How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

Cbones1979

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I predict we won’t find any stuck cycles as long as this thread runs. We will find various degrees of reading from wastewater samples, and normal-acting fish and after a nice reset water change the fish still acting normal but the test readings streamline a bit better
Yeah, the gramma has been in the tank over a week acting fine. I did notice the crabs and snails are inactive (one I think died). I had this issue with my old tank where crabs would die within a week. I forget how I solved it.
 
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Cbones1979

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Cycle api now shows 0-0 daily for ammonia and nitrites. Prob don’t have a lot of wast at this point so I added two more fish.
 
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brandon429

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Some new entrants are coming today or tomorrow, awaiting final oxidation proofs


any new stuck cycles out there? if anyone can find stuck cycle posts from any board or youtube challenges send them here for unsticking
 

shew

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According to my data, my cycle isn't stuck (yet). More than happy though to provide the data for you and for people who might overdose ammonia early on. Caribsea Liferock + Caribsea Live Sand, 20 gallon build.

-Water in new tank on Wednesday the 9th.
-Thursday did Dr. Tim's + ammonia drops (I overdose'd ammonia by about 30%, math is hard).
-First Test on Friday, 2 ammo, 0 nitrite 0 nitrate
-Added second round of ammonia after sept 12th testing, hence the huge ammonia spike.

Also... if anyone uses Aquarimate, I hate how the graph doesn't start at 0 for all data points

119225397_785489528944962_8161305158428274420_n.jpg
 
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brandon429

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A neat way to look at that post will be to test predictability of Dr. Tim's against Dr. Reef's thread tracking its readiness out to about day ten, under any typical starting ratio

add a pinch of flake feed too for the next few days, he tells us carbon is a real booster for Dr Tim's + the ammonia you've added.

At day ten, we think you can change out your water for new, add some life or retest for ammonia *using the calibrated three point reading from prior and it will pass.

On that chart above, if seneye is making the ammonia data that's one thing, but if it's non seneye data, our thread exists here to remedy how that ammonia reading is likely wrong.

we think pre-tested submersion time plus those active readings for nitrate and some nitrite as a side-confirmation show you've added live bac, and those have been tested out already to day ten but not with a single-point api ammonia reading, there was water change + re-testing oxidation in a very ordered way for clear proof.

if you followed all directions on bottle bac and added plenty, plus feed, and did a clear 3 step ammonia test on day 10 and it wouldn't pass after reading an initial ammonia spike left in place ten days, that would be documentation of a stall.
 
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Kylepope2020

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Does my cycle look right ? Red Sea test kit


Reef tank parameters



Day 1 : 0.2 ppm ammonia



Day 2 : 0.2 ppm ammonia - 0 ppm nitrite



Day 3 : 0.2 ppm ammonia - 0 ppm nitrite - 0 ppm nitrate



Day 4 : 0.2 ppm ammonia - 0 ppm nitrite



Day 5 : 0.2 ppm ammonia - 0 ppm nitrite



Day 6 : 0.2 ppm ammonia ( added 1 frozen prawn 8:30am)



Day 7 : 0.8 ppm ammonia



Day 8 : 0.8 ppm ammonia - 0 nitrite



Day 9 : 1.2 ppm ammonia - 0.05 nitrite



Day 10 : 1.2 Ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite



Day 11 : 1.2 ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite

(Removed prawn)



Day 12 : 1.5ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 1 ppm nitrate



Day 13 : 1.2ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 2ppm nitrate



Day 14 : 1.2ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 4ppm nitrate



Day 15 : 1.2ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 2ppm nitrate 4ppm



Day 16 : 1.2ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - nitrate 4ppm



Day 17 : 2ppm ammonia - 0.15 nitrite - 4ppm nitrate (added atm colony)



Day 18 : 1.2ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 4ppm nitrate



Day 19 : 1.0ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 5ppm nitrate



Day 20 : 1ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 4ppm nitrate



Day 21 : 1.2ppm ammonia - 01 nitrite - 4ppm nitrate



Day 22 : 0.8ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 4ppm nitrate



Day 23 : 1.2 ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 4ppm nitrate



Day 24 : 0.8 ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 5 ppm nitrate



Day 25 : 1ppm ammonia - 0.1 nitrite - 4ppm nitrate
 
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brandon429

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Hey that's 99% likely done but there's one detail

thank you for posting as well

*did you add bottled bac and it's now all mixed for a month w that prawn? If so, cycled.
Reason: bottle bac works across strains by day ten when fed well like this

What your wastewater + those test kits read are reading just right if we use the tests differently than waiting for zero

The fact you have any nitrate shows conversion

That plus your feed and submersion time is cycled, if you dosed bottle bac originally. If shrimp only go 40 days change water, cycled

we always change wastewater for new here then start, it's the final touch to our way of unsticking cycles
 

shew

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back with more data!

I feel like I am past my Ammonia spike phase of the cycle. Hitting 8 ppm early on made me worried but it looks to be doing okay? Nitrite hit 5 ppm and is slowly in decline. Skipped a day of ammonia drops too because it was over 5 ppm.

Nitrates never really hit a big spike. Once my Ammonia/Nitrite hit 0, is my cycle done? Not sure if there was enough bacterial growth since I didn't stay 100% true to the Dr. Tim chart due to my ammonia levels

119673293_991820094624330_5197408668889352029_n.jpg
 
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brandon429

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Let me know what you think about nitrite per page one, we do a couple reefs where changing out the wastewater that had + ammonia and + nitrite made all the difference, the old rules used to require that we wait for it to self-clear but thats no longer a requirement


regarding high ammonia we showed it won’t matter using the 100% water change example thread

the way our cycle thread differs from all cycling threads is we don’t call a cycle done when ammonia and nitrite are zero. It’s hard to get them to zero, thats where the concept of a stuck cycle comes from so we use other means, # of days underwater, bottle bac factor which Dr Reef has already measured in terms of # days to completion, and whether ammonia can be shown moving down from a higher setting.

Depending on the brand of bottle bac used you as well are cycled, Dr Tim’s is ten days, fritz is two days each brand has its deposition time all on file. We basically rely not on posted params but rather bottle bac + total days underwater and if testing is wanted, we look for motion down ammonia only and you have all those factors in place above. Change your water and begin anytime after day 10-15 if you really want to lock it in.
 
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shew

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Let me know what you think about nitrite per page one, we do a couple reefs where changing out the wastewater that had + ammonia and + nitrite made all the difference, the old rules used to require that we wait for it to self-clear but thats no longer a requirement


regarding high ammonia we showed it won’t matter using the 100% water change example thread

the way our cycle thread differs from all cycling threads is we don’t call a cycle done when ammonia and nitrite are zero. It’s hard to get them to zero, thats where the concept of a stuck cycle comes from so we use other means, # of days underwater, bottle bac factor which Dr Reef has already measured in terms of # days to completion, and whether ammonia can be shown moving down from a higher setting.

Depending on the brand of bottle bac used you as well are cycled, Dr Tim’s is ten days, fritz is two days each brand has its deposition time all on file. We basically rely not on posted params but rather bottle bac + total days underwater and if testing is wanted, we look for motion down ammonia only and you have all those factors in place above. Change your water and begin anytime after day 10-15 if you really want to lock it in.


Just re-read this whole thread, very informative. Ammonia hit what looks like 0.1ish ppm today, and today is 10 days since dr tim's was added. Nitrites are 2 ppm still (3 days in a row), but nitrites don't matter ;) Nitrates were 10 ppm, down from 20/30. Going to do a large water change in the next day or so (probably 25-30%) and add then in some fish this week assuming things are on track!


119669914_712901362595049_8753190350160030043_n.jpg
 
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brandon429

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your post makes for a perfect entry here thank you for writing + pics, the final say in cycling is living bioload. An uncycled reef, all of them, or a stalled cycle, cannot keep living things.

the #1 thing we want in new reef cycling is the for sure start date, the date a convention might start we need to reef at

we think it’s that submersion time range above as the patterned safe start for feed + dr. Tims

we like to feed lightly, and still change water a little as safety for feeding timing in the new tank, but it’s ready then appreciate the update
 
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brandon429

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This poster asks in the chemistry forum if his cycled tank is uncycling, due to adding competing bacterial products. The answer is no



*he did the reverse of what we collect here, he has fish living in the system, what we use here to prove a cycle is ready, and ONLY his non seneye testers are causing him grief.

His tank is cycled, and his fish aren't burnt nor about to die. He is simply dealing with non seneye testing, this is why new science is required to get things back into consistency.

The reason I'm linking that thread is so we can watch for update proof. if all his fish die by Wednesday, I'm on the hook for a bad call.
 
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brandon429

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So far in our thread we have a few cycles on file thought to be stalled at the start, that never were stalled, and now are running with fish


That post above is another one where the cycle seems stalled, but is not. we always see these recurring themes in stalled cycle threads, the patterns are very predictable:

-multiple purchases of bottled bac, though the first one worked. this alignment is paying bottle bac sellers massive amounts of cash they do not deserve to have, the sale is based on a false premise. its a feel good buy, its not required.

-several forum posters backs up their doubt agreeing the bacteria have been limited in some way. We groupthink stalled cycles into existence with our non seneye test readings we buy lock, stock and barrel.

-factoring nitrite in the cycle, exclude nitrite in reef aquarium cycling its one less misread to make you wait

-using non seneye testers to base 100% of the permission to begin, and de-valuing submersion time as a factor for an allowed start. He is nearly two months, there is no cycle chart on the planet written for two months, they dont take that long. he bought more bottle bac just now because the sales industry is priming us all to be that way. doubt in what bacteria can do is lining their pockets with cash.

-no clear start times. if he was invited to a macna, or had needs for a tank to be ready to receive new animals, he could not. Another month wait is required.

confidence in what bacteria do saves money and loses the least animals, it should be the preferred cycling technique.








*the clues posted where we know he is cycled:

-double the charted times on any written cycle
-presence of nitrogen conversion: 50 ppm nitrate.
-ammonia went down, more than once
-how is our first three cycles on this thread? If he changed water, and began, he'd be the fourth unstuck cycle but its hard to overcome 30 years of poor microbiology information in our hobby.



***there are benefits to his cycle approach, we are merely hashing here what bacteria can do with confidence
___________
By not starting with fish, he's on track for the disease protocol system of his choice. quick fish stocking violates today's best disease protocols, unless those were specially-QT'ined fish depending on the goals for the reef

-he wont have to battle the uglies phase so early, he's not blasting fish waste and bright lighting across all white surfaces with $150 corals stacking up.
A cycled reef can certainly handle that bioload, feed and waste but the uglies it causes are a real concern

given this long wait caused by doubt in what bacteria can do, given to us by the teachers of reef technique and our peers, he has side benefits of maturation in place before adding bioload.
 
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brandon429

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This cycle is not stuck whatsoever, her fish have been alive months and months, first clue.



false stuck cycle. there is no reef tank that allows .25-.5 uncontrolled ammonia after cycling, for days, where fish live and feed and act normally it simply cannot occur.

The reason she tested no ammonia in unused water is because there isn't any nitrogen conversion to overreport, its a nitrogen free sample. a reef tank is not, we can see proof of oxidation with three part ammonia testing, however.



She is about to make tank changes using unverified api test kits alone, all three params for cycling are out of whack though her setup is using substrates aged 6 years-6 mos, none of it is new.

People will grip onto a test read and not let it go whatsoever
they will make purchases and offsets to address a perceived inability of bacteria, which is never the case. our filter bac are always able but the makers and sellers of bottle bac will not tell us that

they put out videos on how to unstick cycles that are not stuck whatsoever

no cycle degrades, gets weak, starves, gets undone, stalls past a pre-known close date or needs boosting half a year after beginning with a full bioload tank. The entire myth of stalled cycles we're here to bust.

Every 48 hours we keep a set of fish alive in a reef tank, that's re-proof of cycle completion. You cannot keep fish alive in an uncycled reef at that stock level past 48 hours, the whole tank will die. the reef tank is using substrate from 3 years ago, false stalled cycle
 
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brandon429

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Let's do an interforum analysis of a claimed stalled cycle.


Read this thread and relate it to key terms here, ways we discern if cycles are stuck or not, and name his acceptable start date/when can he for sure add the clowns and they'll be safe


remember, in this thread we dont have ho-hum start dates

maybes


we deal in certainties. the entrants here got a specific time they can add fish, they did, and the fish are doing well.

break down that stalled cycle above/post your commentary but be unique in this way: relate it specifically to tanks in this thread and ways we deemed those tanks stalled or not stalled, use our examples as comparisons for him so we don't further a bunch of start date guessing (that thread has no definitive answer posted in it, it has maybes)

does he report ammonia motion and did he meet the # days on a cycling chart for ammonia control would be example analytical points

*if anyone has dual membership, invite any of those posters to review here with us* we are site friendly with nano-reef.com I just only post at rtr
or link our thread to them and they can review the posts there and we'll watch their analysis unfold.



false stuck cycle at four months.
 
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brandon429

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Nitrite does not factor in reefing.

 

316Fin

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Hey, I just started my cycle less than 2 days ago with microbacter 7/stability and have been adding food in every day. So today I figured I would see if I was starting to develop any ammonia in the tank, just to to verify that it was working the way it should(my first saltwater tank). Today when I tested the ammonia it was reading zero, or at least not the first colour on my chart. I thought that was weird, so I tested for nitrates. Low and behold, I have a small amount of nitrates! Does that mean my tank is cycled already?? I was expecting this to take at least a week or 2. I am using salifert test kits, and also the water has become cloudy with what looks like a bacterial bloom;Nailbiting
 
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brandon429

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heres one
Vics tank is done cycling, not stuck.

we saved $ here


going off old cycle rules, 3 param compliance, he‘s stuck and cannot proceed, must buy more stuff to unstick the cycle.

And he must wait longer, can’t make any desired start date on time.



going off new cycling rules, this thread, he can actually begin reefing last week and doesn’t need to buy anything.


see the difference? it’s stark between old vs new cycling rules. Old cycling rules are set to get your cash and don’t work any better than our exact start date cycling approach which is designed to save your cash and cause less reef wasting.
 
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brandon429

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Anyone have a stuck cycle we can unstick, without changing or buying anything? :)
lookin for more work tests.


@316Fin so sorry missed your post, I didn’t get the heads up and missed responding. How is the cycle and clouding? on the 19th had been working a stuck thread and just posted it without checking for updates, hated to miss ur post
 

316Fin

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Anyone have a stuck cycle we can unstick, without changing or buying anything? :)
lookin for more work tests.


@316Fin so sorry missed your post, I didn’t get the heads up and missed responding. How is the cycle and clouding? on the 19th had been working a stuck thread and just posted it without checking for updates, hated to miss ur post
Hey no worries! I was worried since the clouding wasn't going away. So I tried a bunch of carbon and added some Dr. tim's bac as well as dosing their ammonium. The clouding cleared, and am now reading significant nitrates. But do I need to continue to dose the source of ammonia in order to keep the bacteria growing? I am still at least a month away from getting my first fish. Originally I thought it would take a few days for the food to break down, but I never got an ammonia reading until I dosed the ammonium, is that normal? Also, I was watching the lecture by Dr. Tim and he states that for growth of the nitrifying bacteria, they require some source of phosphates. So I tried throwing in a small amount of food as a source of phosphate. But it is not breaking down. Do I need to re-dose the heterotrophic bacteria?
 

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