Is it you? letting dinoflagellates prevail

[sixty_reefer]

My theory, as a result from a recent hobby study that I’m currently doing on phytoplankton, revealed to me that how we feed our tanks could be in direct affect on why so many of us suffer from this plague in modern days.
My theory is based on Heterotrophic bacteria defect, if you do a search you will find that this bacteria is responsible for decomposing left over foods in our tanks, there are herbivores and carnivores species of Heterotrophic bacteria living in our tanks. If we feed mainly brine shrimp and pellets that is mostly meaty foods you will have a greater population of carnivorous bacteria. This could become a problem as the population of herbivores will be in very reduced numbers. And wend a bloom of dinoflagellates develops in the tank we will have a lower population of herbivores to outcompete the nuisance that is dinoflagellates. In the experiment I was working I was able to fully eliminate photosynthetic dinoflagellates by unknowingly increasing the population of herbivores using freeze dried phytoplankton as a food source. It’s a possibility that we may need to start feeding our tanks algae wafers to keep our microbe population of herbivores healthy.

@AquaBiomics you have tested a lot of tanks in our hobby, is this something you ever noticed on thanks with dinoflagellates? Having less herbivore bacteria present in the tank?

pictures from my test

This is the thread we’re some information is:

The Green Carbon Dosing Metalology (phytoplankton)

This thread is aimed at discussing the potential of using Phytoplankton as a carbon dosing method and possibly fixing microbiology in a salt water tank during the process. The concept that led me to think that phytoplankton can be beneficial to a reef comes from nature, this is a process that...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[blaxsun]

Interesting, thanks for the read.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Interesting, thanks for the read.

thanks, it is a start to connecting the dots as dinoflagellates are a micro algae also.

 

[Dan_P]

My theory, as a result from a recent hobby study that I’m currently doing on phytoplankton, revealed to me that how we feed our tanks could be in direct affect on why so many of us suffer from this plague in modern days.
My theory is based on Heterotrophic bacteria defect, if you do a search you will find that this bacteria is responsible for decomposing left over foods in our tanks, there are herbivores and carnivores species of Heterotrophic bacteria living in our tanks. If we feed mainly brine shrimp and pellets that is mostly meaty foods you will have a greater population of carnivorous bacteria. This could become a problem as the population of herbivores will be in very reduced numbers. And wend a bloom of dinoflagellates develops in the tank we will have a lower population of herbivores to outcompete the nuisance that is dinoflagellates. In the experiment I was working I was able to fully eliminate photosynthetic dinoflagellates by unknowingly increasing the population of herbivores using freeze dried phytoplankton as a food source. It’s a possibility that we may need to start feeding our tanks algae wafers to keep our microbe population of herbivores healthy.

@AquaBiomics you have tested a lot of tanks in our hobby, is this something you ever noticed on thanks with dinoflagellates? Having less herbivore bacteria present in the tank?

pictures from my test

This is the thread we’re some information is:

The Green Carbon Dosing Metalology (phytoplankton)

This thread is aimed at discussing the potential of using Phytoplankton as a carbon dosing method and possibly fixing microbiology in a salt water tank during the process. The concept that led me to think that phytoplankton can be beneficial to a reef comes from nature, this is a process that...

www.reef2reef.com

Neat idea and certainly testable.

There is a reference to herbivore bacteria which implies bacteria that eat plants. Since bacteria are very much smaller than dinoflagellates and can’t consume a dinoflagellate cell, are you maybe thinking that there are bacteria that harm dinoflagellates somehow and that these bacteria can be encouraged to grow by adding freeze dried phytoplankton?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Neat idea and certainly testable.

There is a reference to herbivore bacteria which implies bacteria that eat plants. Since bacteria are very much smaller than dinoflagellates and can’t consume a dinoflagellate cell, are you maybe thinking that there are bacteria that harm dinoflagellates somehow and that these bacteria can be encouraged to grow by adding freeze dried phytoplankton?

Hi Dan, yes it’s certainly testable, if you fallow the link you’ll see some preliminary finds, would be good for confirmation if more did it. In my PP reactor Heterotrophic bacteria is able to break down phytoplankton quite fast, it took two days for them to bloom in the reactor and by the third day I was able to notice that the photosynthetic dinoflagellates we’re losing the battle and by the 5th day there is no visual signs of them anymore, my experience with the PP reactor wasn’t set to fight photosynthetic dinoflagellates, but it is an accidental interesting find.

I’m only using freeze dried phytoplankton for a few reasons.

1. it’s easier to quantify a gallon Per ml of phytoplankton ratio, for someone to mimic results.

2. remove the hypothesis that is live phytoplankton that is outcompeting the dinoflagellates, like many still think. Using dead fresh phytoplankton gives my theory some standing credibility, the decomposing of phytoplankton that actually is feeding microbes that outcompete dinoflagellates.

3. the rules of zero no3 and zero po4 would still apply, just phytoplankton wouldn’t work if nutrients still zero.

4. live phytoplankton could still be used is just harder to quantify and could impact overall system with fertilisers left in the culture.

5. Never thought about the cell size, but they can easily break down phytoplankton cells.

6. I believe that you and taricha made a lot of work on dinoflagellates and cyano bacteria, I would be very pleased for you guys to put this concept to the test and help members to get rid of this nuisance and enjoy the hobby.

there’s more in thread from the link above, nitrifying bacteria has a role in it to not just Heterotrophic bacteria (herbivores)

 

[Dan_P]

Hi Dan, yes it’s certainly testable, if you fallow the link you’ll see some preliminary finds, would be good for confirmation if more did it. In my PP reactor Heterotrophic bacteria is able to break down phytoplankton quite fast, it took two days for them to bloom in the reactor and by the third day I was able to notice that the photosynthetic dinoflagellates we’re losing the battle and by the 5th day there is no visual signs of them anymore, my experience with the PP reactor wasn’t set to fight photosynthetic dinoflagellates, but it is an accidental interesting find.

I’m only using freeze dried phytoplankton for a few reasons.

1. it’s easier to quantify a gallon Per ml of phytoplankton ratio, for someone to mimic results.

2. remove the hypothesis that is live phytoplankton that is outcompeting the dinoflagellates, like many still think. Using dead fresh phytoplankton gives my theory some standing credibility, the decomposing of phytoplankton that actually is feeding microbes that outcompete dinoflagellates.

3. the rules of zero no3 and zero po4 would still apply, just phytoplankton wouldn’t work if nutrients still zero.

4. live phytoplankton could still be used is just harder to quantify and could impact overall system with fertilisers left in the culture.

5. Never thought about the cell size, but they can easily break down phytoplankton cells.

6. I believe that you and taricha made a lot of work on dinoflagellates and cyano bacteria, I would be very pleased for you guys to put this concept to the test and help members to get rid of this nuisance and enjoy the hobby.

there’s more in thread from the link above, nitrifying bacteria has a role in it to not just Heterotrophic bacteria (herbivores)

Thanks for this clarification. it is helpful in thinking about how to run experiments.

is there a particular brand of freeze dried phytoplankton I should consider?

 

[OrchidMiss]

This is really interesting.

Recently, I have noticed a bloom of dinos in my 20g, while I don't have any issues in my 55 or 110g tanks.
Both of my larger tanks obviously have more fish, and I do feed them more "greens" per say.
I will have to see if I can use this idea to combat this issue.

 

[dvgyfresh]

When I first started out and got Dino’s , I was keeping a snowflake eel so there was no shortage of meaty foods maybe you are on to something - I did add algae tabs for the cuc tho

 

[josephxsxn]

Just chiming in here that I started to get some dinos again in my 167gal... Overdosing on Lanthanum chloride to end with 0 detectable phosphates and I always note the PH gets higher then normal toward 8.3 PH too. When normally 8.0-8.2 is the tank norm.

Interesting idea you have here.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Thanks for this clarification. it is helpful in thinking about how to run experiments.

is there a particular brand of freeze dried phytoplankton I should consider?

I’ve used Nannachloropsis Gaditana, food grade. But similar should work also imo, if the theory correct. This is the only thing I’ve done differently in the last few months there for I strongly believe that the clues are there.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Just chiming in here that I started to get some dinos again in my 167gal... Overdosing on Lanthanum chloride to end with 0 detectable phosphates and I always note the PH gets higher then normal toward 8.3 PH too. When normally 8.0-8.2 is the tank norm.

Interesting idea you have here.

The rule of zero is starting to get popular this days, it says that is very likely to cause dinoflagellates if any of the nutrients stays at zero for a period of time. It’s not known yet how long it takes for the bacteria to starve.

 

[homer1475]

Thought it was well known that dosing phyto, out competed dino's? It's not that they defeat the dino's, but occupy the space they would normally take up.

I'm not great at explaing what I'm thinking so forgive my unscientific approach.

 

[homer1475]

The rule of zero is starting to get popular this days, it says that is very likely to cause dinoflagellates if any of the nutrients stays at zero for a period of time. It’s not known yet how long it takes for the bacteria to starve.

I don't thinks its the 0's that cause dino's( we used to strive for 0's long ago, but also did not have the dry rock we have these days), it's the lack of biodiversity at the 0's that invites dino's. Nothing to out compete it with dry rock, and "live sand".

I will say that I did defeat dino's with UV and increased nutrients, but have seen very possitive results in dosing phyto and cyano, yet my nutrient numbers remain the same as when I had bad cyano issues.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Thought it was well known that dosing phyto, out competed dino's? It's not that they defeat the dino's, but occupy the space they would normally take up.

I'm not great at explaing what I'm thinking so forgive my unscientific approach.

That’s what I used to believe also, this test revealed to me that the phytoplankton can’t outcompete directly as the phytoplankton used is dead and it starts to decompose almost immediately.
the same happens with live phytoplankton, once is added to a reef tank it dies almost instantly, some will be used by critters directly but the most part will end up as bacterial food.

this is a picture taken in day 4 all is left is just a sludge, it has been decomposed by microbes

 

[homer1475]

Why does it die almost instantly? It's grown in salt water? I'm confused on this part.

When I overdose live phyto to my tank, it certainly lives as I can see it growing on my glass. Not algae, but actual phyto(I've taken a sample to view under a microscope so I know it's still phyto).

I'm going to assume(we all know what happens when one assumes lol), that with your dead phyto, your just elevating nutrient levels, thus out competing the dino's for the same space with another type of bacteria that will feed off the now available nutrients.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I don't thinks its the 0's that cause dino's( we used to strive for 0's long ago, but also did not have the dry rock we have these days), it's the lack of biodiversity at the 0's that invites dino's. Nothing to out compete it with dry rock, and "live sand".

I will say that I did defeat dino's with UV and increased nutrients, but have seen very possitive results in dosing phyto and cyano, yet my nutrient numbers remain the same as when I had bad cyano issues.

Increased nutrients is the easiest way to get rid of non photosynthetic dinoflagellates, for photosynthetic dinoflagellates is slightly different as they do tribe in high nutrients tanks. The only way to deal with photosynthetic dinoflagellates to date has been the black out, unfortunately the blackout can kill coral also, this if proven right would be a more healthy way to deal with photosynthetic dinoflagellates in a tank without harming coral.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Why does it die almost instantly? It's grown in salt water? I'm confused on this part.

When I overdose live phyto to my tank, it certainly lives as I can see it growing on my glass. Not algae, but actual phyto(I've taken a sample to view under a microscope so I know it's still phyto).

I'm going to assume(we all know what happens when one assumes lol), that with your dead phyto, your just elevating nutrient levels, thus out competing the dino's for the same space with another type of bacteria that will feed off the now available nutrients.

Phytoplankton won’t survive if not kept in suspense in the water column, if you grow phytoplankton at home you know also that if the culture gets contaminated with tank water that the culture will crash by the tank microbes that live in the water column. We also never see a bloom in a tank, if the phytoplankton was to survive in a tank environment we needed to see an increase in mass as we see it in our cultures.
what I suspect that is happening, and I can only suspect as I haven’t got a way to test for bacteria is that my heterotrophic bacteria (herbivores) also known as “decomposers” are growing in numbers wend all the phytoplankton is available, as herbivores they will also feed on dinoflagellates which is an micro algae also. Hence the suspicion that because most of us that don’t have herbivores tent to only feed meaty foods that will raise our heterotrophic bacteria (carnivores) more than the (herbivores) in time the population of herbivores will be so low that the dinoflagellates won’t have a natural predator to keep them at bay. That’s my current thought and to me it makes sense. Could be wrong all I know was that decomposing dead phytoplankton removed photosynthetic dinoflagellates from my tank in under 5 days. There is more observation if you fallow the link at the beginning of the thread.

 

[josephxsxn]

The rule of zero is starting to get popular this days, it says that is very likely to cause dinoflagellates if any of the nutrients stays at zero for a period of time. It’s not known yet how long it takes for the bacteria to starve.

Both times that I have had dinos phosphates ended up at zero... The first time nitrates also ended up at zero but this second time my nitrates are 5 PPM. It's been about a whole year since they showed up last.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Both times that I have had dinos phosphates ended up at zero... The first time nitrates also ended up at zero but this second time my nitrates are 5 PPM. It's been about a whole year since they showed up last.

It only need one of the two to be at zero to cause a bloom, if both are detectable it’s most likely to be photosynthetic dinoflagellates.

 

[josephxsxn]

It only need one of the two to be at zero to cause a bloom, if both are detectable it’s most likely to be photosynthetic dinoflagellates.

That would make sense give. How I defeated them the first time... Dosed NeoNitro and NeoPhos to get the levels above zero and then 3 day blackout.

This second time I was thinking to myself about the blackout... Is there any place in the ocean that never gets shaded? Is our synthetic environment that never goes dark during a light period part of the greater problem. :Shrug: just a thought I had.