Issues with sandbed despite 0 NO3 and PO4

[Cwentz758]

You can get almost any cheap microscope from Amazon and be able to see the Dinos.

 

[DrHollyW00D]

Likely Dino’s-

the 0 phosphate will allow them to take over because other competitors die out.
You need a microscope to identify them and confirm.

if they are swimming small golden ovals/sesame seed shape then it’s dinos. Needle like structures would be diatoms.

there is a massive thread on dinos- I’d go there and start by identifying if this is what you are dealing with.

@CDavmd would you mind confirming that they are dinos? Where can I find this thread on dinos? Sorry, I'm new and not very familiar with the website.

 

[CDavmd]

@CDavmd would you mind confirming that they are dinos? Where can I find this thread on dinos? Sorry, I'm new and not very familiar with the website.

Unfortunately yes those are dinos. Try to get a better picture with some sand grains. The picture is a bit blurry but they look like Amphidinium species to me.

that species likes to hug the sand. They will disappear at night because they go deeper in the sand bed and then reappear during the photo period.

the good news is they are not toxic like other species. The bad is they are harder to get rid of because they stay out of the water column where UV might be effective.

get a better picture so I can confirm and I can advise you further. One thing I’ll tell you now….be patient. This is a long and frustrating journey you’re about to begin but you can beat this.

here is the best Dino thread-



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

 

[Cwentz758]

Unfortunately yes those are dinos. Try to get a better picture with some sand grains. The picture is a bit blurry but they look like Amphidinium species to me.

that species likes to hug the sand. They will disappear at night because they go deeper in the sand bed and then reappear during the photo period.

the good news is they are not toxic like other species. The bad is they are harder to get rid of because they stay out of the water column where UV might be effective.

get a better picture so I can confirm and I can advise you further. One thing I’ll tell you now….be patient. This is a long and frustrating journey you’re about to begin but you can beat this.

here is the best Dino thread-



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

Agreed it was close to a six month journey in my last tank. Luckily it doesn’t harm anything in the meantime. The most harmful thing you can do is start dumping all sorts of additives and remedies in the tank. Stick the course with one and if it doesn’t work move on to the next and complete that, nuking your tank ends up hurting you and your tank in the long run.

 

[CDavmd]

Yes!! 1000x yes!!! As stated don’t start dumping things in your tank or looking for a quick fix.

I have suggestions on what works and worked for me but I want to confirm first.

 

[taricha]

would you mind confirming that they are dinos?

Amphidinium dinos indeed.

 

[DrHollyW00D]

Unfortunately yes those are dinos. Try to get a better picture with some sand grains. The picture is a bit blurry but they look like Amphidinium species to me.

that species likes to hug the sand. They will disappear at night because they go deeper in the sand bed and then reappear during the photo period.

the good news is they are not toxic like other species. The bad is they are harder to get rid of because they stay out of the water column where UV might be effective.

get a better picture so I can confirm and I can advise you further. One thing I’ll tell you now….be patient. This is a long and frustrating journey you’re about to begin but you can beat this.

here is the best Dino thread-



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

I apologize for the blurry pics. Hopefully these are better. There's also small patches starting to grow of cyano, I'm sure you'll confirm with the picture. There seems to be patches of cyano between the sand and glass.

Yes, it loves the sand. It does seem to disappear during the night, then boom their back during lights on. They must be very photosynthetic.

I will take all and any advice please! I completely understand that it will take time, I just don't want any casualties as far as my corals go.

I'll start reading that forum while I wait for you advise and guidance. Thank you!

 

[DrHollyW00D]

Agreed it was close to a six month journey in my last tank. Luckily it doesn’t harm anything in the meantime. The most harmful thing you can do is start dumping all sorts of additives and remedies in the tank. Stick the course with one and if it doesn’t work move on to the next and complete that, nuking your tank ends up hurting you and your tank in the long run.

Would you mind sharing your journey? What you learn? Things to do differently?

 

[DrHollyW00D]

Amphidinium dinos indeed.

Hi, @taricha I've been reading some of your forums. Thank you for confirming the diagnosis. Would you recommend the dosing silicates method or the 7 day regiment that you put on here. I can't seem to find that forum again (sorry new to R2R), but the one where you introduce other bacteria to compete with the Dinos, some of the equipment included air stones?

 

[Cwentz758]

Well I learned a few things.

Most importantly was monitor my levels of Nitrate and Phos more and keep them detectable and not to chase number when the tank is doing well. (This is obviously for the future after beating dinos)

second most important was figure which type of dinos you have. I reacted by buying things that wouldn’t help. The most expensive was a UV sterilizer.

What seemed to work for me was dosing silicates creating diatoms which let them out compete the dinos. However my corals hated it and I lost most of them.

 

[Garf]

 

[DrHollyW00D]

Well I learned a few things.

Most importantly was monitor my levels of Nitrate and Phos more and keep them detectable and not to chase number when the tank is doing well. (This is obviously for the future after beating dinos)

second most important was figure which type of dinos you have. I reacted by buying things that wouldn’t help. The most expensive was a UV sterilizer.

What seemed to work for me was dosing silicates creating diatoms which let them out compete the dinos. However my corals hated it and I lost most of them.

I'm not willing to jeopardize my coral lol

This might be a very dumb question, but could I potentially move all my coral, rocks, fish etc. to a temporary holding tank and then take out 50%? or more percent of the affected sand and replace it with new sand? It's been confirmed that I have Amphidinium Dinos and they like to hug the sand. I understand that I would be getting rid of beneficial bacteria along the way. Once the new sand is in place I can put everything back and use the same water? I figure some of the Dinos will just stay in the water, but at least I'm removing the colonies? Like I said this might be extremely dumb of me to suggest, I'm just trying to think of anything and everything. I have a 50 gallon lagoon AIO so it wouldn't be a hassle to replace sand if that would be beneficial to my ecosystem.

 

[Cwentz758]

So I completely removed my sand. Every bit. Put it in a bucket and rinsed it so hard with hot water for an hour. They still came back about a week later.

I could have also had other issues going on that caused my corals to go south.

 

[DrHollyW00D]

So I completely removed my sand. Every bit. Put it in a bucket and rinsed it so hard with hot water for an hour. They still came back about a week later.

I could have also had other issues going on that caused my corals to go south.

Well dang. That really sucks! Thank you for sharing.

 

[DrHollyW00D]

Unfortunately yes those are dinos. Try to get a better picture with some sand grains. The picture is a bit blurry but they look like Amphidinium species to me.

that species likes to hug the sand. They will disappear at night because they go deeper in the sand bed and then reappear during the photo period.

the good news is they are not toxic like other species. The bad is they are harder to get rid of because they stay out of the water column where UV might be effective.

get a better picture so I can confirm and I can advise you further. One thing I’ll tell you now….be patient. This is a long and frustrating journey you’re about to begin but you can beat this.

here is the best Dino thread-



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

@CDavmd I was able to get a better pic hopefully this helps a little better

 

[CDavmd]

@CDavmd I was able to get a better pic hopefully this helps a little better

Hi, sorry for the delay- I have been very busy and on call this past weekend.

So @taricha confirmed that you have Amphidinium ( He is the authority by the way). Your most recent image further confirms this. I have unfortunately dealt with Dino's twice in the past. Taricha helped immensely in beating them. I will describe my experience and recommendations. Others may differ and your mileage may vary but here goes-

My first bout with these was about 5 years ago. It was a 11 year old system that had been started with ocean live rock and had been thriving for years. I was an early adopter of vodka dosing but eventually switched to NOPOX. While I was away on a trip my wife accidentally confused the dose and more than double it daily for 10 days. I returned to the cleanest looking tank I had ever had to be followed shortly by golden brown on the sand. At first I mistook them for diatoms but I could not beat them. My phosphates were 0 and stayed 0 for some time. Eventually I diagnosed large cell amphidinium. I went on to:

1. siphon sand, wash it in water, and return. Dino's came back in a few days
2. DINOX- didn't work and killed many of my corals
3. Vibrant- didn't work, made things worse and caused cyano
4. Temperature drop after a power outage- knocked them back for about 2 weeks then they came back.
5. All the while, fed heavily and dosed phosphates. Corals suffered, took months for phosphates to actually climb.
6. Dr. Tim's recipe- no success
7. Microbacter 7 and clean - no success
8. Peroxide- no success
9. Blackouts- terrible for the system, looks good for a couple days then really bad.

I finally just siphoned out all the sand and went bare bottom for months. Later introduced new sand after having it in my sump for a few weeks to get seeded. That finally worked.

I eventually took that system down and started a new one that can be seen in my build thread. It was marco rock but also seeded with a few pieces of ocean rock from Kp aquatics. Early on I noticed some golden discoloration on my sand that was not diatoms. Under the microscope they were non-motile and stuck to the sand particles. Taricha was not sure what they were but in retrospect I think they were an encysted dormant species of dino. This tank was thriving but I had an ich outbreak and had to go fallow. Despite trying to keep my phosphates in range, they bottomed out when I did not ghost feed for a few days. All seemed ok until I decided to add a little bit more sand to the system when I reintroduced the fish. Immediately I saw a golden snot develop. Cyano also came along at this time. It was a mix of ostreopsis (toxic) and small cell amphidinium. I added UV, siphoned, raised phosphates and eventually knocked them back only to followed by large cell Amphidinium. This time around I tackled it in the way mentioned above:

1. Dosed Silicates (sponge excel) until I saw a heavy diatom bloom. Kept dosing after that and still do actually. My corals did not suffer from this.
2. Seeded the tank with pods (copepods, amphipods, shrimp, etc) Basically increased the diversity of the microfauna.
3. Added a couple pieces of kp aquatics rock from the real ocean to again increase biodiversity
4. Siphoned daily through a 10 micron filter in my sump any golden sand areas
5. Fed heavily
6. Added the purple sulfur bacteria they sell on algae barn.

Eventually after months, they went away. Since then I cut back my daily dose of sponge excel to keep the diatoms from being visible (still see them under the microscope), I add monthly pods to the system, and I siphon the sand every couple weeks though a 10 micron filter.

I hope this helps. Best of luck!

 

[DrHollyW00D]

Hi, sorry for the delay- I have been very busy and on call this past weekend.

So @taricha confirmed that you have Amphidinium ( He is the authority by the way). Your most recent image further confirms this. I have unfortunately dealt with Dino's twice in the past. Taricha helped immensely in beating them. I will describe my experience and recommendations. Others may differ and your mileage may vary but here goes-

My first bout with these was about 5 years ago. It was a 11 year old system that had been started with ocean live rock and had been thriving for years. I was an early adopter of vodka dosing but eventually switched to NOPOX. While I was away on a trip my wife accidentally confused the dose and more than double it daily for 10 days. I returned to the cleanest looking tank I had ever had to be followed shortly by golden brown on the sand. At first I mistook them for diatoms but I could not beat them. My phosphates were 0 and stayed 0 for some time. Eventually I diagnosed large cell amphidinium. I went on to:

1. siphon sand, wash it in water, and return. Dino's came back in a few days
2. DINOX- didn't work and killed many of my corals
3. Vibrant- didn't work, made things worse and caused cyano
4. Temperature drop after a power outage- knocked them back for about 2 weeks then they came back.
5. All the while, fed heavily and dosed phosphates. Corals suffered, took months for phosphates to actually climb.
6. Dr. Tim's recipe- no success
7. Microbacter 7 and clean - no success
8. Peroxide- no success
9. Blackouts- terrible for the system, looks good for a couple days then really bad.

I finally just siphoned out all the sand and went bare bottom for months. Later introduced new sand after having it in my sump for a few weeks to get seeded. That finally worked.

I eventually took that system down and started a new one that can be seen in my build thread. It was marco rock but also seeded with a few pieces of ocean rock from Kp aquatics. Early on I noticed some golden discoloration on my sand that was not diatoms. Under the microscope they were non-motile and stuck to the sand particles. Taricha was not sure what they were but in retrospect I think they were an encysted dormant species of dino. This tank was thriving but I had an ich outbreak and had to go fallow. Despite trying to keep my phosphates in range, they bottomed out when I did not ghost feed for a few days. All seemed ok until I decided to add a little bit more sand to the system when I reintroduced the fish. Immediately I saw a golden snot develop. Cyano also came along at this time. It was a mix of ostreopsis (toxic) and small cell amphidinium. I added UV, siphoned, raised phosphates and eventually knocked them back only to followed by large cell Amphidinium. This time around I tackled it in the way mentioned above:

1. Dosed Silicates (sponge excel) until I saw a heavy diatom bloom. Kept dosing after that and still do actually. My corals did not suffer from this.
2. Seeded the tank with pods (copepods, amphipods, shrimp, etc) Basically increased the diversity of the microfauna.
3. Added a couple pieces of kp aquatics rock from the real ocean to again increase biodiversity
4. Siphoned daily through a 10 micron filter in my sump any golden sand areas
5. Fed heavily
6. Added the purple sulfur bacteria they sell on algae barn.

Eventually after months, they went away. Since then I cut back my daily dose of sponge excel to keep the diatoms from being visible (still see them under the microscope), I add monthly pods to the system, and I siphon the sand every couple weeks though a 10 micron filter.

I hope this helps. Best of luck!

@CDavmd thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, I'll start applying what you suggested.