Is there anything at all i can do?

x Sarah x · Nov 30, 2009

:squigglemouth:

We upgraded our tank to a brand new one 2 weeks ago, but had nothing but problems since, in our old tank we had nitrate problems, but that seems to have settled right now, last week we had an ammonia spike and just this week upon testing the water its back down to zero...

However now we're having a Nitrite spike and all is not good :(

The water is highly poisonous and the fish are feeling it, they're stressed and have all broken out in white spot, so much so that the UV is finding it hard to keep up, the ones that can't catch it are still flicking madly because the water is obviously so deadly at the moment!

This week alone 4 fish have died, a Sleeper Goby, powder blue tang, Yellow tail wrasse and a white cheek tang :(

Now my Tuskfish is showing exact same symptoms as they did when they died and its not looking good... I just don't know what to do and my partner whos tank it is, is losing hope fast...
The trigger, regal tang, yellow tangs, angels, Tusk and orange shoulder tang are all looking like they're going the same way :( and my lawnmower blenny who was my first every fish has gone missing and hes never out of sight!

Theres just nothing we can do but watch and see whats comes of it :( Its so upsetting to see, we've had many of these fish for years, they were all so happy and healthy 2 weeks ago in their old tank and now they're all misserable and dying, I just sit and cry now...

How long will this go on for? how ling until the nitrites start to drop?
The algae bloom is just starting as of 2 days ago...

ca2or · Nov 30, 2009

are you sure that is your issue? There is no parasite pestering your fish?

Slick · Nov 30, 2009

you need to let your new tank sit and just run with mabe one or no fish in it for a while. This establishes it and gives it time to grow beneficial bacteria that can break down the waste the fish produce. if you have live rock and sand it helps speed up this process i believe. This is called cycling your tank. it should be done so that you don't get these ammonia and nitrate spikes.
slick

x Sarah x · Nov 30, 2009

The problem is we had no where to put the other fish when we set the tank up...

But everything from the old tank was transferred to the new, even the water, there's a load of live rock, 5 bags of live sand and the live sand out of their old tank, and just under half of the total amount of water is from their old tank, and the new being RO water.

Theres the old FX5 filter running on it still as well as a new sump which also contains live rock, sand, cheato, grape algae, glass pellets and those plastic rings (not bio balls) the proper ones.

Is there any idea as to how long the spike might last, or is it different for everyone?

Paul_N · Nov 30, 2009

How much sand was used from the old tank? You probably should have just used all new sand or at least rinsed the old sand. It's hard to say how long it will last at this point.

How high are the nitrates? Did you test for anything else like ammonia?

x Sarah x · Nov 30, 2009

About a third of the sand is the old stuff, but we needed it as its full of bugs that the sleeper goby and mandarins eat.

The nitrates are high but not at a dangerous level, and the ammonia is back down to nothing now but did have a spike last week for a while, its just the nitrites that are at a dangerous level now and literally burning the fish.

Paul_N · Nov 30, 2009

I had nitrates in the 180 - 200 range when I first had a FOWLR from using tap water and my fish were still OK. You could just buy some pods to reseed also in the future. The sleeper goby would be fine with the new sand. You try some of the liquid nitrate remover like AZNO3. My friend used it and it brought his nitrates down quickly. I would just do large water changes right now. I'd say 50%.

JR's Reef · Nov 30, 2009

You can do a water change to help bring everything down it might cause the cycle to take a couple days longer but for now it will bring the nitrates down to make it easier on the fish. Then just keep a eye on everything and do more WC as needed to keep everything down til is stable

x Sarah x · Nov 30, 2009

Like i say its not the Nitrates that are the problem right now, they've dropped considerably from what they were in the old tank, and it never caused a prob anyway, its the Nitrites that are the main concern right now, its on the brink of poisoning all the fish, we can't even feed them and thats not helping either with how grumpy the fish already are, but we can't afford for the level to rise anymore.
Its just heartbreaking to see, i can't even bare to look at the fish, as they're suffering so much it just makes me cry :squigglemouth:

JR's Reef · Nov 30, 2009

WC will bring those down also. That would be my plan of attack to save the fish.

Paul_N · Nov 30, 2009

x Sarah x said:
Like i say its not the Nitrates that are the problem right now, they've dropped considerably from what they were in the old tank, and it never caused a prob anyway, its the Nitrites that are the main concern right now, its on the brink of poisoning all the fish, we can't even feed them and thats not helping either with how grumpy the fish already are, but we can't afford for the level to rise anymore.
Its just heartbreaking to see, i can't even bare to look at the fish, as they're suffering so much it just makes me cry :squigglemouth:

Sorry still didn't have my coffee. I kept just reading nitrates instead of nitrites. Water changes will be your best choice right now. Like Joey said WC then test, then just repeat until levels are down. I hope the rest of the fish pull through.

Stray32 · Nov 30, 2009

The tank wasn't fully cycled, the fish should have never been placed in the tank until your Ammonia and Nitrites were at zero for at least a week. I hate to sound harsh, but this is a reality when it comes to saltwater tanks. Water changes might help some, but time it the only true cure for the cycle. You have had the tank set up for at least 2 weeks before adding any livestock, and that should have been a few hermits and snails.

I hope the rest of your fish pull through...

x Sarah x · Dec 2, 2009

Thanks anyway, i know it was a stupid thing to do, but its all a learning curve and its definitely a lesson learnt!

and the suffering goes on, sadly my tusk fish didn't pull through and i'm very upset about that as i don't think i'll find another one :(

and now my partners favourite fish the Emperor angel is lying on the bottom on his way out :(

The regal tang, green mandarin, orange shoulder and trigger look like they'll be next...

We only had enough water to do a 5% that night you recommended it and could only do a 10% change yesterday, but my partner is filling 3 barrels today and i've got one hooked up to the RO unit here so they should get a good change this evening, i'm hoping it will help a little, but they go down so fast we may lose several more fish by this evening...

The ammonia has gone up again a bit which has set us back as we thought things were on the mend and the fish haven't been fed for 4 days!

Ammonia is on 0.25 and Nitrite is wavering between 0.02 and 0.05, we have reduced salinity ever so slightly to try help with the white spot that they keep getting due to stress as the UV isn't doing a lot on its own.

I just wish this nightmare would end, already lost £400 of our favourite fish, monies not the object, its the fact the fish are suffering, but it all adds up :(

maus42 · Dec 2, 2009

First off, the "live" sand you added from bag needs to be cycled, so when you added that you restarted the cycle process right then and there. There's no telling how long the cycle will last because the rock isn't cycling, just your sand and the rock will help move that along. The only thing you can do right now is big water changes (50% minimum, I'd do at least 75%) every couple days until things get back under control.

Also you didn't need to bring any of your old sand over. The pods and other small animals your mandarin and other fish feed on live almost entirely in the rock, not the sand. The only exception to this would be if you had very large grain sand (as in 2mm+ size grains). But the pods in your rock would have repopulated the sand within a a week or two.

As you've no doubt learned never add livestock until you're reading all 0's for ammonia, nitrate and nitrites for at least a week. You can move established LR from tank to tank without worry, but when it comes to the sand it's best to either get new sand, or wash and dry your old stuff then let it repopulate with pods and such. Never use "live" sand from a bag... it's a waste of money since you have to cycle it anyways.

One last thing... EVERYONE in this hobby should have some kind of QT system to hold new animals before adding them to the main display. If you had a QT system you could have put your fish in there until the cycle passed.

Sikryd · Dec 2, 2009

I think everyone covered the bases pretty much. But I'll add some if it helps someone else out for next time.

The problem is/was that the tank cycled since most of the good bacteria died off in the transfer. Now the tank is cycling, which is killing the fish. It is a never ending cycle unless you are able to somehow get some of the fish to survive, or remove them. Only the HARDIEST of the fish will make it through this, if they even do.

For next time, or if it isn't too late. Use anything you can as a holding tank. Even a 30g brute trashcan with a HOB filter will work in a pinch. Treat it like a QT and do water changes in it daily until your main tank is done cycling. You will have to wait a month or so for the main tank to cycle, then add a fish every week or two, while watching the water parameters to make sure you aren't adding them too fast for the system to keep up.

Transfering a system is a big change that need not be taken lightly. I usually plan mine out, get everything together that I will need, then do the transfer. In a pinch, I have everything on hand to do it if there is a major tank catastrophy.

I have found it costs me more in the long run to fix a major issue, then it is to prevent one from happening.

Good luck and I hope things turn around for you.

saintperez · Dec 2, 2009

One thing that I didn't see anyone ask is how old was your old system and how deep was the sandbed? If the old tank had been established for 2+ years there's a good chance there were locked nitrates in the sand bed near the bottom and once that gets disturbed it's back to square one pretty much and daily water changes are the only solution. I do have to agree at first sign of fish getting ill you should have ran to get anything possible for a holding container and a canister filter like a fluval to hold your fish until this tank settles down. I hope your other fish make it.

Harry_Y · Dec 2, 2009

In this hobby the best thing is to go slow,
but it does not always work out that you can.

I had a 72 that sprung a leak, lucky for me I had two 32 gallon
plastic brute trashcans that I had from when I moved the tank.
I quickly moved everything into them minus the sand.

It took me about a month to setup the new larger tank, I used
all new water and new sand. Once I had it up to temperature I
added in the rocks, corals, and fish; and it all survived!

I think how I got away with it was because, I used all New water
and New Sand. The new tank did not have an apparent cycle.

I would not recommend using old sand or old water in a new tank.
A small amount just a bit to get things going, but not large amounts.

At this point I would suggest:

A. Get 2 Large containers of New Saltwater

B. Put the fish in one container and corals in the other.

C. Treat the fish if needed and Feed Them Well.

D. Let the new Tank Cycle.

E. Do water changes on Both containers and the New tank
(Changes on the Fish container being the most important).

.

sprinklerdudes · Dec 2, 2009

=1 new set up A-E

Harry_Y · Dec 2, 2009

sprinklerdudes said:
=1 new set up A-E

Pretty much.

Not a lot you can shortcut in this hobby.

Even when I add rocks, etc. to an established tank I do it slowly

stunreefer · Dec 2, 2009

Very nice post Sikryd, you nailed it :nerd:

Sikryd said:
The problem is/was that the tank cycled since most of the good bacteria died off in the transfer. Now the tank is cycling, which is killing the fish. It is a never ending cycle unless you are able to somehow get some of the fish to survive, or remove them. Only the HARDIEST of the fish will make it through this, if they even do.

Nitrite and Ammonia are extremely toxic to fish, which unfortuantely you're finding out the hard way. Nitrate on the other hand will be tolerated upwards of 200 ppm with ease by fish.

Sikryd said:
For next time, or if it isn't too late. Use anything you can as a holding tank. Even a 30g brute trashcan with a HOB filter will work in a pinch. Treat it like a QT and do water changes in it daily until your main tank is done cycling. You will have to wait a month or so for the main tank to cycle, then add a fish every week or two, while watching the water parameters to make sure you aren't adding them too fast for the system to keep up.

Your remaining fish are still being poisoned, so I would recommend moving them out and doing what's described above. Have lots of water on hand to do water changes - you are the filter in this situation.