Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites!

Humblefish

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** This information was originally posted here: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites.87/ **

*** The information contained here is only EXPERIMENTAL at the moment. Use at your own risk!!! ***

So, I wanted to start a discussing regarding the use of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) in conjunction with Tank Transfer Method. For those who may not be familiar with TTM read this: Tank Transfer Method

TTM is an effective (non-chemical) treatment for Marine Ich; however the weakness has always been its inability to eradicate other external parasites/worms such as Velvet, brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians. What if combining TTM with H2O2 could widen the spectrum of treatment?? ;Nailbiting

In this field trial, a single treatment with 75 mg/L hydrogen peroxide greatly reduced levels of Amyloodinium (velvet) infestation, and a second treatment 6 days later reduced Amyloodinium trophonts to a nondetectable level: The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis

IME; any chemical (e.g. formalin, acriflavine) capable of removing Velvet trophonts right on a fish is also capable of killing "surface" parasites & worms such as brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians (Black Ich). So I am theorizing that a "Hybrid TTM" using H2O2 could eliminate most external parasites/worms by following this protocol:

Day 1 – Fish is placed in initial QT. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 4), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 150 ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide

Day 4 – Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.

Day 7 – Repeat. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 10), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 150 ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide

Day 10 – Repeat.

Day 13Repeat and done (fish should now be parasite & worm free!!!)

^^
Please note that H2O2 is only dosed twice, 6 days apart and for a maximum of 30 minutes. This is to ensure all velvet trophonts have been eliminated and also lines up for worms that need to be treated a second time due to hatchlings. Everything else about doing TTM stays exactly the same!

Will this work?? I honestly don't know. The science behind it is sound and everything lines up, but it needs to be thoroughly tested before going mainstream. Since starting my business, I'm finding myself with less & less time to experiment so I'm hoping some of you will pick up my slack. ;)

Why TTM is still needed with H2O2: IMO; it is unlikely that H2O2 can penetrate through a fish's epithelium (outer skin layer) to reach Ich trophonts. Eliminating "surface" parasites & worms is a more realistic expectation. So, TTM is still needed to prophylactically address the possibility of Ich!

Other thoughts/concerns:
  1. Avoid using H2O2 on fish with an open wound or obvious infection. Although H2O2 is an antiseptic, it has been found to slow the healing process and possibly worsen scarring by killing the healthy cells surrounding a cut.
  2. It is only reasonable to assume that H2O2 treats parasites/worms on the outside of a fish. Internal parasites & worms will need to be treated separately: Internal Issues
  3. Post treatment, it is always wise to observe the fish in a non-medicated observation tank. This applies whether you are utilizing Traditional TTM or Hybrid TTM, to ensure treatment was successful. Using black mollies in this observation tank can help ensure no diseases are still present: Black Molly Quarantine
 
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HotRocks

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Thank you for sharing this! Very good stuff!

Upside less invasive as far as medications go, Downside is the WORK of TTM ;)
 
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^^ Just wanted to point out that there's no reason why 45 mins in formalin couldn't be used in lieu of H2O2: Formalin (use the bath treatment dosage)

45 minutes in formalin has the same killing effect on surface parasites/worms, and you can continue to run filtration/pumps with it in the water. However, it must be proper formalin (37% formaldehyde) for consistency. The main drawback to using formalin is it is a known carcinogen.

Everything stays the same as above, just do a 45 min formalin bath instead of a 30 min H2O2 bath prior to transferring. (I know many hobbyists already doing this with success.)

Further reading on using formalin to control fish parasites: http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Use-of-Formalin-to-Control-Fish-Parasites.pdf
 

Biglurr54

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This is awesome if it works. I will start designing a system to make this a bit easier and track my result. I'm a big fan of ttm and have it down so it's relatively easy. Only issue is that I can't treat for velvet with ttm. I have a day 4 transfer tomorrow with a stary blennie. I'll let you all know how it goes.
 

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Well I volunteer to try this for ya. I have 2 small puffers for my son in route. Every puffer I have received via online so far has ich and flukes. TTM and hypo is my preferred method for puffers also, so doing ttm and hypo along with h2o2 is a good option for them if it works. Especially if it will remove the next step of eliminating flukes and such via a different method.

The next question I have is about treating internal parasites while doing this. I normally load up pieces of shrimp with medicine and feed. Being as the peroxide is done right before transfer this should still be acceptable as the food is already consumed. Am I right in that?
 
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The next question I have is about treating internal parasites while doing this. I normally load up pieces of shrimp with medicine and feed. Being as the peroxide is done right before transfer this should still be acceptable as the food is already consumed. Am I right in that?
Yes, that is fine.
 

Eagle_Steve

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This also got my son thinking. I love when a 15 year old mine simplifies things. It made him wonder if this could be something to do in a fowlr tank. Granted it would be a lot of peroxide, but without ttm so to speak. Here is his idea below.

Treat entire tank with recommended dose.
Let fish sit for the recommended time.
Remove fish and house in temp tank for a few hours as h2o2 degrades quickly.
Put fish back in and repeat every few days.

Do you think this is a possibility? I told him I would ask lol.

If you are catching the hatches of the parasite and knocking them out, in theory 2-3 weeks of every 4 days of dosing could kill all parasites. The few hours in a temp tank eliminates an ammonia issues in a temp tank, saving someone from using prime.

As for the beneficial bacteria, I told him that might suffer to. His response was “then how do tanks that people peroxide dose recover”. I assume not as much peroxide lol, but I have never done it so don’t know.

Feel free to comment as needed. No one here is going to get whacked out (his words not mine lol)
 

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Those of you willing to experiment and document, thank you! This could be the way of the future as far as treatment goes. I'm grateful @Humblefish posted this here so we can get some feedback!
 

revhtree

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** This information was originally posted here: https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites.87/ **

*** The information contained here is only EXPERIMENTAL at the moment. Use at your own risk!!! ***

So, I wanted to start a discussing regarding the use of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) in conjunction with Tank Transfer Method. For those who may not be familiar with TTM read this: Tank Transfer Method

TTM is an effective (non-chemical) treatment for Marine Ich; however the weakness has always been its inability to eradicate other external parasites/worms such as Velvet, brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians. What if combining TTM with H2O2 could widen the spectrum of treatment?? ;Nailbiting

In this field trial, a single treatment with 75 mg/L hydrogen peroxide greatly reduced levels of Amyloodinium (velvet) infestation, and a second treatment 6 days later reduced Amyloodinium trophonts to a nondetectable level: The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis

IME; any chemical (e.g. formalin, acriflavine) capable of removing Velvet trophonts right on a fish is also capable of killing "surface" parasites & worms such as brook, uronema, flukes and turbellarians (Black Ich). So I am theorizing that a "Hybrid TTM" using H2O2 could eliminate most external parasites/worms by following this protocol:

Day 1 – Fish is placed in initial QT. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 4), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 75ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide

Day 4 – Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.

Day 7 – Repeat. 30 minutes before transfer (Day 10), turn off all pumps/water movement and dose 75ppm H2O2 as outlined here: Hydrogen Peroxide

Day 10 – Repeat.

Day 13Repeat and done (fish should now be parasite & worm free!!!)

^^
Please note that H2O2 is only dosed twice, 6 days apart and for a maximum of 30 minutes. This is to ensure all velvet trophonts have been eliminated and also lines up for worms that need to be treated a second time due to hatchlings. Everything else about doing TTM stays exactly the same!

Will this work?? I honestly don't know. The science behind it is sound and everything lines up, but it needs to be thoroughly tested before going mainstream. Since starting my business, I'm finding myself with less & less time to experiment so I'm hoping some of you will pick up my slack. ;)

Why TTM is still needed with H2O2: IMO; it is unlikely that H2O2 can penetrate through a fish's epithelium (outer skin layer) to reach Ich trophonts. Eliminating "surface" parasites & worms is a more realistic expectation. So, TTM is still needed to prophylactically address the possibility of Ich!

Other thoughts/concerns:
  1. Avoid using H2O2 on fish with an open wound or obvious infection. Although H2O2 is an antiseptic, it has been found to slow the healing process and possibly worsen scarring by killing the healthy cells surrounding a cut.
  2. It is only reasonable to assume that H2O2 treats parasites/worms on the outside of a fish. Internal parasites & worms will need to be treated separately: Internal Issues
  3. Post treatment, it is always wise to observe the fish in a non-medicated observation tank. This applies whether you are utilizing Traditional TTM or Hybrid TTM, to ensure treatment was successful. Using black mollies in this observation tank can help ensure no diseases are still present: Black Molly Quarantine
Bobby thanks for sharing!
 
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Eagle_Steve

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Those of you willing to experiment and document, thank you! This could be the way of the future as far as treatment goes. I'm grateful @Humblefish posted this here so we can get some feedback!
How would be best to document this outside of fish reaction? Any way I can help, I am glad to do it. The puffers arrived a little late and are in a sterile tank now to reduce the salinity over the next 24 hours. Once that gets done, treatment will begin. Loaded food will be given in the morning after they get a bit of a rest.

Edit: they have ich as expected and are spotty, but they also appear to have a trace of velvet as well. Big spots and little spots is never good. I see no flukes visible this time, but that doesn’t mean anything. So, sadly, they are the perfect candidates for this and this will begin as quick as possible. Luckily their breathing is still normal and their gills look good.
 

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So excited you posted this @Humblefish! Your experience, knowledge, and willingness to try new things is greatly appreciated.
 

Umair

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since i've seen people on forums using H2O2 in their reef tanks to kill off algae successfully, just for my knowledge can we use H2O2 to fight off velvet in a reef tank?

Turning off pumps for 30 minutes and doing two doses of H2O2 6 days apart.
 
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since i've seen people on forums using H2O2 in their reef tanks to kill off algae successfully, just for my knowledge can we use H2O2 to fight off velvet in a reef tank?

Turning off pumps for 30 minutes and doing two doses of H2O2 6 days apart.
There is some anecdotal evidence that dosing 1 ml per 10 gal (total water volume) may do just that. However, you would need to dose religiously every 12 hours for at least 30 days. Just dosing 2x 6 days apart doesn't work without transferring the fish to a clean/sterile tank.

^^ I will once again stress that the above is highly experimental. Especially dosing in a reef tank where light (and other factors) will quickly break down H2O2.
 

neilp2006

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Neil, I am considering doin this. @neilp2006
This is why I never go on vacation - I miss the good stuff!

Holy carp! This is HUGE if it works as theorized.

Thanks Vic!!


And huge thanks to @Humblefish

Now- let’s find something that nukes velvet in 7 days and be done with all this hassle!
 
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Now- let’s find something that nukes velvet in 7 days and be done with all this hassle!
I am experimenting with higher concentrations during a 30 min bath. To figure out which diseases H2O2 can and cannot eliminate in one shot.

But for now the 75ppm 30 min bath should be safe since I have already used it on over 50 different species of fish.
 
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