I'll be on LIVE tomorrow with askBRStv and I need you!!! :)

Will you watch revhtree on the LIVE #askBRStv show?

  • Yes I'll tune in live at 1:30pm est!

    Votes: 116 33.0%
  • No I'll have to catch the rerun!

    Votes: 193 54.8%
  • Neither, I choose to make revhtree sad...

    Votes: 43 12.2%

  • Total voters
    352

Sisterlimonpot

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I see this a little differently.. I might not 100% agree with all their recommendations but to me this seems more of a desire from BRS to genuinely help Reefers by recommending products they feel work the best.

As a general rule it makes no economic sense for a business to promote or push a particular product. I was in sales my whole life and now that I’m retired I help my daughter with trade shows for her business, we will typically have upwards of 50 items on display and we really want/need to sell them all so I’m not going to stand there and tell someone to only buy a particular item but of course If someone asks I will always try to give my honest recommendations and of course there are exceptions such as sales or overstock conditions which may require temporary promotions or a little extra “hype” to help move a item.
I conclude the exact opposite, make no mistake, BRS is a business, their goal is to sell to you with the greatest profit margin. When companies offer better wholesale savings coupled with MAP pricing, it's only smart to push products with the biggest profit margin... unfortunately we as consumers don't want to know about the underbelly of the industry, our intentions are to allow companies like them to tell us what we want.

One can argue that they do more good for the hobby as a whole, but there's a reason why certain products get pushed more than others... and that's not by mistake. Make a video sprinkle in some common sense facts and lace the rest with opinion or pseudo science, consumers don't know the difference and we have products flying off the shelves.

Marketing... you got to love it.
 
Top Shelf Aquatics

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I conclude the exact opposite, make no mistake, BRS is a business, their goal is to sell to you with the greatest profit margin. When companies offer better wholesale savings coupled with MAP pricing, it's only smart to push products with the biggest profit margin... unfortunately we as consumers don't want to know about the underbelly of the industry, our intentions are to allow companies like them to tell us what we want.

One can argue that they do more good for the hobby as a whole, but there's a reason why certain products get pushed more than others... and that's not by mistake. Make a video sprinkle in some common sense facts and lace the rest with opinion or pseudo science, consumers don't know the difference and we have products flying off the shelves.

Marketing... you got to love it.

So let’s say I’m a business owner and I’m going to sell three different carbon filters ie. brand X,Y & Z..

I order a dozen cases of each which “cost me money”, to fill my warehouse which “cost me money”, that’s stocked by my employees which “cost me money” using that new fork lift that “cost me money” and then I’m going to make a video that “cost me more money” to try and convince my customers to only buy brand X? doesn’t make economic sense as a business..

Yes I might push or highlight particular items that I have a higher profit margin on or that maybe Im overstocked on but Im not going to make a video alienating the rest of my inventory.
 

KStatefan

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Sorry for the rant...

BUT...I really despise live videos. I wish they would stop. I now watch half of what brs posts, American Reefing when they show Mike and Dr. Sanjay (spelling), Tidal Gardens, and I watch Travis’ Fish of Hex’s-kinda ****** it’s gonna be slow on his end in the next month but I get it, he’s a hunter. There’s a few others I’ll watch randomly but not like I do these.

As far as the ‘others’ I wish they’d stop so I can enjoy their channels again...
For the most part I agree with this a number of the youtubers just seem to put these live videos out to get views without having to put any planning or editing time into them.

I do like the BRS live videos.
 

Streetdoc77

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I see this conversation has shifted a bit but it brings up some very good points . One of the best points made was "unfortunately we as consumers don't want to know about the underbelly of the industry, our intentions are to allow companies like them to tell us what we want" per @Sisterlimonpot .

We are willing to do just about anything too ensure we have successful reef tanks and suck up online content like a vacuum and will jump at anything to give us an edge . I Have been quite guilty of this at times and been optimistic also on many occasions ....It comes down to an informed consumer which is where these things collide , online content , marketing , personalities . We all have favorite people we watch on these youtube channels a lot us are seeking information and others entertainment .

Putting faces with @BRS and them being quite relatable helps they're image and a sense of trust so when they cover a subject in depth we tend to listen we rely on them to keep us informed , the more content they produce the more we listen because we're hungry for it . Do I think they help our reefing community ??? Yes I do but its our job to determine what we really need for our tanks .

We are a community of like minded people seeking information and camaraderie with each other here on @R2R which is the best reefing forum EVER and we are all in this together !!!!!

Great job again @revhtree
 
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Brew12

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Great video @revhtree !
Still wish we would have had more time to hang out at MACNA this year. Silly hurricanes….

On a more general note regarding the motivations of @BRS for making these, yes, they obviously have a profit motive. It would be very short sighted for them to only push the highest profit margin items. It is in their best long term interest to help make reefers successful. Someone who buys a new setup from them but fails out of the hobby makes them a little money. Someone who they can help become a successful and loyal customer year after year makes them a lot more money. (By the way guys, nice seeing you at MACNA, too!).
 

Bleigh

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Watched the rerun eariler today. Yes I think that BRS wants to make money, but I find them helpful. I want them to make money as well. I think they want to help reefers solve problems and prevent having them in the first place. Should they make money in the process? ABSOLUTELY. I mean, I'd love to make money in the process too. ;Happy The dream is to have a job that you love, for you shall never work a day in your life. I think they've found that balance.
 

Auquanut

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Watched it yesterday. I really enjoyed it, even though I had to break out the English to Georgian dictionary a couple of times. :) Is the purpose of these live feeds commercial? I don't know, and really am not too concerned about it. I think they approached the topic openly and honestly, which is exactly what I would expect from Rev and Ryan. I'm never disappointed.
 

Sisterlimonpot

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I dont disagree one bit, we live in a capitalistic society we should applaud people when they see a way to profit. My concern is with consumers and their ability to think critically. Too many people follow blindly and don't see the subvert message that is being preached.

My first reef tank was a used 72g bowfront. It was pretty much turn key, T5 lights, awaki pump, maxijet modded power heads, venturi skimmer, wetdry sump, sand and dead coral in lieu of rock. I gave $400 for it. Then a few months later a LFS was going out of business and I picked up a 125 with stand, Mag return pump, skimmer and sump for $75. Then, the military moved me to California and I came across a leemar 300g for $700.

My point being my experience wasn't abnormal, I didn't search these deals out, they were out there. The idea that this hobby requires tons of money is a fallacy, and one would question why that information is being casually thrown out there? Is it because, new reefers will take that as fact and relate to the need to feed the obsession? To justify taking out a signature loan for a reef tank (by the way, please don't think this is common practice).

Marketing in this hobby has really grown up, no longer are forums like these dominated by hobbyists, it's a vehicle for companies to get their product out there in a way that we believe it's from hobbyists. Why do you think Rev didn't want to tell you what salt he uses? Because R2R is a business.

The attraction to this particular forum is fueled by the possibility of winning free stuff during those give aways. Why cant we have a forum by the hobbyists for the hobbyists and skip the clever product pushing? Because it doesn't pay the bills (capitalism remember).

I say all of that to say that none of that is going to change, the only thing we can do is see it for what it is. Educate the masses that researching equipment isn't watching a BRS video and you have all the information to make an informed decision. Consumers need to think for themselves, question the motives behind certain reviews and videos. If it becomes common practice that we hide from our significant others the cost of a particular piece of equipment, why is that ok? When did that become ok? Consumers have the loudest voice, but it's easy to divide us and fracture the masses with a well placed comment or well worded debate. if a peice of equipment is too expensive, vocalize it, question it, don't purchase it!

A successful reef isn't the most expensive one, it never has been, then why do we have it ingrained into our DNA to think that way? It can all be summed up as a classic case of trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Bottom line, if you want this hobby to be affordable then stop paying inflated prices for equipment and livestock.
 

JoshH

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While I really do enjoy these videos @BRS puts out especially Ryan's new tank journey with interviews from some of the industry leaders and the 52 weeks of reef keeping. The "Best of" videos are really subjective, they should be "Best of what BRS Carries" videos. There are certain categories that have been shown where better alternatives are out there but BRS doesn't sell them so they don't mention them, which doesn't serve the new hobbyist very well in the grand scheme of things atleast IMO.

However I understand the drive behind them making these videos and in the past they have been wonderfully informative which I've enjoyed. I just choose to no longer watch the "Best of" series and focus on the fun videos :)
 
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Top Shelf Aquatics

Wolfman238

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In my years of reefing there is lots of information out there lots of equipment and ways of doing things. No one should never follow anyone blindly take the information in and use what works for your situation and don't worry about the rest. As far as I'm concerned brs doesn't have to put out all the informational videos out they do but I'm glad they do. Just my 2 cents lol
 

Kyuss414

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I dont disagree one bit, we live in a capitalistic society we should applaud people when they see a way to profit. My concern is with consumers and their ability to think critically. Too many people follow blindly and don't see the subvert message that is being preached.

My first reef tank was a used 72g bowfront. It was pretty much turn key, T5 lights, awaki pump, maxijet modded power heads, venturi skimmer, wetdry sump, sand and dead coral in lieu of rock. I gave $400 for it. Then a few months later a LFS was going out of business and I picked up a 125 with stand, Mag return pump, skimmer and sump for $75. Then, the military moved me to California and I came across a leemar 300g for $700.

My point being my experience wasn't abnormal, I didn't search these deals out, they were out there. The idea that this hobby requires tons of money is a fallacy, and one would question why that information is being casually thrown out there? Is it because, new reefers will take that as fact and relate to the need to feed the obsession? To justify taking out a signature loan for a reef tank (by the way, please don't think this is common practice).

Marketing in this hobby has really grown up, no longer are forums like these dominated by hobbyists, it's a vehicle for companies to get their product out there in a way that we believe it's from hobbyists. Why do you think Rev didn't want to tell you what salt he uses? Because R2R is a business.

The attraction to this particular forum is fueled by the possibility of winning free stuff during those give aways. Why cant we have a forum by the hobbyists for the hobbyists and skip the clever product pushing? Because it doesn't pay the bills (capitalism remember).

I say all of that to say that none of that is going to change, the only thing we can do is see it for what it is. Educate the masses that researching equipment isn't watching a BRS video and you have all the information to make an informed decision. Consumers need to think for themselves, question the motives behind certain reviews and videos. If it becomes common practice that we hide from our significant others the cost of a particular piece of equipment, why is that ok? When did that become ok? Consumers have the loudest voice, but it's easy to divide us and fracture the masses with a well placed comment or well worded debate. if a peice of equipment is too expensive, vocalize it, question it, don't purchase it!

A successful reef isn't the most expensive one, it never has been, then why do we have it ingrained into our DNA to think that way? It can all be summed up as a classic case of trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Bottom line, if you want this hobby to be affordable then stop paying inflated prices for equipment and livestock.
Did you watch the video? Because Ryan from BRS clearly stated that buying used equipment/entire set-ups from someone getting out of the hobby is definitely the least expensive option. I've seen him mention this several times.

There's a difference between "a successful reef tank" and "a dream reef tank." He also clearly stated that a dream tank means different stuff to different people.

As for "Why cant we have a forum by the hobbyists for the hobbyists and skip the clever product pushing? Because it doesn't pay the bills (capitalism remember)." Anyone is free to start such a thing up themselves. There's still work and costs involved in doing so though.
While I really do enjoy these videos @BRS puts out especially Ryan's new tank journey with interviews from some of the industry leaders and the 52 weeks of reef keeping. The "Best of" videos are really subjective, they should be "Best of what BRS Carries" videos. There are certain categories that have been shown where better alternatives are out there but BRS doesn't sell them so they don't mention them, which doesn't serve the new hobbyist very well in the grand scheme of things atleast IMO.

However I understand the drive behind them making these videos and in the past they have been wonderfully informative which I've enjoyed. I just choose to no longer watch the "Best of" series and focus on the fun videos :)
I think it would be pretty obvious that any company doing such comparisons are going to be comparing the stuff they can pull of their own shelves. I wouldn't expect them to go out and purchase everything available that they don't sell as well. But again, if someone wanted to do such a thing, they're free to go purchase all the stuff to do a "real" comparison and post their conclusions as well. There's a reason why this isn't too common on any subject - it would cost a lot of money. And you would still have someone complaining because they didn't test product X from China because it does the same job for 1/10th price and you're just a shill.


I say all this stuff as someone who bought a 150G & stand for $300 used, don't use any of the top-tier equipment, and just have a lowly softie & LPS mixed reef that, as of next month, will be up and running for 7 years. Still have a few thousand tied up the system though. I don't recall seeing many, if any, people ever saying there's only one way to do this hobby, or only one way to be successful in it. It's usually quite the contrary with most people saying the opposite. Everyone enjoys different aspects of it, everyone has different goals, etc. I don't get upset when someone else shares their goals, or their methods, when they don't match up with mine though. There's still something to be learned about reefing from it, and I'm thankful they took the time to share their experience.
 

JoshH

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Did you watch the video? Because Ryan from BRS clearly stated that buying used equipment/entire set-ups from someone getting out of the hobby is definitely the least expensive option. I've seen him mention this several times.

There's a difference between "a successful reef tank" and "a dream reef tank." He also clearly stated that a dream tank means different stuff to different people.

As for "Why cant we have a forum by the hobbyists for the hobbyists and skip the clever product pushing? Because it doesn't pay the bills (capitalism remember)." Anyone is free to start such a thing up themselves. There's still work and costs involved in doing so though.

I think it would be pretty obvious that any company doing such comparisons are going to be comparing the stuff they can pull of their own shelves. I wouldn't expect them to go out and purchase everything available that they don't sell as well. But again, if someone wanted to do such a thing, they're free to go purchase all the stuff to do a "real" comparison and post their conclusions as well. There's a reason why this isn't too common on any subject - it would cost a lot of money. And you would still have someone complaining because they didn't test product X from China because it does the same job for 1/10th price and you're just a shill.


I say all this stuff as someone who bought a 150G & stand for $300 used, don't use any of the top-tier equipment, and just have a lowly softie & LPS mixed reef that, as of next month, will be up and running for 7 years. Still have a few thousand tied up the system though. I don't recall seeing many, if any, people ever saying there's only one way to do this hobby, or only one way to be successful in it. It's usually quite the contrary with most people saying the opposite. Everyone enjoys different aspects of it, everyone has different goals, etc. I don't get upset when someone else shares their goals, or their methods, when they don't match up with mine though. There's still something to be learned about reefing from it, and I'm thankful they took the time to share their experience.
It is very obvious that a company will only compare what they carry. But to paint a broad stroke and say that one product is the absolute best over everything else, without comparing it to everything else is where my issue lies. If you can't prove it's truly better than any of it's other competitors by actually comparing it to everything else, then don't say it. Pretty simple concept. Feel free to say it's the best product that you have to offer, by all means, but leave it at that.

The BRS videos that are product specific are a prime example of what these reviews should be. Direct reviews of products, not comparing them to others on the market and highlighting features and options important to new and old reefers alike.

Don't get me wrong, I love the vast majority of BRS' Videos and I'm really digging the new series. Being able to go through an incredibly complex in house with a fish room build right from the beginning is fantastic! Seeing everything from plumbing and electrical to flooring and wall material choices will be very helpful to A LOT of new reefers and even seasoned reefers who are stepping into much larger builds. It's also nice seeing some industry leaders stepping in and talking about different subjects and there personal experiences with things. I just feel these "Best of 20.." videos aren't really in keeping with virtually every other BRS series out there.

And just like yourself, I really enjoyed the conversation of what a "Dream Tank" really is. It's not always about having a pool in your house, or even the most top of the line gear running your system. It's all about your own personal goals and what you envision that dream is. Which I think is a VERY important subject to touch on, especially nowadays when the pricey equipment and "As big of a tank as you can afford" seems to be the normal push. My new tank is a very shallow tank and at only 125 Gallons it's certainly not the biggest one out there. I will be running it on a closed loop setup with 0 fancy powerheads (MAYBE an MP40 with a battery backup for power outages, but we shall see). And while I absolutely could have afforded a much larger tank, that's not my dream.
 
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BeejReef

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I dont disagree one bit, we live in a capitalistic society we should applaud people when they see a way to profit. My concern is with consumers and their ability to think critically. Too many people follow blindly and don't see the subvert message that is being preached.

My first reef tank was a used 72g bowfront. It was pretty much turn key, T5 lights, awaki pump, maxijet modded power heads, venturi skimmer, wetdry sump, sand and dead coral in lieu of rock. I gave $400 for it. Then a few months later a LFS was going out of business and I picked up a 125 with stand, Mag return pump, skimmer and sump for $75. Then, the military moved me to California and I came across a leemar 300g for $700.

My point being my experience wasn't abnormal, I didn't search these deals out, they were out there. The idea that this hobby requires tons of money is a fallacy, and one would question why that information is being casually thrown out there? Is it because, new reefers will take that as fact and relate to the need to feed the obsession? To justify taking out a signature loan for a reef tank (by the way, please don't think this is common practice).

Marketing in this hobby has really grown up, no longer are forums like these dominated by hobbyists, it's a vehicle for companies to get their product out there in a way that we believe it's from hobbyists. Why do you think Rev didn't want to tell you what salt he uses? Because R2R is a business.

The attraction to this particular forum is fueled by the possibility of winning free stuff during those give aways. Why cant we have a forum by the hobbyists for the hobbyists and skip the clever product pushing? Because it doesn't pay the bills (capitalism remember).

I say all of that to say that none of that is going to change, the only thing we can do is see it for what it is. Educate the masses that researching equipment isn't watching a BRS video and you have all the information to make an informed decision. Consumers need to think for themselves, question the motives behind certain reviews and videos. If it becomes common practice that we hide from our significant others the cost of a particular piece of equipment, why is that ok? When did that become ok? Consumers have the loudest voice, but it's easy to divide us and fracture the masses with a well placed comment or well worded debate. if a peice of equipment is too expensive, vocalize it, question it, don't purchase it!

A successful reef isn't the most expensive one, it never has been, then why do we have it ingrained into our DNA to think that way? It can all be summed up as a classic case of trying to keep up with the Joneses.

Bottom line, if you want this hobby to be affordable then stop paying inflated prices for equipment and livestock.
I agree with you on some of your points. Where I don't totally agree isn't worth arguing about.
I'm with you. I can't fathom spending the kind of money that is often discussed. Not because I couldn't, but because doing so would suck the joy out of the hobby for me. I would feel like I was cheating, not really accomplishing anything.

Even with my stingy, grumpy personality though, I've noticed the calculation changes a bit once you start to have real money invested in livestock. The def of "real" is, of course, relative. I guess that's where I differ with you a little. I don't see where the marketing and hype, or the preference of some reefers to go "first class only," drives up prices on intermediate or used equipment. I might concede the point on lighting. In most cases though, it seems to show up more often as used/deep discount.

If I enjoy the hobby bc of a DIY/fight the power mentality, I can't fault others for loving to collect named corals or designer sumps.
 

Halal Hotdog

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So let’s say I’m a business owner and I’m going to sell three different carbon filters ie. brand X,Y & Z..

I order a dozen cases of each which “cost me money”, to fill my warehouse which “cost me money”, that’s stocked by my employees which “cost me money” using that new fork lift that “cost me money” and then I’m going to make a video that “cost me more money” to try and convince my customers to only buy brand X? doesn’t make economic sense as a business..

Yes I might push or highlight particular items that I have a higher profit margin on or that maybe Im overstocked on but Im not going to make a video alienating the rest of my inventory.
I think there are a few flawed points in this logic. All products are not stocked at the same level and all have varying profit margins. If you can consolidate your market to purchasing significantly more of one product that has a much higher margin, then your bottom line changes quite a bit. Beyond that, once you start purchasing significantly more as a retailer of one product, the manufacturer offers larger discounts. For BRS brand materials, they need to hit certain levels to be able to receive certain purchase prices. I have been at different levels of wholesale for years, and what they are doing is very common to drive up profits. I am not saying they are purely profit driven, but understanding the marketing element is important.

On BRS TV they have said salt is a net loss for them. I am not sure how true this is, but if it is true then pushing salts would be counterproductive for increased profit margins. As seen on their recent videos, they have devoted a significant amount of resources to testing and selling salts.
 

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