Hydros sense port anomaly

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

This is an example of the Hydros level sensor causing a hardware anomaly that negatively impacts temperature measurement. This video starts with my level sensor being unplugged, plugged in (at 7 seconds), then unplugged (at 41 seconds).

The level sensor was awesome until it wasn’t, it failed in a way that screws with the sense port voltage, and that screwed voltage means the Hydros can’t properly measure temperature.

Are all Hydros devices with sense ports impacted? No clue, but you can mitigate this unfortunate engineering by picking one or more of the options below.

1. REPLACE YOUR ROUND LEVEL SENSOR IMMEDIATELY.
2. Set alarms and use an Inkbird, but that doesn’t help if you’re not home.
3. Do not use the round level sensor and the temp probe on the same Hydros device. Buy another Hydros with sense ports, add that to your collective, and move the level sensor to the new Hydros.

BTW, for redundancy’s sake, you should always use an Inkbird or other temperature-sensing device along with your controller and/or temperature-sensing heater.

This is real. This anomaly can kill your tank. I’m happy to show the failure live.

 

[fishface NJ]

I downloaded your video. It doesn't show while playing. Can you download it to YouTube

 

[BAMatter]

Interesting… I’m wondering if there are any other issues similar to this that translate to the alkalinity testing side of things with X10 probe ports, pump calibration, etc… I’ve been working with Coralvue on an issue (they’ve been great) but my X10/iV randomly started testing about 2dkh low, mid-batch of reagent. Haven’t resolved the issue yet, but for some reason I think it’s something internal with the controller.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

I downloaded your video. It doesn't show while playing. Can you download it to YouTube

It plays. Note the change at 7 seconds and again at 41 seconds.

Maybe what you're suggesting is that your computer can't handle .MOV. If that's the case, download and install VLC from videolan dot org.

 

[n2585722]

All the sense ports on a controller share the same 5v power source. If something were to fail and load down that supply you would need to power down the controller and power it backup to get the voltage back on. The temp sensor uses a digital input on the sense port and the single optical water level sensor uses a analog input on the sense port. The only thing common between the two is the 5v supply. It sounds like water must have leaked into the water level sensor where the wire enters the sensor. I have one that I have been using over a year but I did add some silicon RTV to the area where the wire enters the sensor before I started using it. All my other water level sensors are float switches that I have had in use for over 8 years. I do have 2 temps sensors in the sump and they are connected to different controllers but both are used in my heater output settings. Below is a screenshot of my inputs showing the two temp sensors and a screenshot of one of my heater outputs. I do have thermostats on the heaters also and they are set about 3 degrees higher than the Hydros heater settings. Both temp sensors have the safe range set on them.

 

[braaap]

This isn't likely kill a properly setup tank.

Your heater should turn on and off on its own. The controller should be your backup. Can even set power safe notifications for failures. You should sense the failure. About the only way you have an issue is if both items fail.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

Here's a copy of the same vid transcoded. Hopefully, that helps those who can't view the original.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

This isn't likely kill a properly setup tank.

Your heater should turn on and off on its own. The controller should be your backup. You should sense the failure. About the only way you have an issue is if both items fail.

Meaning it can. Relying on the heater's thermometer to save your tank is risky. Redundancy should be the expectation and how we teach hobbyists. I use, at a minimum, two functional layers of temp control.

 

[braaap]

Meaning it can. Relying on the heater's thermometer to save your tank is risky. Redundancy should be the expectation and how we teach hobbyists. I use, at a minimum, two functional layers of temp control.

A 1 in 100,000 odds probably. You should always use your heater controls first. Power cycling them on and off by the controller will wear them out. Then you use the controller to cut power. Properly installed systems are important. Advocating otherwise is bad advice.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

A 1 in 100,000 odds probably. You should always use your heater controls first. Power cycling them on and off by the controller will wear them out. Then you use the controller to cut power. Properly installed systems are important. Advocating otherwise is bad advice.

You have no data to support that opinion. Probably.

I use thermometer-less heaters with an Inkbird, and I power cycle my heaters with a controller. The Inkbird is the failsafe. The controller is the primary. Simple and effective.

 

[n2585722]

You have no data to support that opinion. Probably.

I use thermometer-less heaters with an Inkbird, and I power cycle my heaters with a controller. The Inkbird is the failsafe. The controller is the primary. Simple and effective.

The InkBird is a controller and has to boot up every time it is powered back up. I don't like constantly powering down or up controllers. I think the safer way to go with the InkBird would be to let it control the heaters until it get out of range then power it down with the Hydros as a backup. If you want to use the Hydros as primary use heaters with built in thermostats and then set them about 3 degrees higher than the Hydros like I do. I have only had one heater fail in over 8 years of having the tank setup and that was before the Hydros was controlling my heaters They were still on the Archon then. I have the heaters on my XP8 so if the thermostat does turn one off I will get an alert that the power is out of range. The thermostats in the heaters should last a long time since they are staying on and not going on and off.

 

[BeanAnimal]

A 1 in 100,000 odds probably. You should always use your heater controls first. Power cycling them on and off by the controller will wear them out. Then you use the controller to cut power. Properly installed systems are important. Advocating otherwise is bad advice.

It is the other way around. The heater should never do the actual temperature control. The internal thermostat should act as the fail-safe only.

With the exception of PTC heaters, there are two types of onboard control.

The first is a bi-metal thermostat and contact controlled by a helper spring in some cases. Turn the dial and put more pressure on the bi-metal contact. The common failure modes are welded contacts and metal fatigue allow the bi-metal strip to fall into permanently on position.

If you set the control to a degree or two higher than the controller, then the internal thermostat never cycles out of the ON position and there is no metal fatigue or related arcing on state change. So no wear on the thermostat and contacts means no failure and it can act as a fail safe, opening the contact if the controller overheats the tank by a degree or two.

The second type of on board temperature control is typically a very cheap SCR circuit that has no fail-safe protection. SCRs typically fail ON. I would never use an aquarium heater with a built in digital control circuit.

The controller’s power relay is going to be far more reliable than the heaters control mechanism. The failure mode is going to typically human logic due to unintended programming side effects in complex systems. So statistically, magnitudes more reliable than allowing the heater to mange things.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

I think the safer way to go with the InkBird would be to let it control the heaters until it get out of range then power it down with the Hydros as a backup.

That only works if the Hydros Sense port is functioning. In my case, the level sensor messed up the Sense port to the point that the temp reading was way way off, and the heater outlet was turned on.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The InkBird is a controller and has to boot up every time it is powered back up. I don't like constantly powering down or up controllers. I think the safer way to go with the InkBird would be to let it control the heaters until it get out of range then power it down with the Hydros as a backup.

Correct in the case of an actual inline controller like a Ranco or InkBird. Though I am not sold on the reliability of the inkbird and prefer Ranco or other commercial/industrial controllers.

 

[braaap]

It is the other way around. The heater should never do the actual temperature control. The internal thermostat should act as the fail-safe only.

With the exception of PTC heaters, there are two types of onboard control.

The first is a bi-metal thermostat and contact controlled by a helper spring in some cases. Turn the dial and put more pressure on the bi-metal contact. The common failure modes are welded contacts and metal fatigue allow the bi-metal strip to fall into permanently on position.

If you set the control to a degree or two higher than the controller, then the internal thermostat never cycles out of the ON position and there is no metal fatigue or related arcing on state change. So no wear on the thermostat and contacts means no failure and it can act as a fail safe, opening the contact if the controller overheats the tank by a degree or two.

The second type of on board temperature control is typically a very cheap SCR circuit that has no fail-safe protection. SCRs typically fail ON. I would never use an aquarium heater with a built in digital control circuit.

The controller’s power relay is going to be far more reliable than the heaters control mechanism. The failure mode is going to typically human logic due to unintended programming side effects in complex systems. So statistically, magnitudes more reliable than allowing the heater to mange things.

That’s wrong. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Do what you want. I’d rather the heater fail on and the controller turn it off. I’ve had them fail from being turned on and off with a controller. I’ve not once had them fail when set properly and controlled with their thermostat and backed up by the controller.

I literally have 20 year old glass jager heaters that have been run like this.

 

[n2585722]

That only works if the Hydros Sense port is functioning. In my case, the level sensor messed up the Sense port to the point that the temp reading was way way off, and the heater outlet was turned on.

FYI, we had rolling blackouts several years ago where the power was off 50% of the time and it lasted a week. The outside temp never got over 32 degrees that whole time. The house is all electric so when the power was off there was no heating. It did get pretty cold in the house. As an example if the power was off for 4 hrs it would then stay on 4 hrs. If it was off for an hour it would stay on an hour. The tank did get down just below 70 degrees. When the power was back on for good it took a couple of day for it to get back up to 76 degrees. That is also when I lost the only heater I have had fail. It failed in the off state so it was not heating but that could have been a blessing in this case sine it took longer for the tank to heat back up. I did not loose any fish or corals during or after this event. I got lucky since others around me lost their whole tanks during the event. I did have a backup supply for my flow pumps so they continued to run the whole time but at lower flow rate when the power was out. So I would be more worried about a heater staying on when it is suppose to be off and one that does not turn back on.

 

[BeanAnimal]

That’s wrong. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Do what you want. I’d rather the heater fail on and the controller turn it off. I’ve had them fail from being turned on and off with a controller. I’ve not once had them fail when set properly and controlled with their thermostat and backed up by the controller.

That is not how we design industrial control mechanisms.

Cheap mechanical thermostats have an extremely high failure rate due to thermal and mechanical wear. This is not a debatable subject. They are highly prone to failure in the ON position.

Compare that cyclic failure rate to a proper power relay switching the same load and the you will find it to be magnitudes lower.

While both setups offer a redundant fail-safe for over temperature, one places the load on a device highly prone to fail and the other on a device designed not to fail.

In other words you are turning the heater thermostat into a wear part and almost certainly guaranteeing it will fail and at the same time using the power relay that is designed for high current and high cycle rates as a permanently closed contact.

 

[n2585722]

That only works if the Hydros Sense port is functioning. In my case, the level sensor messed up the Sense port to the point that the temp reading was way way off, and the heater outlet was turned on.

Do you just have a single controller or is it a collective. I have a collective and have 2 temp sensors in the sump. Both are used in the heater settings so either one can turn off the heaters. If I had one fail when I was not at home I would remove the failed one and set the remaining as the required input on the heater output. Each temp sensor is on a different controller.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

Each temp sensor is on a different controller.

This matters, and if you used a level sensor, it should not be on the same controller as one of the temp sensors.

I have a single controller, but I'll be adding the Minnow to see if the newer units are susceptible to the same fault.

 

[n2585722]

This matters, and if you used a level sensor, it should not be on the same controller as one of the temp sensors.

I have a single controller, but I'll be adding the Minnow to see if the newer units are susceptible to the same fault.

I have an X4 I have had for 4 years and it has a temp sensor on it along with three other devices and I have not had an issue other than once I had to unplug the temp sensor and plug it back in to reset it. The temp sensor does have a processor in it. That is the only way I have found to reboot it. That unit is is my garage with no heating and cooling and it gets over 100 degrees in the summer outside so the garage would be over 110 degrees at that time. It also gets down in the low 40's at time but if it is going to be in the 20's or lower I plug in a space heater set on low just to keep it above freezing in the garage. No issues with that. I actually have 5 temps sensor in all in the collective. Two are in the sump. One is in the mix tank and one is in the air in the garage. The last one is in my iV beaker. So far I have only had to reset a couple of them a couple of times. The optical water level sensor is on a port on my X10 and that is the same one that the second temp sensor is on.So far no issues with either reading correctly.