Ich? Brook? Velvet? (Clown)

[Isosceles]

I'm assuming it's not velvet given the size, but ich or brook is another question. It is dots that I can count but they're not like little seeds sitting on top of the fish. Looks kinda melted into the slime coat. The decline was pretty fast too, the dots only just showed up today
I'll do a fw dip for some quick relief until we can figure out a better solution but I have everything to treat either disease. It's just a matter of proper ID

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I'm assuming it's not velvet given the size, but ich or brook is another question. It is dots that I can count but they're not like little seeds sitting on top of the fish. Looks kinda melted into the slime coat. The decline was pretty fast too, the dots only just showed up today
I'll do a fw dip for some quick relief until we can figure out a better solution but I have everything to treat either disease. It's just a matter of proper ID

That's not velvet. The spots on the clear part of the fins is more aligned with ich. However, it could be mucus plugs. The way to tell those apart is to watch the spots from day to day. If the spots change in number (even going away for a day or so) and change in location, then it is probably ich.

A FW dip isn't going to help with that and is fairly stressful.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I agree based on size of dots with ich. While you confirm more dots present in the morning, set up a separate quarantine tank to be prepared in advance.
You will need to place fish in this Quarantine tank and treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.15-2.25 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand and also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off and with occupants exposed, they too should go into quarantine
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

 

[Isosceles]

I agree based on size of dots with ich. While you confirm more dots present in the morning, set up a separate quarantine tank to be prepared in advance.
You will need to place fish in this Quarantine tank and treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.15-2.25 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand and also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off and with occupants exposed, they too should go into quarantine
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

I have spare 10s and 15s available no worries. Would hyposalinity in the QT help?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have spare 10s and 15s available no worries. Would hyposalinity in the QT help?

Hyposalinity works but I see often not well with some smaller fish including clowns

 

[Isosceles]

I agree based on size of dots with ich. While you confirm more dots present in the morning, set up a separate quarantine tank to be prepared in advance.
You will need to place fish in this Quarantine tank and treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.15-2.25 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand and also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off and with occupants exposed, they too should go into quarantine
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

Well uh... Today there are no dots on any of the fish, what does this imply?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Well uh... Today there are no dots on any of the fish, what does this imply?

Two things....
Can be sand or other foreign material or parasites falling off to reproduce and come back in numbers. If you swee none the next 72 hours, this may have been the case

 

[Isosceles]

Two things....
Can be sand or other foreign material or parasites falling off to reproduce and come back in numbers. If you swee none the next 72 hours, this may have been the case

I will say right before the lights went off a bunch of the dots popped up on the other clown, would they move over and all fall off both fish that fast? I could've sworn the life cycle was slower than that...

 

[MnFish1]

I have spare 10s and 15s available no worries. Would hyposalinity in the QT help?

I would just follow one protocol at a time - copper is stressful - and so is hyposalinity - I would mix the 2 personally. Whether the spots are coming and going (which it sounds like they are) - they do not look like sand grains. I would err on the side of treatment

 

[MnFish1]

I will say right before the lights went off a bunch of the dots popped up on the other clown, would they move over and all fall off both fish that fast? I could've sworn the life cycle was slower than that...

And yes - you need to treat ALL of your fish - and leave your display fallow for 6-8 weeks

 

[vetteguy53081]

I will say right before the lights went off a bunch of the dots popped up on the other clown, would they move over and all fall off both fish that fast? I could've sworn the life cycle was slower than that...

Move over no but back to reproduction, can be. Re=assess tomorrow and consider what i mentioned a few posts above rather than wait and assume risk

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I will say right before the lights went off a bunch of the dots popped up on the other clown, would they move over and all fall off both fish that fast? I could've sworn the life cycle was slower than that...

If it is ich, the life cycle can be synchronous at first; the spots leave all around the same time, then multiply and return. The spots that showed up on the second fish would have been from trophonts that dropped off a fish 3 days or so ago.

 

[Isosceles]

If it is ich, the life cycle can be synchronous at first; the spots leave all around the same time, then multiply and return. The spots that showed up on the second fish would have been from trophonts that dropped off a fish 3 days or so ago.

Move over no but back to reproduction, can be. Re=assess tomorrow and consider what i mentioned a few posts above rather than wait and assume risk

Well 7 hours later and they're back on both fish again, + on patient zero I'm also noticing some white blemishes (I hope not uronema, not sure why it would be given my salinity is correct) and his skin looks kinda rough/pitted. He's actually more active and swimming more normally than before but his appetite is a little iffy.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Well 7 hours later and they're back on both fish again, + on patient zero I'm also noticing some white blemishes (I hope not uronema, not sure why it would be given my salinity is correct) and his skin looks kinda rough/pitted. He's actually more active and swimming more normally than before but his appetite is a little iffy.

This unfortunately is ich parasite and not lesions and will need to be treated with coppersafe or copper power at treament level 2.25ppm monitored with hanna brand copper test kit and treat for a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) and also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off and with occupants exposed, they too should go into quarantine
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a tank from a second hand store or a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Well 7 hours later and they're back on both fish again, + on patient zero I'm also noticing some white blemishes (I hope not uronema, not sure why it would be given my salinity is correct) and his skin looks kinda rough/pitted. He's actually more active and swimming more normally than before but his appetite is a little iffy.

That sure looks like ich to me, based on these pictures and your observations.

 

[Isosceles]

Well thanks for all the help everyone, at least I can rest a bit easier knowing it's not brook or velvet... Ich I can handle
I'll keep you posted on how things are going

 

[Isosceles]

So uh... I don't want you to think I'm one of those "asks for help and then doesn't take action when given advice" people, but here's where we're at now, I just got the copper power/hanna checker in; I didn't want to move the fish without having the qt up and ready for them. That said however, while the copper/checker will definitely come in handy if I don't end up using it, I'm going to try the hybrid TTM with 150 ppm 3% H2O2 dips before I infect a tank and equipment with/subject the fish to copper. I have 3% H2O2 on hand for disinfecting reptile enclosures.

In terms of the fish themselves... they no longer have the big visible dots... now it's a lot of little fine nubs and some blotches of slime, almost looks like velvet or brook but interestingly these are not visible under white light. The blotches don't show up too well on camera but you can see the dots. Still ich?

(The thing on the face in that last picture is on the glass outside the tank)

They are however, acting perfectly fine, which to me rules out a "secondary" velvet or brook infection, in fact they're even more active than when I first made this post... swimming/breathing is normal, fins fully open, good appetites, though I will say their fins look like they're taking a bit of damage, skin looks scarred (you can kinda see in white light pic), and they're definitely losing a bit of muscle mass. I can understand them looking drained given the ich is literally eating them. Been just trying to keep them fed with good food (frozen spirulina mysis, spirulina brine, PE mysis) so they're in good spirits at the very least. Hybrid TTM and following fallow should give me better peace of mind hopefully. Going to be a rough few months for the little guys.

The skunk clown has a few blemishes on the fins but nothing as bad as the ocellaris. The bicolor blenny and banggai are completely unscathed.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

So uh... I don't want you to think I'm one of those "asks for help and then doesn't take action when given advice" people, but here's where we're at now, I just got the copper power/hanna checker in; I didn't want to move the fish without having the qt up and ready for them. That said however, while the copper/checker will definitely come in handy if I don't end up using it, I'm going to try the hybrid TTM with 150 ppm 3% H2O2 dips before I infect a tank and equipment with/subject the fish to copper. I have 3% H2O2 on hand for disinfecting reptile enclosures.

In terms of the fish themselves... they no longer have the big visible dots... now it's a lot of little fine nubs and some blotches of slime, almost looks like velvet or brook but interestingly these are not visible under white light. The blotches don't show up too well on camera but you can see the dots. Still ich?

(The thing on the face in that last picture is on the glass outside the tank)

They are however, acting perfectly fine, which to me rules out a "secondary" velvet or brook infection, in fact they're even more active than when I first made this post... swimming/breathing is normal, fins fully open, good appetites, though I will say their fins look like they're taking a bit of damage, skin looks scarred (you can kinda see in white light pic), and they're definitely losing a bit of muscle mass. I can understand them looking drained given the ich is literally eating them. Been just trying to keep them fed with good food (frozen spirulina mysis, spirulina brine, PE mysis) so they're in good spirits at the very least. Hybrid TTM and following fallow should give me better peace of mind hopefully. Going to be a rough few months for the little guys.

The skunk clown has a few blemishes on the fins but nothing as bad as the ocellaris. The bicolor blenny and banggai are completely unscathed.

As I had said, that’s ich. It just changes how it looks as the infection progresses. Late stage ich is when the fish develop behavioral symptoms like not eating, etc.

TTM works for ich if you are very diligent on the timing. You will need a stable ich free tank to move the fish into after the TTM then, to give their previous rank to run fallow.

The peroxide addition is just something some people suggest. It is based on a paper published where 75 ppm peroxide dips (and moving the fish to a clean tank) cleared Amyloodinium (velvet). Its benefit for ich is just anecdotal.

One huge issue with TTM is that people run it in opaque containers. That means they can’t observe the fish for issues. Another issue is that in small containers, ammonia can build up before a scheduled move.

 

[Isosceles]

As I had said, that’s ich. It just changes how it looks as the infection progresses. Late stage ich is when the fish develop behavioral symptoms like not eating, etc.

TTM works for ich if you are very diligent on the timing. You will need a stable ich free tank to move the fish into after the TTM then, to give their previous rank to run fallow.

The peroxide addition is just something some people suggest. It is based on a paper published where 75 ppm peroxide dips (and moving the fish to a clean tank) cleared Amyloodinium (velvet). Its benefit for ich is just anecdotal.

One huge issue with TTM is that people run it in opaque containers. That means they can’t observe the fish for issues. Another issue is that in small containers, ammonia can build up before a scheduled move.

Gotcha, thank you, just wanted to be sure. I'm not doing the peroxide dips for the ich, just figured I'd clear them for anything else. I'll be running the TTM out of glass aquariums.