I really wish....

[Brew12]

So I never thought an sps “expert” is needed, but it has somehow evolved to that in the thread. I just want a way to weed out ppl that don’t have specific corals from reading the back of a bottle/box and regurgitating it as experienced advice. This happened Saturday on a help thread where a hobbyists slashed back at my reply and they don’t even keep Sps. Drives me nuts. I am well aware there are many ways to keep sps happy and I enjoy seeing all different successful methods, but I would like ppl with no actual experience and or success in these areas to hold off on offering advice on things they know nothing about. I live by the motto “I would rather be assumed a fool than open my mouth and prove it”

I understand exactly where you are coming from. The problem becomes how you filter people like that out? In the anonymous world that is the internet we can all have our PHD's in Marine Biology and have thriving SPS dominant 800g systems while only doing 5 minutes of maintenance a week.
I am always appreciative when people are open and honest about the comments they make. I have no issue when someone says "I haven't done it myself, but I know product XYZ claims to be able to help". I have more of a problem when someone tells me my NO3 is too high and they have nothing but zoas in their nano.

We have some members here who have given lectures at MACNA and/or had peer reviewed papers published. I try to remember who they are and I give them a lot of credence. Some are easy, like RHF and Dana Riddle. Others are very hard to identify. One thing I caution people about is not to get caught up with the fancy banners under the names. This member is an absolute expert in the field of reefing, but I'm sure many people discount him without a second thought. Doesn't have a single banner......

Otherwise, I'm a big fan of build threads to evaluate if I want to follow someones advice. Some build threads are more social and a hang out for friends, and those can be nice. If I'm taking advice, I want it from someone that shares the positives and negatives they go through. I consider it a warning sign if a build thread has a fairly sudden and dramatic change but it isn't discussed. I'll also try and make sure they keep their tank in a manner similar to mine.

 

[SeaDweller]

So I never thought an sps “expert” is needed, but it has somehow evolved to that in the thread. I just want a way to weed out ppl that don’t have specific corals from reading the back of a bottle/box and regurgitating it as experienced advice. This happened Saturday on a help thread where a hobbyists slashed back at my reply and they don’t even keep Sps. Drives me nuts. I am well aware there are many ways to keep sps happy and I enjoy seeing all different successful methods, but I would like ppl with no actual experience and or success in these areas to hold off on offering advice on things they know nothing about. I live by the motto “I would rather be assumed a fool than open my mouth and prove it”

This hobby is difficult, even for people who have been in it for years. To expose oneself to the masses and elements of the internet and a forum full of ideas and opinions of “this worked for me, try this” in such a niche portion of a difficult hobby can be frustrating.

Then to give advice is even more frustrating. I can see why many people/vets log on to ANY forum and just throw their hands up after 5 mins and bounce.

 

[SeaDweller]

@SeaDweller why the tears??

Those aren’t tears, that’s cloud coverage.

 

[jda]

You can at least filter some of it out - at least try and get what you can. People who have no tanks and no experience have thousands of posts on here with long histories of experienced people telling them otherwise and they go unchecked with too many new people believing them just because they are loud and present. They could at least have a badge that indicates that they do not reef and that what they post is just from internet surfing, the hard work of others and not actual experience. In the olden days of publishing, they would never get vetted and it is a shame that the internet has given too much of a voice to people who do not deserve it. While it is ok that everybody has a voice, not all voices should be equal - this is not a millennial soccer game ala 2006 with participation trophies (I joke - please don't send me PMs).

You all have done a decent job of stopping the paid shills which were doing damage to the average hobbyist too... how is this any different?

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Those aren’t tears, that’s cloud coverage.

Wrong thread you cotton headed ninny muggins

 

[jda]

You can also encourage people to ask for a poster's experience and longevity level instead of removing posts that do so when people complain. This is not bullying... this is just what every other type of situation expects in the world. Can you imagine a doctoral student getting mad because his prof wants his sources or experience documented. ...or a resume with just your contact info (and a nice scent if you are Elle Woods) with nothing to quantify your experience on it.

if somebody gets upset if another poster asks for their experience, then tell them to get tough and grow up, in a nicer way if this is not nice enough for you.

Too many people think that anytime somebody questions or disagrees with them, that they are being a bully, belligerent or unhelpful, when in fact the true bad-***** of the world will listen to all of this to learn and get better. “Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it” by the insightful Tyrion Lannister is good advice to live by. Weak people look for any reason to turn away from a hard truth rather than one single reason to address it.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

You can also encourage people to ask for a poster's experience and longevity level instead of removing posts that do so when people complain. This is not bullying... this is just what every other type of situation expects in the world. Can you imagine a doctoral student getting mad because his prof wants his sources or experience documented. ...or a resume with just your contact info (and a nice scent if you are Elle Woods) with nothing to quantify your experience on it.

if somebody gets upset if another poster asks for their experience, then tell them to get tough and grow up, in a nicer way if this is not nice enough for you.

Too many people think that anytime somebody questions or disagrees with them, that they are being a bully, belligerent or unhelpful, when in fact the true bad-***** of the world will listen to all of this to learn and get better. “Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it” by the insightful Tyrion Lannister is good advice to live by. Weak people look for any reason to turn away from a hard truth rather than one single reason to address it.

Game of thrones and Legally Blonde references. Nicely done

 

[revhtree]

You can also encourage people to ask for a poster's experience and longevity level instead of removing posts that do so when people complain. This is not bullying... this is just what every other type of situation expects in the world. Can you imagine a doctoral student getting mad because his prof wants his sources or experience documented. ...or a resume with just your contact info (and a nice scent if you are Elle Woods) with nothing to quantify your experience on it.

if somebody gets upset if another poster asks for their experience, then tell them to get tough and grow up, in a nicer way if this is not nice enough for you.

Too many people think that anytime somebody questions or disagrees with them, that they are being a bully, belligerent or unhelpful, when in fact the true bad-***** of the world will listen to all of this to learn and get better. “Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it” by the insightful Tyrion Lannister is good advice to live by. Weak people look for any reason to turn away from a hard truth rather than one single reason to address it.

The bullying I'm referring too is not asking for someone's "credentials." I'm talking about people who roam the forum looking for a fight or are just super disrespectful to other posters. I agree with you BTW!

 

[SeaDweller]

You can also encourage people to ask for a poster's experience and longevity level instead of removing posts that do so when people complain. This is not bullying... this is just what every other type of situation expects in the world. Can you imagine a doctoral student getting mad because his prof wants his sources or experience documented. ...or a resume with just your contact info (and a nice scent if you are Elle Woods) with nothing to quantify your experience on it.

if somebody gets upset if another poster asks for their experience, then tell them to get tough and grow up, in a nicer way if this is not nice enough for you.

Too many people think that anytime somebody questions or disagrees with them, that they are being a bully, belligerent or unhelpful, when in fact the true bad-***** of the world will listen to all of this to learn and get better. “Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it” by the insightful Tyrion Lannister is good advice to live by. Weak people look for any reason to turn away from a hard truth rather than one single reason to address it.

I like THIS jda. Doug’s on a roll! Next thing you know, he’s gonna reboot that 240! Oh wait...

 

[revhtree]

So quick thought that maybe we could explore and try out in the sps forum. How about we put together a team of SPS "experts" or whatever we want to call them. We would vet them by several criteria. Stuff like build thread, time in the hobby and the best photo of their tank among other things. Then they would have to have a photo of their sps tank in their signature, they would get a special user badge or something like that.

Is this something we should explore? If so I'll start another thread so we can discuss it.

 

[Brew12]

So quick thought that maybe we could explore and try out in the sps forum. How about we put together a team of SPS "experts" or whatever we want to call them. We would vet them by several criteria. Stuff like build thread, time in the hobby and the best photo of their tank among other things. Then they would have to have a photo of their sps tank in their signature, they would get a special user badge or something like that.

Is this something we should explore? If so I'll start another thread so we can discuss it.

I wouldn't trust anyone with an FTS in their signature. Seems shady.

 

[ycnibrc]

Lol this topic is way too complicated im going back to hide in my zeovit world less complicated there . I vote for Chaswood79 and seadweller. They are both active, helpful and knowledgeable. Lol by the way dont vote for someone log in once a month. I see help thread pop up everyday.

 

[jda]

I have had posts deleted and edited when I have dared to question some experience or ask for more detail when a poster appears to have no root in reality or is clearly not speaking from experience . This is nearly always after I have posted a longer explanation about something to try and help and it is clear that I am not just jumping in to start some trouble. My post is usually insightful, if I do say so myself. It seems that if they complain, then somebody edits something just to appease. It was a while back, but I asked if a poster had a chemistry background or even a standard needed-to-graduate level of course when they said that baking soda would kill your tank and that the sodium bicarbonate at BRS was the only thing that would work - I got my questions deleted along with the suggestion that they might want to study up a bit. Stopping all the editing with a complaint of this would be a good start. Logging in to say that a complaint was filed, but that the complaint was stupid (or nicer if you need to) is even better.

I have also been edited when I have pointed out that certain posters do not actually engage in the hobby and it is not clear what their motives are on the board.

Along these lines, there was an awesome exchange with Dr. Holmes-Farley not too long ago where the poster tried to make him look foolish and ended up doing that to themselves... I hope that these posts all stuck around. It is important to not only show people how to act, but also to show people how NOT to act. You cannot JUST lead by positive example if people are not paying attention. ...and too many people do not pay attention.

I would ask more questions of the people who have not demonstrated a level of competency if it was a core value. How about a forum rule that: you need to be prepared to have people ask reasonable and appropriate questions about the basis your opinons and recommendations if offered? Encourage this... respectfully and if the poster has outlined their position, is trying to help and has not logged in to just start a fight. ...so a safe zone, but not a free zone.

I get it... leadership is hard and it costs. You never have any idea what is costs, but it costs something and you only find out later. It is also some of the most important work that can be done in the world. Most people think that they are leaders, but if it has not cost you something and you have not "felt" it, then you are most likely not leading. If you want to make dynamic things (most humans are dynamic unless they work for the DMV), then you need to lead... like actually lead... including using the paradigm of what people NEED, not what they WANT. Leaders also are really great at getting other people to actually lead.

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

Like many others here, I believe the proof is in the pudding. I am an old timer who went through all of the stages of SPS keeping that @Brew12 mentions. I've had some success, and I've had plenty of failure. I give advice based on my actual experiences. I have not done the Zeovit method or the DSR method, so I don't advise on them. I don't keep seahorses or giant squid, so I don't advise on them. If you haven't had direct experience with something I think the community is best served if you do not advise on it. If you do have direct experience with it, then share that experience and be honest about it, but be prepared to support your advice with evidence such as pictures of your successes (and failures). Also just because it works for you do not act as if it's the be all end all solution for everyone. I see this with lighting on this forum in particular. There are those that feel that their lighting is THE ONLY WAY TO GO. While it may be the only way for you, there are many proven lighting solutions that work excellently and there are many members who can prove that with their tanks. This community is a valuable resource, but sometimes things do get bogged down or diluted due to too much fluff and/or ego.

 

[revhtree]

I have had posts deleted and edited when I have dared to question some experience or ask for more detail when a poster appears to have no root in reality or is clearly not speaking from experience . This is nearly always after I have posted a longer explanation about something to try and help and it is clear that I am not just jumping in to start some trouble. My post is usually insightful, if I do say so myself. It seems that if they complain, then somebody edits something just to appease. It was a while back, but I asked if a poster had a chemistry background or even a standard needed-to-graduate level of course when they said that baking soda would kill your tank and that the sodium bicarbonate at BRS was the only thing that would work - I got my questions deleted along with the suggestion that they might want to study up a bit. Stopping all the editing with a complaint of this would be a good start. Logging in to say that a complaint was filed, but that the complaint was stupid (or nicer if you need to) is even better.

I have also been edited when I have pointed out that certain posters do not actually engage in the hobby and it is not clear what their motives are on the board.

Along these lines, there was an awesome exchange with Dr. Holmes-Farley not too long ago where the poster tried to make him look foolish and ended up doing that to themselves... I hope that these posts all stuck around. It is important to not only show people how to act, but also to show people how NOT to act. You cannot JUST lead by positive example if people are not paying attention. ...and too many people do not pay attention.

I would ask more questions of the people who have not demonstrated a level of competency if it was a core value. How about a forum rule that: you need to be prepared to have people ask reasonable and appropriate questions about the basis your opinons and recommendations if offered? Encourage this... respectfully and if the poster has outlined their position, is trying to help and has not logged in to just start a fight. ...so a safe zone, but not a free zone.

I get it... leadership is hard and it costs. You never have any idea what is costs, but it costs something and you only find out later. It is also some of the most important work that can be done in the world. Most people think that they are leaders, but if it has not cost you something and you have not "felt" it, then you are most likely not leading. If you want to make dynamic things (most humans are dynamic unless they work for the DMV), then you need to lead... like actually lead... including using the paradigm of what people NEED, not what they WANT. Leaders also are really great at getting other people to actually lead.

I’m not sure if what and why things were removed but you sound super passionate about this and I would love to talk to you about becoming more involved. You interested?

 

[JoshH]

I have had posts deleted and edited when I have dared to question some experience or ask for more detail when a poster appears to have no root in reality or is clearly not speaking from experience .

Wouldn't have anything to do with a certain Cookie roaming around with spread sheets and graphs would it?? ;Hilarious;Hilarious;Hilarious;Hilarious

 

[SeaDweller]

So quick thought that maybe we could explore and try out in the sps forum. How about we put together a team of SPS "experts" or whatever we want to call them. We would vet them by several criteria. Stuff like build thread, time in the hobby and the best photo of their tank among other things. Then they would have to have a photo of their sps tank in their signature, they would get a special user badge or something like that.

Is this something we should explore? If so I'll start another thread so we can discuss it.

Nah, then you have a mix of different methodologies and ideologies at play. I can see it going wrong.

The person that needs help would need to adopt a method almost at 100% to produce what the “expert” is trying to teach; and what if what the expert teaches goes wrong? Well, I followed X advice and my $659.95 baller tri colored tenuis still died. I bet expert would feel bad.

I don’t see it being any different than people chiming in. Even then maybe just the “generalized” advice applies (Ie. Lower your light intensity, change your Alk, etc). I don’t think it can be the same as someone getting a “badge” for fish disease as with SPS, there’s too much at play, imo, which probably doesn’t matter anyway.

 

[revhtree]

So let’s work together for a solution!

 

[SeaDweller]

So let’s work together for a solution!

I think someone already beat us to it...

 

[ycnibrc]

Haha no matter what method you use. Sps keeping has 2 basic criteria
1) parameters
2) biological
If you can balance both then you will have a successful reef tank. So far i see most reefer focus on parameters aka Alk, temp, salinty, light , flow etc. But remember we don't have problem with dino long before when we are using live rock from the sea. Biological in your tank with multiple strain of bacteria and different microorganisms are far more important than a perfect parameters.