reef would have to process vast quantities of water to equal the nutritional value of one tiny little copepod. These corals rely on their zooxanthellae for the vast majority of their energy requirements, and feeding on organic particles for the vast majority of their nutrition requirements for growth and reproduction. We have all kinds of literature to show that these corals suffer when N and P are elevated in the water, but nothing to show that these corals are adversely effected when they are low, or undetectable with our test kits. Providing the corals are fed well.

Peace
EC

Although I don't use the same strategy as you, I can appreciate what you're saying. I don't think adding N or P alone will make or break someone from being able to keep sps, but I think there are a couple of things to be pointed out. I do think dosing for those running low levels offers an extra blanket of protection. I'd also argue that I feel the corals look a bit brighter and healthier when a measurable amount can steadily be detected. This could hold true for those corals in nature as well. But for someone reading this thread starting out trying to understand what's going on I think it's beneficial to explain what you said a bit further. If you have a mature system (obviously you do) then you have a mature biological environment established at multiple levels reguarding your food chain argument. So for someone that has imature dry rock (lacking important bacteria), or a small bio load of fish, or lacking organisms in that food chain, or small/few frags that won't release much volume of slime, one might wonder why they can't support certain corals running an almost starved environment and left scratching their heads. It's not as simple as adding fresh salt water with "perfect" near ocean perameters, light, and flow and expecting the success that you have at undetectable nutrient levels. I do think that if you feed heavy (which you obviously do), and have a system of still being able to keep those nutrient levels ultra low, that feeding heavy is an appropriate method giving the corals what they need. One might wonder what would be considered a heavy feeding also. To me that means enough food (small) particles for each coral to regularly obtain. For a newcomer to the hobby their version of a heavy feeding into a fairly new system could cause other problems if not understood. But I'd also point out that running near or undetectable levels at that level we can't really measure how low that level really is. The newer the tank the more critical I feel that is, as it would be very easy to go too low for someone that didn't understand these things. Ultimately our tanks are very different then the ocean. I'd also like to think that we are able to, or very close to being able to keep certain corals in captivity that may not be able to survive in the ocean. Those reasons could be anything from pollution to temperature, or.. something else.

 

[hubcap]

thanks to everyone who took the time to post pics, info, and links.
you have no idea how valuable this is having it all in one place.

thanks. its truly appreciated.

 

[Bugger]

135 Gallon 72"x18"x24" 6 years old

Parameter levels:
Ca - 400ppm
Alk - 7.8-8.0
pH - 8.1-8.3
Mg - 1300
NO3 - rarely test anymore
PO4 - rarely test anymore
Salinity - 1.025

Lighting: ATI 8x80w Two bulbs ON 9am-11pm, remaining bulbs on 10am-8pm

Water Changes: 1 gallon per day (Apex Dos)

Controller: Apex

Dosing:
Calcium reactor

Flow: 2x Apex Wav running on pulse at 100% inverse

I had the most success when I stopped messing with things. I rarely test NO3 and PO4 anymore because I was always chasing numbers up and down and constantly taking away stability. I no longer dose anything or take any extra measures. I have tried many of common methods i.e. ZEO, carbon dosing etc. but never had any real success. Everybody always mentions patience in this hobby. I think my success started coming when I truley learned patience and just let the tank be and let things settle out instead of intervening.

Roughly 24" Red Planet

So no zeovit. what exacatly is inverse mode on the wav do? I have the same pumps.
I really like your tank

 

[vetteguy53081]

135 Gallon 72"x18"x24" 6 years old

Parameter levels:
Ca - 400ppm
Alk - 7.8-8.0
pH - 8.1-8.3
Mg - 1300
NO3 - rarely test anymore
PO4 - rarely test anymore
Salinity - 1.025

Lighting: ATI 8x80w Two bulbs ON 9am-11pm, remaining bulbs on 10am-8pm

Water Changes: 1 gallon per day (Apex Dos)

Controller: Apex

Dosing:
Calcium reactor

Flow: 2x Apex Wav running on pulse at 100% inverse

I had the most success when I stopped messing with things. I rarely test NO3 and PO4 anymore because I was always chasing numbers up and down and constantly taking away stability. I no longer dose anything or take any extra measures. I have tried many of common methods i.e. ZEO, carbon dosing etc. but never had any real success. Everybody always mentions patience in this hobby. I think my success started coming when I truley learned patience and just let the tank be and let things settle out instead of intervening.

Roughly 24" Red Planet

VERY TRUE STATEMENT ON STABILITY. SO MANY OUT THERE WHO SAY IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP SPS THRIVING. ONE LITTLE TWEEK OR CHANGE IS ENOUGH TO CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR AND SURVIVABILITY

 

[Rakie]

1) Stability -- Params don't even have to be "perfect" for results. Just stable.
2) Some nutrients -- Ever notice how every 2nd or 3rd post on this entire sub is as follows? "HALP SPS DYING AND PALE, NO3 & PO4 = ZERO WUTS WRONG".

So on 1... I was foolish and didn't calibrate my refractometer for like 6-7 months. My salinity slipped to 1.021 and I still had growth and color. why? Stability. Even mediocre stability is better than instability.

And on 2... SPS like nutrients. When I was first in this hobby in middle school the only answer was zero no3/po4. Now the goto seems to be around 10 no3 and .05 po4, and in the article here with the "masters" most of them are around 20+ no3 and above .05 po5. Not a single one promotes zero/zero anymore.

 

[TVo]

Aquarium size: 256g display (72"x33"x24"), 40g frag tank (40"x30"x9"), 75g sum = 360g+ total water volume

Parameter levels:
Ca - 450ppm (Hanna)
Alk - 8.0 (Salifert)
pH - 8.1-8.3 (Apex)
Mg - 1380 (Salifert)
NO3 - .5 - 1ppm (Salifert)
PO4 - 0 (Salifert)
Salinity - 1.025 (Refractometer)

Lighting: Sfiligoi XR6 (3 250W 20K Radiums) + 8 39w T5's (all ATI actinic).
I change Radiums every 8 months - T5's once a year

Schedule:
Sunrise - 10AM - 11:30 - All 8 T5's ramp from 0-100% (then off at 11:30)
11:15 - 12:15 - Halides ramp from 0 - 100%
12:15 - 8:15 - Halides running 100% (T5's off)
8:15PM - 9:15 - Halides ramp down from 100% to 0%
9:00PM - 10:30 - T5's ramp down from 100% - 0%

Water Changes: 30g change every 2 weeks (Tropic Marin BioActiv)

Controller: Apex

Dosing:
2 part from BRS via LiterMeterIII
Mag - TechM (Kent's) - find this helps keep bryopsis at bay)
Zeo Sponge Power - 2 drops per day
ZeoBak - 10 drops per week
Pohl's Xtra - 2ml per day
Lugol's - 3 drops per day
BRS biopellets - 1 cup (just started this 8 weeks ago - starting VERY slow - so far, so good)
BioPellet Reactor - Reef Octopus from BRS

Skimmer: Royal Vertex Alpha Cone 300

Food: Rod's Food, Various types of algae for tangs, OysterFeast (3 times per week), PE Mysis

Misc: Sump contains a few pieces of liverock, skimmer, heater, and powerhead - VERY simple.

I think that's everything about my system. Here are some older pics. Current tank has been setup for just under a year now. It has grown in quite a bit (need to take some updated pics). Link to the AdvancedAquarist tank article is below in my signature (LOTS of pics and more info there). Hope this helps : )

beautiful build! healthy corals!

 

[TVo]

I'm definitely a lightweight in this discussion, but I've had my 180g up for just over a year and it was first real attempt at keeping SPS. I've been successfully keeping saltwater tanks for over a decade, but previous reef tanks were LPS & Zoa dominated. Over the first year, my growth and coloration has been good and my tank is quickly filling in.

Dosing:
For dosing, I dose 2-part via dosing pumps and magnesium manually. Once every month I adjust my dosing amount according to the system needs. I run a ULNS, so I've found that 15 drops of Brightwell's CoralAmino brings out the best coloration in my corals and prevents the pastels found in starving corals found in some tanks. I also dose 3 drops of lugols each day due to it's potassium content to help maintain blues & purples in my tank. My ATO runs through a kalk reactor to help keep Ca & Alk steady.

Water Quality:
I do 40 gallon water change every 2-3 weeks using RC salt. As far as filtration goes, I run a fuge with a DSB, Chaeto, and LR rubble. My skimmer is a Octopus Extreme 200 upgraded to a Bubble Blaster 3000 pump. I run WM EcoBak, Rowaphos, and Carbon in reactors 24/7.

Lighting:
I run 450w of LED (ReefFiltration Gen2 fixtures) along with 468w of T5. I'm confident that the LEDs can grow coral on their own, but I like having the piece of mind with the T5s producing a broader spectrum. The T5 fixtures houses 12x39w bulbs currently comprised of six ATI Blue+, two ATI Purple+, two UVL SuperActinic, and two Current 10k. Here's my light cycle:
7:00 AM: Actinic T5s ON (Actually two UVL Superactinic & two Blue+)
9:00 AM: LEDs ON
11:30 AM: Daytime T5s ON
1:30 PM: Daytime T5s OFF
4:30 PM: LEDs OFF
7:00 PM: Actinic T5s OFF

Coral Feeding:
I broadcast feed a mix of ReefNutrition Oyster Feast & Coral Frenzy every three days. Once per week I feed my tank with baby brine shrimp. Although this is predominantly for the LPS & fish, some feeder response is noticed in the SPS as well, so I'm assuming that they are feeding on the BBS.

Parameters:
I keep salinity at 1.026 and my temperature range is 79-80 F. Calcium is kept in the neighborhood of 430-450 and I keep my alkalinity at 8 DKH. While this is on the low end of preferred alk levels, I've read that maintaining higher alk levels in an ULNS can be probelmatic. Magnesium is kept between 1300-1350 and pH fluctuates between 8.3-8.5 depending on the time of day. I strive to keep nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia at zero, but many aquarists have noticed improved coloration when maintaining NO3 levels in the 5-10 range (I offset this loss of color by dosing amino acids and through supplemental feeding of my corals). I try to keep phosphates as close to zero as possible and they usually measure between 0 and 0.02 on a Hanna calorimeter.

thanks amazing!!

 

[ddrueckh]

A question for the experts:

It seems easy enough to keep Ca, Alk and Mag levels stable using a variety of methods that have been discussed quite a bit in this thread. What seems much harder to me is keeping stable nutrient levels...Nitrate and Phosphate. How much do your nutrient levels swing over time? What methods are people having success with in reducing and keeping "stable" nutrient levels in their tanks? what maintenance is required in running your method? Thanks.

 

[vetteguy53081]

A question for the experts:

It seems easy enough to keep Ca, Alk and Mag levels stable using a variety of methods that have been discussed quite a bit in this thread. What seems much harder to me is keeping stable nutrient levels...Nitrate and Phosphate. How much do your nutrient levels swing over time? What methods are people having success with in reducing and keeping "stable" nutrient levels in their tanks? what maintenance is required in running your method? Thanks.

I went with the trident method. Prior to that, I used my doser and adjusted according to levels until I reached my goal for content of nutrients

 

[HolisticBear]

What seems much harder to me is keeping stable nutrient levels...Nitrate and Phosphate.

Unlike the big 3 (Alk, Ca, Mg) where the number is the end goal, maybe it's better to look at PO4/NO3 as a side-affect of the actual goal (balanced input & export). Which is a function of tank maturity, quality inputs (food and fish), and exports. It's really that healthy stable balance that's the goal rather than the actual PO4 / NO3 number.

Just a thought, but the 3 big are basic chemistry, but NO3 and PO4 reflect the biology of the tank

 

[mcarroll]

A question for the experts:

It seems easy enough to keep Ca, Alk and Mag levels stable using a variety of methods that have been discussed quite a bit in this thread. What seems much harder to me is keeping stable nutrient levels...Nitrate and Phosphate. How much do your nutrient levels swing over time? What methods are people having success with in reducing and keeping "stable" nutrient levels in their tanks? what maintenance is required in running your method? Thanks.

What's your tank like?

What's the bio-load like?

Stability is easier to keep on a simpler tank with a smaller bio-load.

Feeding the fish, growing coral (instead of algae) and running a protein skimmer can be enough.

 

[jda]

It just takes time. Export needs to match import... sounds simple, right?

After a year, or so, the anoxic bacteria zones in sand and real live rock can easily handle most of the Nitrate - fortunately, they cannot get all of it and it stays low, but not too low. This has gotten hard in recent years with more people choosing to have bare bottom tanks and use dry/dead rock which can take years and years to get fully functional enough to house and maintain a stable population of anoxic bacteria. My tank maintains .1 nitrate which is only detectable using IC testing - is is just "clear" on Salifert.

For phosphate, what most people have forgotten, or do not know, is that aragonite is the key - both your friend and enemy. Aragonite binds massive amounts of phosphate and can act as both a reservoir and a buffer. In a new tank with clean-from-the-ocean aragonite, it can absorb and absorb for months before it becomes full enough to let the tank levels rise a bit. This can mask many maintenance issues where people do not think that they have to change water or have a fuge because their P is low when the reality is that the aragonite is doing the heavy lifting for the hobbyist. In the end, aragonite can only hold so much and the levels do go up in equilibrium with the ambient tank water. ...so for people with established tanks with aragonite that has some phosphate, but not too much, it can buffer at a reasonably low level until water changes, fuge, etc. remove it from the system. In my tank, heavy skimming, reasonable feeding (I do not feed corals for a decade or more), fuge and water changes keep my nitrate at between 1 and 4/5 ppb on Hannah Ultra Low Phosphorous.

Both of these levels are fine for colorful and growing coral.

 

[Punchanello]

Just throwing this out there.
I know this is the common, or close to standard, advice given out on forum boards these days. My question is, why??

Why raise the inorganic PO4 level in the open water, where it is accessible by problem causing algae and microbes? If the goal is to provide PO4 to the coral, why not simply feed the coral directly with organically bound PO4, that is not accessible by problem causing algae and microbes??

Peace
EC

This post....mind blown

 

[ImHereForTheCoral]

So glad I found this thread! Loved the pictures and tank specs. I really want to have an sps dominate tank. I've tried a few sps coral, two types of povana and a psammocora, both povanas turned white in a week while the psammocora seems to be doing fine for now, had it for 3 weeks. Tank is 6 months old parameters are:
ph-8.0
Temp-78°F
Sg- 1.025
Cal-400
Alk-8
Nitrate-5ppm-ish
Po4-undetected. Using api for all tests so not the greatest. Starting to think tank just isnt mature enough yet. All other lps have great color and growing.

Great thread.

 

[Haxar]

Great thread ...subscribed .

 

[DaveC]

subscribed

 

[bluepoint]

subscribed

 

[Isaias]

Aquário 1000 litros total

Iluminação ATI 2 calhas 4x80w
Skimmer nyos 220
Bubble mahus
Reator de cálcio Bubble magus cr180
Dosadora Bubble magus bm01
Ozônio cubos 2000
Co

Fotoperiodo 10 horas full

Dosagem

Tempo de montagem 5 meses

Colônia maiores com mais de 1 ano no aquário antigo

From online translation:


Aquarium 1000 liters total

ATI Lighting 2 gutters 4x80w
Skimmer nyos 220
Bubble mahus
Calcium Reactor Bubble magus cr180
Meter Bubble magus bm01
Ozone cubes 2000
Co

Photoperiod 10 hours full

Dosage

Assembly time 5 months

Greater colony with more than 1 year in the ancient aquarium


View attachment 20181026_191406.jpg

View attachment 20181026_191406.jpg

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

BTW, if you run a really high pH (if you track it, where does it peak during day and night?) then your corals may be starving for CO2. A sure way to mess up their photosynthetic gear – which would lead to bleaching.

Coral generates CO2 through basic cellular respiration, so I’m not sure it’s possible to starve a coral (or, more specifically, zooxanthellae) of CO2.

Not to mention, a typical environment around a reef tank is going to have more than enough...and maybe even a little too much...CO2 to satisfy they very small amount unicellular photosynthetic organisms would need.