How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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we dont need any extra support its all done. we always start by changing all the water, agreed remove the shrimp it was feed and cycled tanks dont have to be fed they get their own feed from external and internal contaminations. after its filled with clean water, then you have a base filtration layer in place and no more bacteria doses are needed.


-helpful rule from updated cycling science: once set in place, a cycle cannot be starved out. Years unfed, the system still feeds in ways microorganisms have always done-daily incoming contaminations and the internal blooms that live and die because they landed in water, but werent reef adapted. temporarily-bloomed communities degrade specifically into carbon and trace ammonia and minerals in various stages, thats bacteria fuel and it happens over and over by the hour in any reef tank, post cycle.
 
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Cbones1979

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brandon429

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those tests wont help much as single point references, we dont expect them to read correctly.


the ammonia can be used to show motion if you want to dose it using the calibrated approach though


Our thread here is meant to highlight how api and red sea will always cause hesitation in tanks that are ready because they read wrong. (too high)


we can prove its ready two ways before adding life:
-use the 3 picture calibrated ammonia movement test on a suspected ready cycle
-change out the water, remove the shrimp, and add life and the life lives because you've met submersion time + clear nitrification in place, though those testers can't reveal accurate nitrite, ammonia, or nitrate. they do show some action, which is all the action we need given the # days underwater, the boosters, and the rocks and sand to attach to in your tank.

post a tank pic with some life in it, that's the ultimate picture to move forward here
 
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Cbones1979

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those tests wont help much as single point references, we dont expect them to read correctly.


the ammonia can be used to show motion if you want to dose it using the calibrated approach though


Our thread here is meant to highlight how api and red sea will always cause hesitation in tanks that are ready because they read wrong.


we can prove its ready two ways before adding life:
-use the 3 picture calibrated ammonia movement test on a suspected ready cycle
-change out the water, remove the shrimp, and add life and the life lives because you've met submersion time + clear nitrification in place, though those testers can't reveal accurate nitrite, ammonia, or nitrate. they do show some action, which is all the action we need given the # days underwater, the boosters, and the rocks and sand to attach to in your tank.

post a tank pic with some life in it, that's the ultimate picture to move forward here
Full water change? Or just partial?
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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as much as you can, its for the reason of exporting algae fuel. there's nothing harmful in the water if you added some items right now. but thats old waste + bright lights+ new feeding+ new animal waste = algae fast.

the full change or as much as you can removes one element of that algae compounding.
 
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brandon429

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he's going to zip around in there doing fishy stuff, feed lightly nothing falls to the bottom.

*to prepare for any issues, it wont be by a test kit. Any waste from the fish is likely to show .5 on api, its not. its controlled.

we can detect impending ammonia events *without* api in every single case.

sniffer test :) no joke
how does water smell right now


that will change on the repeat test if ammonia is ever uncontrolled, even slightly.


visual

clear water

ammonia uncontrolled this early on always causes marked clouding, don't overfeed so that rotting food doesn't build up.

if the water stays clear, smells consistent, api might still mislead.

fish behavior

pained fish dart around, act bad, hover at the top getting any last oxygen they can before dying in 48 hours.

The final step after assessing a closed cycle using updated science is either seeing what a fish does, or what seneye does. your posts have been very very helpful for our new thread
 
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brandon429

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lets see the fish how r they

nice documentation work here nice job. that ammonia easily looks .5 above, we can re-compare that reading to fish either doing fishy stuff or keeled over, in a cloudy stinky ammonia loss mess.

nitrite, claimed to be impactful in reefing, off the charts above or at least full-pegged.


and hows the actual reef looking?


being able to contrast clear up close api readings with clear up close tank biology is 1000% the intended scope of this thread.


everyone would have had you buying bottle bac due to those readings. if you added bottle bac it has no where to attach in your reef; by meeting the submersion time requirements for your boosted cycle all spaces are bacteria-filled
 

Cbones1979

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lets see the fish how r they

nice documentation work here nice job. that ammonia easily looks .5 above, we can re-compare that reading to fish either doing fishy stuff or keeled over, in a cloudy stinky ammonia loss mess.

nitrite, claimed to be impactful in reefing, off the charts above or at least full-pegged.


and hows the actual reef looking?


being able to contrast clear up close api readings with clear up close tank biology is 1000% the intended scope of this thread.


everyone would have had you buying bottle bac due to those readings. if you added bottle bac it has no where to attach in your reef; by meeting the submersion time requirements for your boosted cycle all spaces are bacteria-filled
Fish is farting around like normal. Added small cleanup crew and they aren’t moving much until feeding time. No algae growth and very low skimmate
 
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brandon429

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thats balanced thanks tons for the updates it paints the big picture nicely. in 100% of cases, ammonia problems can be detected without a test kit.

in 100% of cases where an animal loses its ability to control waste ammonia in the bloodstream, you can tell within 48 hours because they're dead or near it... ammonia is devastating consequential when its truly not under control. the aquarium not under control kills the fish; they depend on the environment to regulate emitted waste like a big set of kidneys

if a veterinarian took a dog's blood nh3 reading and his tester showed .5 ppm, and he asked the owners how the dog has been feeding, behaving, acting the last month and the owners said just fine, the vet would buy a different blood plasma tester lol

I bet even .05 ppm nh3 will kill animals overnite. we'd have to check logs to see
 
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Cbones1979

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thats balanced thanks tons for the updates it paints the big picture nicely. in 100% of cases, ammonia problems can be detected without a test kit.

in 100% of cases where an animal loses its ability to control waste ammonia in the bloodstream, you can tell within 48 hours because they're dead or near it... ammonia is devastating consequential when its truly not under control. the aquarium not under control kills the fish; they depend on the environment to regulate emitted waste like a big set of kidneys

if a veterinarian took a dog's blood nh3 reading and his tester showed .5 ppm, and he asked the owners how the dog has been feeding, behaving, acting the last month and the owners said just fine, the vet would buy a different blood plasma tester lol

I bet even .05 ppm nh3 will kill animals overnite. we'd have to check logs to see
It’s just weird other posters post on here their ammonia and nitrite are at 0 w same api kit.
 
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brandon429

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they absolutely do thats a valid point. Dr Reef's entire bottle bac thread is hard yellow zeroes, he wields the test well.

But its the mix of readings we see that highlights problems with API-none of the tanks showing ammonia noncontrol are under stress, things live and act normal.

To the point if we never used API at all, we'd never have any doubts about the cycle. Its literally only api not reading yellow that causes stalled cycle concerns, there is no biology backing it up other than color hues.

also added into the mix: not one seneye read online from thousands of seneye posters ever shows nh3 in the tenths ppm, not any tank even new ones, and across thousands of seneye units. API reports this degree of free ammonia commonly. I do not know why tests with API range so much, but I know why seneye doesnt

its because ammonia noncontrol always kills things, seneye reports levels that match how the tank looks and runs day to day. something about api makes it vary wildly per 100 readings
 
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brandon429

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let the official record reflect here: I will paypal the first poster who puts up the link $25 showing any seneye unit stuck at tenths ppm, dated prior to this thread. Its that rare to find stuck cycles actually occuring, I can bounty it.

the reading has to come from a reef tank lol it cannot be a bucket of sw dosed to .25 ppm ammonia with no bottle bac rocks and sand, no cheating lol

if I offered to pay $25 to the first api sample showing stuck cycle then I'd be -25$ already lol, thats such a powerful comparison to make.

the one kit we have in the hobby that shows thousandths and hundredths ppm clearly, never stalls not one time. Thats because a reef of full activated surface area will not permit a stalled cycle. there are too many bac ready and working.

one of these days someone with a broken seneye reader is going to be $25 closer to getting the replacement lol. It wont be the single example that fells me, it will be the complete lack of patterning that supports me. we can have fun with the bounty...if someone can post two separate individual seneye threads showing tenths ppm nh3 held in place, Ill pay double to the first poster. bounty=$50 for a double proof of stalled cycle digitally.


*we are able to use all API ammonia kits to demonstrate ammonia motion however, and that makes them handy. we just dont look to them for zero ammonia, because seneye shows ammonia is never zero, its actively converting always. API compare charts start off with a reading that can not occur in reefing, zero. there is no zero ammonia in reefing there is only safe zone or not safe zone, your tank is crashed. I guess the never-yellow api kits are over reporting the conversion rates.
 
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jackalexander

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cycles don't stall like we've been told

its not very hard to unstick cycles knowing that new rule in reefing. have been doing forum cycles + follow through for twenty years and I don't recall a single stalled cycle, across any forum in fact. rare like a snipe

_______________________________________________________________________________

This thread will use live time examples from cycling tanks to reveal truths in reef tank cycling, and inherent consistency vs implied stall

Reef tank cycles don't stall, we will reveal.

Why don't my tests line up with cycling rules? (A stall suspected)
Many reasons why, we'll get to that on a case by case basis.

Post any cycle you think is stalled, and we'll unstall it using the current setup, without buying new things, mainly by typing that you are not stalled (after we scan details for short two details: # of days underwater and what brand of bacteria you used that has already been charted by Dr Reef for deposition timeframes)

Ok post up the challenges
32 gallon coralife biocube with filter cartridge and activated carbon, using live sand but dry macro rock. I have over 8ppm ammonia and the tank has been up for about a week now. Used Dr. Tims Nitrifying bacteria and ammonia in a bottle. Currently dosing 2 caps of Stability a day.
 
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brandon429

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Do you already have fish in this tank









For future reference as our tests build, here's Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread I get my timelines from.

 
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brandon429

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Jackalexander ends up making a thread that will contribute to new cycling science in 2020

proof of the unstuck formerly stuck cycle with one 100% water change

8ppm initial reading

now proven cycled.

API now agrees using the calibrated reading approach

the fish can go back now. That thread is in the top three threads in existence for revealing new truths in aquarium microbiology/ another is DJCity's 3 year fallow rock test thread, where it all passed as if fed daily.
 
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I predict we won’t find any stuck cycles as long as this thread runs. We will find various degrees of reading from wastewater samples, and normal-acting fish and after a nice reset water change the fish still acting normal but the test readings streamline a bit better
 
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