Ich back 2 times after copper

BRS

Lionfish hunter

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
340
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Houston
Well my poor blue tang has been in quarantine for months now and I cannot get rid of his ich. I watched him for a week in a quarantine 75 gallon and noticed the white spots. Put in cupramine at a level of .5 to .6 but who knows the tester is horrible. No sand and 2 small pieces of live rock. I moved him into a 20 gallon and left him in there for 72 hours without copper and then did 7 days of copper power at 2.0. Then moved him to another 20 gallon with no copper. 5 days later his ich was back. He just finished 14 days of copper power at a level of 2.3 to 2.6 using hannah copper checker. Mostly at 2.5, checked every other day. Bare bottom with pvc. He had lost all his color by day 14 and was close to dying. Colored up nicely once put in non copper water. To sterilize the tank he went into after treatment I put a 1/2 gallon of bleach with fresh water in the other 20 gallon tank and ran that for 7 days with the heater and pvc. Only that equipment went into the tank he is in now. He has been in that sterilized tank for 72 hours and has 2 clear ich spots again. Not small like velvet, and does not look like that virus that is similar to ich that they can have. I am at a loss of what to do, he won't survive more copper.

@Jay Hemdal have you seen this before? What should I do?
 
AquaCave Logo Banner

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,368
Reaction score
12,216
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
I think the issue may be the multiple short copper treatments. I always advocate for 30 days at full strength coppersafe. Copper power often has to be run higher than label instructions (as you have done). Then, if you want to be ultra safe, run two weeks of no copper (I use that time to dose with prazi) and then, if ich doesn't break again, add copper AGAIN, and pull the fish while it is in full copper (that kills off any theronts).

That said, blue tangs are notorious for developing mucus plugs during and after copper treatments (people implicate a virus on this, but it clearly isn't, it is a reaction to copper).

Regarding Prime and copper power - I won't do that, copper power is amine based, just like cupramine and coppersafe. I'm always worried that any reducing agent, in excess, will break that amine/copper bond, releasing free copper. I can't prove it, but then, nobody can prove through testing that it doesn't happen. The only way to know for sure is to set up a series of tanks, with all three copper products and then dose prime and watch for fish loss. Way too invasive for me to try.....

Jay
 
OP
Lionfish hunter

Lionfish hunter

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
340
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Houston
I think the issue may be the multiple short copper treatments. I always advocate for 30 days at full strength coppersafe. Copper power often has to be run higher than label instructions (as you have done). Then, if you want to be ultra safe, run two weeks of no copper (I use that time to dose with prazi) and then, if ich doesn't break again, add copper AGAIN, and pull the fish while it is in full copper (that kills off any theronts).

That said, blue tangs are notorious for developing mucus plugs during and after copper treatments (people implicate a virus on this, but it clearly isn't, it is a reaction to copper).

Regarding Prime and copper power - I won't do that, copper power is amine based, just like cupramine and coppersafe. I'm always worried that any reducing agent, in excess, will break that amine/copper bond, releasing free copper. I can't prove it, but then, nobody can prove through testing that it doesn't happen. The only way to know for sure is to set up a series of tanks, with all three copper products and then dose prime and watch for fish loss. Way too invasive for me to try.....

Jay
Impossible to get good pictures, he scared to death of everything after all he has been through. You can see one spot on the black toward his tail.

All I know is he survived 14 days of coppersafe and prime.

Thinking about doing ttm with 5 gallon buckets. But that will not be easy on a fish that is already at its breaking point.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20211203-131704_Gallery.jpg
    Screenshot_20211203-131704_Gallery.jpg
    49 KB · Views: 78
  • 20211203_131544.jpg
    20211203_131544.jpg
    89.6 KB · Views: 50
OP
Lionfish hunter

Lionfish hunter

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
340
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Houston
I think the issue may be the multiple short copper treatments. I always advocate for 30 days at full strength coppersafe. Copper power often has to be run higher than label instructions (as you have done). Then, if you want to be ultra safe, run two weeks of no copper (I use that time to dose with prazi) and then, if ich doesn't break again, add copper AGAIN, and pull the fish while it is in full copper (that kills off any theronts).

That said, blue tangs are notorious for developing mucus plugs during and after copper treatments (people implicate a virus on this, but it clearly isn't, it is a reaction to copper).

Regarding Prime and copper power - I won't do that, copper power is amine based, just like cupramine and coppersafe. I'm always worried that any reducing agent, in excess, will break that amine/copper bond, releasing free copper. I can't prove it, but then, nobody can prove through testing that it doesn't happen. The only way to know for sure is to set up a series of tanks, with all three copper products and then dose prime and watch for fish loss. Way too invasive for me to try.....

Jay
Better pics, 2 whites spots on the black toward tail. There is clear lateral line erosion as well.

20211203_132456.jpg 20211203_132454.jpg
 
AS

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,368
Reaction score
12,216
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
Better pics, 2 whites spots on the black toward tail. There is clear lateral line erosion as well.

20211203_132456.jpg 20211203_132454.jpg
This is where visual ID gets tricky- those spots are really diffuse. That could be a function of camera focus, or maybe it isn’t ich? However, the confounding factor is long term ich doesn’t always have those sharp edged, salt grain looking trophonts, and they do get a little “softer” looking.
Jay
 
OP
Lionfish hunter

Lionfish hunter

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
340
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Houston
This is where visual ID gets tricky- those spots are really diffuse. That could be a function of camera focus, or maybe it isn’t ich? However, the confounding factor is long term ich doesn’t always have those sharp edged, salt grain looking trophonts, and they do get a little “softer” looking.
Jay
If it is not ich what could it be? He has some white spots almost stringy or fuzzy on his blue that is barely visable, looked similar to the mucus plugs you identified in a separate post. I really was surgical when it came to the copper level and not contaminating equipment. I hope that by some miracle it is something else. I will let him be for a few days and see how it developes. Would mucus plugs slowly get worse like ich would?
 
OP
Lionfish hunter

Lionfish hunter

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
340
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Houston
how come not 30 days consistent copper treatment
14 days is suppose to be enough to kill ich as long as you move the fish to another sterile tank, 12 technically is enough. That is why the ttm works. Copper is a poison and I didn’t want the fish going through anymore than it had to. But if 14 doesnt work, that thought is out the window.
 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,368
Reaction score
12,216
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
If it is not ich what could it be? He has some white spots almost stringy or fuzzy on his blue that is barely visable, looked similar to the mucus plugs you identified in a separate post. I really was surgical when it came to the copper level and not contaminating equipment. I hope that by some miracle it is something else. I will let him be for a few days and see how it developes. Would mucus plugs slowly get worse like ich would?
Indeed, it could be mucus. Those mucus spots tend to change in number, but each individual spot tends to remain present for longer than a typical ich trophont does (+36 hours). I suppose it is possible to have BOTH at the same time, no reason that couldn't happen that I can think of.

Jay
 
BRS
OP
Lionfish hunter

Lionfish hunter

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
340
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Houston
Indeed, it could be mucus. Those mucus spots tend to change in number, but each individual spot tends to remain present for longer than a typical ich trophont does (+36 hours). I suppose it is possible to have BOTH at the same time, no reason that couldn't happen that I can think of.

Jay
The spots are the same this morning, 24 hrs. They do have more of a soft appearence, not crisp like a grain of salt. I will just cross my fingers for a few days.
 
OP
Lionfish hunter

Lionfish hunter

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
340
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Houston
Indeed, it could be mucus. Those mucus spots tend to change in number, but each individual spot tends to remain present for longer than a typical ich trophont does (+36 hours). I suppose it is possible to have BOTH at the same time, no reason that couldn't happen that I can think of.

Jay
After looking closer, those 2 spots are gone. There are new ones on different parts, none on his fins. How does this sound to you. I have no clue if it is ich. So I might just wait to do anything until he gets something on one of his fins. Then treat him with hypo or ttm. Do you have a preference on one of those? Copper is out, the last round almost killed him.
 

vetteguy53081

Well known Member and monster tank lover
Review score
+4 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
60,561
Reaction score
131,872
Review score
+4 /0 /-0
Location
Wisconsin - Florida before Fall
Me- I see mucus spots and lympho on the tail otherwise seems good.
Is appetite and breathing good ?
 

Jubei2006

Active Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 1, 2021
Messages
443
Reaction score
778
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Hickory
Personally I'd try to build him up for awhile if he is doing well. I'd observe, feed well and see it he can put some weight on before any other treatment. If he was in 14 days of copper at correct level as mentioned and never dropped below therapeutic, and immediately put into a sterile tank you should be good. I'd put him in a good non treated hospital tank, probably with some live rock and try to condition him for several weeks. When recovered and doing well, gaining weight, I'd consider doing the accellerated tank transfer method (36 hour mentioned in the disease forum sticky) to avoid more copper.
 
AS

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,368
Reaction score
12,216
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
After looking closer, those 2 spots are gone. There are new ones on different parts, none on his fins. How does this sound to you. I have no clue if it is ich. So I might just wait to do anything until he gets something on one of his fins. Then treat him with hypo or ttm. Do you have a preference on one of those? Copper is out, the last round almost killed him.
The spots going away point to ich, while no spots on the fins points to mucus. I would just watch the fish for now. I would opt for hypo myself if you do decide to treat.

Jay
 
OP
Lionfish hunter

Lionfish hunter

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
340
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Houston
Me- I see mucus spots and lympho on the tail otherwise seems good.
Is appetite and breathing good ?
Appetite has always been there, even when he lost all his color in copper. Has some weight on him. Breathing seems okay but I am no expert on how to tell if it is not. He hides in his pvc fittings all day long, scared to death of the world especially me. Only comes out to eat, but eats everything I put in.
 
OP
Lionfish hunter

Lionfish hunter

Well-Known Member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jan 18, 2021
Messages
518
Reaction score
340
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Houston
The spots going away point to ich, while no spots on the fins points to mucus. I would just watch the fish for now. I would opt for hypo myself if you do decide to treat.

Jay
Okay all the spots went away for 24 hrs and are now back in large numbers. No spots on fins. They are white and visibly hanging off the fish a little. You can actually see them almost moving in the current. Does ich do this? I have a picture where you can kind of tell if you zoom in. What do you think it is?
 

Attachments

  • 20211206_123440.jpg
    20211206_123440.jpg
    99.1 KB · Views: 58

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
12,368
Reaction score
12,216
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Dundee
Okay all the spots went away for 24 hrs and are now back in large numbers. No spots on fins. They are white and visibly hanging off the fish a little. You can actually see them almost moving in the current. Does ich do this? I have a picture where you can kind of tell if you zoom in. What do you think it is?
Sorry - just not clear enough for me to see (and water spots on the glass!). Even with the clearest of photos, It isn't always possible to tell visually.... however, with the spots dropping off and then returning in greater numbers, that isn't good, and does sound more like ich.

Jay
 
BRS

Peninsula Reef Tanks...

  • I currently have one

    Votes: 41 23.8%
  • I used to have one set up

    Votes: 8 4.7%
  • I would like to try one in the future

    Votes: 89 51.7%
  • No interest

    Votes: 34 19.8%
Your Reef
Top