Is this ICH again?!

[HotRocks]

Agh. I jumped the gun. I’m sorry you guys. I got incredibly excited. Still white dusting over the hippo and kole tang. Ugh. Sorry you guys. I’ll keep with the plan. FW dip and I’ll finish the copper. 2 more days then I’ll run Prazi and NFG in observation.

When you say white dusting, what is it like? Looks like velvet or does it look like discoloration of the fish itself?

 

[Dubs83]

When you say white dusting, what is it like? Looks like velvet or does it look like discoloration of the fish itself?

No. I found a book called The Marine Fish Health and Feeding Handbook by Bob Goemans and Lance Ichinotsubo and this is the closest picture I could find of what my tangs look like.

It’s not quite as bad as this and most look like raised bumps under the pectoral fin.

I did net them both and tried scraping whatever it was off the fish to have a look under the microscope but it would not come off. I also did a freshwater bath for 5 minutes and nothing came loose. I’m starting to think it’s what you guys suggested earlier, a reaction to the copper. Today is the first day I saw them scratching against the pipes in QT. It seems that it’s just the tangs that are effected by this, though.

I changed the water and started part of the first Furan2 treatment and 2nd dose of kanaplex. They have 2 days left in copper... just to make sure... move them to a sterile tank after? I’m hoping the absence of copper will clear this up.

Also, is there a tool anyone can recommend to scrape these things off the fish?

 

[User]

Technically these would be best-

https://www.ebay.com/itm/182853586571

You can swirl hard in ethanol to clean and air dry before re-use. Not culturing anything so technically reuseable , and transfer of contaminant organisms to a slide for viewing is going to be numerically negligible compared to the thousands of organisms that’ll be present from a wound scrape.

 

[Dubs83]

Technically these would be best-

https://www.ebay.com/itm/182853586571

You can swirl hard in ethanol to clean and air dry before re-use. Not culturing anything so technically reuseable , and transfer of contaminant organisms to a slide for viewing is going to be numerically negligible compared to the thousands of organisms that’ll be present from a wound scrape.

Thanks, Neil. You’ve been a tremendous help. I tried the side of a toothpick but I wasn’t sure if I was pressing hard enough. I went with the scales and against the scales but couldn’t seem to pick anything off.

 

[User]

..

 

[Dubs83]

Could this be Lymphocystis?

Edit: I was doing some googling and found this image:

Which was a case of Lympho. I played with the photo of my hippo and it looks very similar

My book does mention that exposure to copper can incite lympho. This would explain why both tangs are showing signs of... no?

 

[HotRocks]

Lympho is viral. Copper is an immunosuppressant, so it can definitely exacerbate the symptoms quite a bit.

 

[User]

Lympho is viral. Copper is an immunosuppressant, so it can definitely exacerbate the symptoms quite a bit.

It would also be impossible to see using a light microscope if a sample was prepared for viewing

 

[Dubs83]

A new one is on the way!

 

[Dubs83]

Lympho is viral. Copper is an immunosuppressant, so it can definitely exacerbate the symptoms quite a bit.

I’m on Day 12 of copper and just don’t see how ich would make it through

 

[User]

Thanks, Neil. You’ve been a tremendous help. I tried the side of a toothpick but I wasn’t sure if I was pressing hard enough. I went with the scales and against the scales but couldn’t seem to pick anything off.

If you touched it, it was hard enough. I do a demo in class where I have students literally try to touch the surface of a ‘clean’ agarose plate soooo gently they dont think anything transferred and they always grow bacteria.

That method will pick up bacteria, and parasites. You won’t see viruses though, since they are a couple orders of magnitude smaller (in the most part).

 

[Dubs83]

If you touched it, it was hard enough. I do a demo in class where I have students literally try to touch the surface of a ‘clean’ agarose plate soooo gently they dont think anything transferred and they always grow bacteria.

That method will pick up bacteria, and parasites. You won’t see viruses though, since they are a couple orders of magnitude smaller (in the most part).

Should I have let it sit a bit in the slide? Now I feel like I’ve caused some internal damage lol. Jesus I’m a newb

I honestly think it was me moving the slide around by hand. I wouldn’t call it a precision instrument. The microscope you recommend seems to be better

 

[Victoria M]

This is crazy. It looks like ich. In the one picture of your fish it also looked like sloughing or sliming, or even a fungus kinda. That is what I was hoping to see under a microscope. Were you able to see the tangs gills? I have never seen lympho look like that. Can you seperate this fish into its own tank? Didn't you think the fish looked better for a few hours?
Nothing came off with the freshwater dip? That rules out flukes.

 

[Dubs83]

This is crazy. It looks like ich. In the one picture of your fish it also looked like sloughing or sliming, or even a fungus kinda. That is what I was hoping to see under a microscope. Were you able to see the tangs gills? I have never seen lympho look like that. Can you seperate this fish into its own tank? Didn't you think the fish looked better for a few hours?
Nothing came off with the freshwater dip? That rules out flukes.

Absolutely nothing in the dip.

The only issue I have with ich is they’ve been both covered in it since copper has started and then REstarted.

I was not able to get a good look at the gills.

I plan on separating them after they finish the copper

I had a microscope come in but it requires me to move the slide by hand, which was tough because... well, it was tough lol. Hard to make small adjustments under tension! I have anew one on the way.

Edit:

It wasn’t til I started looking through the book that mentioned copper can cause lympho to show up. Excessive exposure to copper is what it says.

 

[Clownfish2]

Here is my recommendation: 30 days in copper and antibiotics(if you see bacterial infections). Then give the fish a 37% formaldehyde/formalin bath for 60 minutes. I use formalin-ms. I think directions said 20 drops per gallon. Preferably do this bath outside because it’s a carcinogen. In wintertime, I would do the bath in a heated bucket in the garage using a mask, goggles, and gloves. After the bath, do a 80-100% water change on your QT and then toss the fish back in and observe them for 30 days just to be sure.

I understand the frustration. I have two QT 20 gallon longs running and it always seems to be something such as loss of appetite or spots. One of my QTs, I have a clown and a sailfin tang which have had issues for months now. I have literally tried everything from cupramine with a Hanna to chloroquine phosphate. One week they would have spots or ragged fins. The following week, the spots would disappear. So I did the 60 minute formalin bath and while that was happening, I did a 95% water change on the QT and added the fish back for observation. Its been 12 days and the clown and tang are doing well with no symptoms. Perhaps 2 more weeks of observation I will toss them in the display. I hope your fish get better.

 

[Victoria M]

Absolutely nothing in the dip.

The only issue I have with ich is they’ve been both covered in it since copper has started and then REstarted.

I was not able to get a good look at the gills.

I plan on separating them after they finish the copper

I had a microscope come in but it requires me to move the slide by hand, which was tough because... well, it was tough lol. Hard to make small adjustments under tension! I have anew one on the way.

Edit:

It wasn’t til I started looking through the book that mentioned copper can cause lympho to show up. Excessive exposure to copper is what it says.

It is so weird, I agree. I suppose lymphocytosis makes the most sense then. Thru process of elimination I think you can say it makes sense, right? I meant it is weird how it looks like ich, not that I was convinced it is ich. Sorry.... in my head it sounded clear. lol. I am thinking when you pull the tang out of the copper, you will probably know for sure. If it is ich it will look better then BOOM ich will come back.
You sending you microscope back? There was a discussion that humblefish started about microscopes and there were a couple good videos to watch.

 

[Dubs83]

Yea I mean, I don’t know. It’s only after I started going through this book that it kind of clicked and I thought, can Lympho cover the body?! I then looked it up and it does somewhat resemble what other people have posted. Then I read a little and-

Again, I have NO CLUE if that’s correct and as you stated, it’s only a guess based on deduction. Who knows, they’re almost done, tomorrow is day 14 and on Monday they go into a fresh tank.

Do you recommend I left the get acclimated or start with prazi and NFG right away?

 

[Dubs83]

It is so weird, I agree. I suppose lymphocytosis makes the most sense then. Thru process of elimination I think you can say it makes sense, right? I meant it is weird how it looks like ich, not that I was convinced it is ich. Sorry.... in my head it sounded clear. lol. I am thinking when you pull the tang out of the copper, you will probably know for sure. If it is ich it will look better then BOOM ich will come back.
You sending you microscope back? There was a discussion that humblefish started about microscopes and there were a couple good videos to watch.

Oh and yes! I sent the other microscope back.

 

[User]

Oh and yes! I sent the other microscope back.

Lol, I pointed him towards an alternative that had a few refinements to make it easier to use. No excuse for a non mechanical stage in this day and age. We’re not animals

 

[Victoria M]

Yea I mean, I don’t know. It’s only after I started going through this book that it kind of clicked and I thought, can Lympho cover the body?! I then looked it up and it does somewhat resemble what other people have posted. Then I read a little and-

Again, I have NO CLUE if that’s correct and as you stated, it’s only a guess based on deduction. Who knows, they’re almost done, tomorrow is day 14 and on Monday they go into a fresh tank.

Do you recommend I left the get acclimated or start with prazi and NFG right away?

If this is lymphocytosis, then it is probable that we have been on the wrong path since the second go round of white spots. It makes me think the tang just needs a break from medications. For the tang, My inclination is to stop medications and provide excellent nutrition, water and hiding places. But hotrocks is more familiar with these other medications and how well they are tolerated.