Po4 issues, no blue tips, time for a skimmer upgrade?

[IPT]

I'm just posting to the sounding board and thinking out loud. I have a mixed SPS dominant 120 Gal with 40 gal sump (estimate it at 120 actual water volume). Generally my N03 hangs around 6-9ppm, but my Po4 seems to be more of an issue and climbs out of sync with the N03. I find myself reaching for ROWA-phos more and more often as it keeps creeping up from .06 to .1ppm (HANNA Ultra low tester) (recently got Phophat-E but haven't tried it yet).

My tank looks good, but not great. I'm getting good growth on all my SPS and have aMaxima growing for many months now. Flow if high with Tunze ORCA, MP 40, MP 10, AI Nero3, a Gyre and my Eheim 1260 return. I find I don't have the blue on the tips I should and some colors are a little muted vs when I first got them. I suspect its the Po4.

Anyway, my tank is under major changes after losing my 7 inch Rabbitfish and then yanking (3) 3" damsels out that killed anything I tried to put in. So, I'll be adding a new rabbitfish, and a bunch of other smaller peaceful fish. I'll have to see where the new balance falls over sometime.
I use an ancient Tunze Skimmer which is great. I've had it 10 years, probably more. Its a black rectangle with the round riser tube and collection cup one piece and it just slips into the body. I have no idea what size tank it is even rated for. As I think about all of this and try to raise the bar in my SPS color and quality I am wondering if my skimmer might be a weak link?

As for dosing I currently dose 10 ml of N03 a day (it may be a diluted version of the DIY - I want to say 20g of the nitrate to 500ml of water but that's just me trying to recall off the top of my head). I dose a gallon a day of saturated Kalk and 145ml of DIY Part A and B daily too. PAR is generally in the 250-450 range depending on where in the tank I measure. I have 4 T5's Blue Plus, 2 kessil 360x's and 3 Meridan 11's. I realize I has the white on the meridians to high (50%) for 6 hours a day and I lowered that now down to about a peak of 20% for only 3 hours.

So, and thoughts, questions or suggestions?

Edit - based on some of the comments I want to make it clear this 120 gallon was re-booted over 3 years ago so is not new. The change in fish just happened in the last 2+ weeks and the issues were going on way before that).

 

[mcarroll]

If you are still making big changes to livestock and lighting, then the tank is just unsettled, generally speaking....as if it was a more or less new tank.

If you have a full size comline skimmer (the 9012 model) then you're probably fine with a light bio-load. But if you have a sump, that is not the idea skimmer....their 9410 in-sump skimmer is superior to the 9012. If you really like that skimmer because of how compact it is it's *possible* that you could upgrade it with the DC hydrofoamer (in place of the AC pump running it now.) I'd double check that with Roger @ Tunze (@rvitko).

I don't know how much difference you will notice in the tank from upgrading though....it's not like you're going from no-skimmer to having a skimmer, you know what I mean?

I'd say have patience while you work out those other issues and then see how things settle after a few more weeks.

 

[IPT]

If you are still making big changes to livestock and lighting, then the tank is just unsettled, generally speaking....as if it was a more or less new tank.

Oh, I should have been more clear about that. This has been an issue for several months. It's just that now all this happened with the fish. I was thinking about the skimmer and or how to get my P04 down for some time (thinking that, or having too much white in my spectrum) could affect the coral coloration.

 

[Dan_P]

Oh, I should have been more clear about that. This has been an issue for several months. It's just that now all this happened with the fish. I was thinking about the skimmer and or how to get my P04 down for some time (thinking that, or having too much white in my spectrum) could affect the coral coloration.

I cannot see a change in skimmer as a very high priority nor the phosphate level being all that terrible based on the details. Maybe take another shot at describing what seems to be less than optimal.

 

[IPT]

I cannot see a change in skimmer as a very high priority nor the phosphate level being all that terrible based on the details. Maybe take another shot at describing what seems to be less than optimal.

Yes, I think it might really be that I had my white spectrum set too high on the Meridians. I just noticed some corals lost their "pop", and vibrancy (too much white overshadowing the blues?).

I also have a few other corals like Bubble Bath Unicorn that is dull and lacks those vibrant colorful tips, as does my BC Aquatic-man. Aquatic-man tips are white (good growth) but no color (the teal it should have).

I see all these pics with bright blue tips and I don't have really any that do. It must be something. I know it's not PAR because I used an Apogee 510 and I'm well over 300 PAR into the upper 400's in a few places.

Also, I guess I'd like to figure out why my Po4 is climbing? I really don't feed heavy, and with the loss of a 7" fish I'd expect it to drop rather that continue to climb. I stopped feeding pellets weeks ago wondering if that was it. Only feed rinsed mysis or spirulina brine shrimp.

 

[fish_collector]

Fwiw, phosphate at 0.1 isn't causing any issues. I don't believe nitrate and phosphate need to be in sync. Phosphate will continue to accumulate and won't ever come down on it's own, you'll have to remove it via one of the proven methods, LC, GFO etc.

 

[slingfox]

Many successful SPS folks keep phosphates at or higher that 0.1ppm. That level of nutrients is a non-issue. Some would way it would be okay for it to go even higher!

According to you Tank Thread, it seems like your SPS tank is newly setup. If that is the case, I assume that is the reason for the lack of color. I did a complete display tank reset one year ago. I have two SPS frags from my prior setup that didn’t color up until last month around the 1-year mark. They look like completely different corals now! I still have a few SPS frags which I added a few months in the reset which lost their color and still haven’t colored up. I believe this is all part of the fun of being an SPS keeper!

 

[mcarroll]

I see all these pics with

Fakery in pics is WAY WAY common in the industry. Someone will object to the term fakery, but it is what it is.

Coral pics rarely represent what you see in person, especially colors....this was true in the old days of halide and florescent lighting where cameras could record a first-hand picture competently. But now with LED lighting, a first-hand unaltered pic is completely unviewable "blue-wash" – so doctoring pictures has become commonplace just to get any pictures of tanks at all. (Folks have to doctor their lighting setup to get viewable pics for fish diseas diagnosis, for example. Cameras cannot handle LED reef lighting.)

IMO, if you didn't see the coral first hand, you can safely act like you just didn't see it at all.

As the old saying goes, "believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see." ;)

I see all these pics with bright blue tips and I don't have really any that do. It must be something. I know it's not PAR because I used an Apogee 510 and I'm well over 300 PAR into the upper 400's in a few places.

If you haven't seen Dana Riddle's articles on what "too much" light means to corals, I'd dig those up post-haste.....300-400 is too much for some corals...maybe most corals.

Just make sure, because "more" is not better where corals and lighting are concerned.

 

[mcarroll]

The artiles I referred to above are on reefs.com in the advanced aquarist magazine archive there...but here's a post by Dana that goes into the same subject:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/why-too-much-light-can-be-harmful-to-zooxanthellae.748239/

If you like that, circle back to find those articles from the AA archive.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I'm sorry for your woes and hope it gets better but I am also skeptical that .1 of phosphate is the cause of the issue's. Good luck

 

[fish_collector]

Agreed with par in the 300-400 range can be too much for some corals. The photoperiod has a lot to do with it. In my experience, overstimulated corals turn brown because of zooxanthellae production, I've had the best color when I ran my par in the 200-250 range. I've played with it and started bumping up par over several weeks and what I got was bleaching near the top. So be careful with the par.

Color isn't tied to par alone though, it's also related to available trace elements, nutrients and also likely related to alkalinity and calcium availability. As I understand it tissue growth has to be in sync with the rate of calcification, everything matters with acropora which is why it's so hard to diagnose issues with them. The fact that they are slow to react doesn't help either. You can make a change and not see the effects for weeks, and it might not be what you wanted and you may not even realize you did anything that upset them. If I changed my light settings today I wouldn't see any changes with my corals for perhaps a few weeks, it's frustrating.

And a note regarding par, 300 par in my tank isn't the same as 300 par in your tank. There are too many variables that affect it. The spectrum is what's important and our eyes can't detect minute changes in it, but a coral certainly can. A 450nm diode from my Reefi may not produce the same spectrum as a 450nm diode from a Radion or whatever, they come from a different diode manufacturer and are in a different optic in the light and shine through water with different organic loads which ultimately filter out different properties of the light. Read about how an LED works and how different colors are produced, it's mind blowing

 

[IPT]

Many successful SPS folks keep phosphates at or higher that 0.1ppm. That level of nutrients is a non-issue. Some would way it would be okay for it to go even higher!

According to you Tank Thread, it seems like your SPS tank is newly setup. If that is the case, I assume that is the reason for the lack of color. I did a complete display tank reset one year ago. I have two SPS frags from my prior setup that didn’t color up until last month around the 1-year mark. They look like completely different corals now! I still have a few SPS frags which I added a few months in the reset which lost their color and still haven’t colored up. I believe this is all part of the fun of being an SPS keeper!

Actually the tank re-boot was over 3 years ago. I started with some of the old rock too to seed the tank and that rock was 20 years old. The tank thread is more about a 40 breeder I'm setting up (which is new) and I throw some stuff in there about the 120.

Also a few months ago this tank (the 120) had better color than it does now. of course the skimmer was the same. I did find out I was using the regular P04 tester not the low range P04 tester, so who knows where my Po4 really was (actually I have ICPs and looking back it was .04. and .06 at that time).

The main thing I think I really changed was the lights. I took away an Ecotech XR15 pro and an AI blade and added 2 Meridian 11's. I did have the whites up to 50% at times so i think it was just too much white.

I do know that a lot of the sites (as embeleished as there colors may be - though I've seen video from "visitors" of thise tanks and the colors still blow mine away) like Pirates Reef, Leonardos reef, and other where the P04 is in the low single digits or hovering just above .01, and No3 is often 5 or less.

Anyway, I guess I need to just wait and see what happens now that I dropped the whites back to 15%. Then, once things stabilize I may drop the P04 as an experiment. Guess it saves me the expense of a new skimmer!

 

[slingfox]

Actually the tank re-boot was over 3 years ago. I started with some of the old rock too to seed the tank and that rock was 20 years old. The tank thread is more about a 40 breeder I'm setting up (which is new) and I throw some stuff in there about the 120.

Also a few months ago this tank (the 120) had better color than it does now. of course the skimmer was the same. I did find out I was using the regular P04 tester not the low range P04 tester, so who knows where my Po4 really was (actually I have ICPs and looking back it was .04. and .06 at that time).

The main thing I think I really changed was the lights. I took away an Ecotech XR15 pro and an AI blade and added 2 Meridian 11's. I did have the whites up to 50% at times so i think it was just too much white.

I do know that a lot of the sites (as embeleished as there colors may be - though I've seen video from "visitors" of thise tanks and the colors still blow mine away) like Pirates Reef, Leonardos reef, and other where the P04 is in the low single digits or hovering just above .01, and No3 is often 5 or less.

Anyway, I guess I need to just wait and see what happens now that I dropped the whites back to 15%. Then, once things stabilize I may drop the P04 as an experiment. Guess it saves me the expense of a new skimmer!

None of the most well-known higher end SPS farmers run phosphate in the low single digits or hovering just above 0.01 ppm. That is outdated thinking.

For example, for phosphate levels: Leonardo’s Reef targets 0.08-1.00 ppm, Pirates Reef targets 0.05-1.00 ppm, Pieces of the Ocean targets 0.05 - 1.00 ppm, and Thirsty’s Reef runs his tanks at 0.20 - 0.30 ppm.

You also have to look at these phosphate levels in context: These growers have huge colonies of SPS which account for a significant amount of nutrient export. Unlike the typical home reefer, the high volume SPS growers need to make sure they nutrients don’t bottom out since their coral colonies are so large.

 

[IPT]

None of the most well-known higher end SPS farmers run phosphate in the low single digits or hovering just above 0.01 ppm. That is outdated thinking.

For example, for phosphate levels: Leonardo’s Reef targets 0.08-1.00 ppm, Pirates Reef targets 0.05-1.00 ppm, Pieces of the Ocean targets 0.05 - 1.00 ppm, and Thirsty’s Reef runs his tanks at 0.20 - 0.30 ppm.

You also have to look at these phosphate levels in context: These growers have huge colonies of SPS which account for a significant amount of nutrient export. Unlike the typical home reefer, the high volume SPS growers need to make sure they nutrients don’t bottom out since their coral colonies are so large.

Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[mcarroll]

None of the most well-known higher end SPS farmers run phosphate in the low single digits or hovering just above 0.01 ppm. That is outdated thinking.

For example, for phosphate levels: Leonardo’s Reef targets 0.08-1.00 ppm, Pirates Reef targets 0.05-1.00 ppm, Pieces of the Ocean targets 0.05 - 1.00 ppm, and Thirsty’s Reef runs his tanks at 0.20 - 0.30 ppm.

Now we know who knows all the high end SPS farmers!!

 

[JWsticks]

I rebooted my tank tank last month with bleached Marco rocks and came off a minor dino battle also where P04 crashed to 0 and SPS suffered. From my experience, PO4 from 0.05 - .10 is the sweet spot with NO3 at 2.5-5 ppm. PO4 will play a part in darkening a coral when it is higher ie > .10 however you can balance that out with running high par > 300. More importantly, pick a number and keep it within that range where it is STABLE. Most of the high end coral growers mentioned earlier, also run higher PAR with the higher nutrient levels.

For coloration, I would blast them with BLUE. As a test, I'm currently running just BLUE leds with 400 - 500 par at the top of my rock work and the coloration for SPS has been amazing. I have a coral sitting at 600 PAR and it is soaking it all up with no issues. It took me 3 weeks to color up a browned out Strawberry Short cake and currently baking at 400ish par. This was a challenge frag from the LFS to test my tank.

FYI - Prior to the reboot, I was full spectrum and grew out a tank from frags. With this reboot, I'm going with team BLUE with no full spectrum period. I was skeptical too after the reboot regarding how long it would take to stabilize the tank. But after coloring up the brownie, I loaded up on 15 frags last week. All coloring up with good PE. Stability is the key with SPS. Lighting can be adjusted for growth / coloration.

 

[slingfox]

I rebooted my tank tank last month with bleached Marco rocks and came off a minor dino battle also where P04 crashed to 0 and SPS suffered. From my experience, PO4 from 0.05 - .10 is the sweet spot with NO3 at 2.5-5 ppm. PO4 will play a part in darkening a coral when it is higher ie > .10 however you can balance that out with running high par > 300. More importantly, pick a number and keep it within that range where it is STABLE. Most of the high end coral growers mentioned earlier, also run higher PAR with the higher nutrient levels.

For coloration, I would blast them with BLUE. As a test, I'm currently running just BLUE leds with 400 - 500 par at the top of my rock work and the coloration for SPS has been amazing. I have a coral sitting at 600 PAR and it is soaking it all up with no issues. It took me 3 weeks to color up a browned out Strawberry Short cake and currently baking at 400ish par. This was a challenge frag from the LFS to test my tank.

FYI - Prior to the reboot, I was full spectrum and grew out a tank from frags. With this reboot, I'm going with team BLUE with no full spectrum period. I was skeptical too after the reboot regarding how long it would take to stabilize the tank. But after coloring up the brownie, I loaded up on 15 frags last week. All coloring up with good PE. Stability is the key with SPS. Lighting can be adjusted for growth / coloration.

I have been experimenting with full spectrum (ie, all whites and blues) for half the day and blues only half the day. This seems to be a very popular methodology amongst the hardcore SPS folks since do have seen it described in multiple interviews the last few years. Latest example I ran across is this video from WWC which showcases one of the most stunning SPS-dominant tanks to be featured recently:

 

[JWsticks]

I have been experimenting with full spectrum (ie, all whites and blues) for half the day and blues only half the day. This seems to be a very popular methodology amongst the hardcore SPS folks since do have seen it described in multiple interviews the last few years. Latest example I ran across is this video from WWC which showcases one of the most stunning SPS-dominant tanks to be featured recently:

I also wanted to try blue only because it would grow less algae. FALSE. I have Bryopsis and still grows with no issues which I think does correlate to SPS growth. I'm willing to give up some SPS growth for coloration. The Radion blues and Meridians have minimal full spectrum leds in them. More for show than growth imo. My stylo on the tank bottom is prolly getting 200 par it has grown from a frag to 5 branches in 2 months time.

 

[mcarroll]

I also wanted to try blue only because it would grow less algae. FALSE. I have Bryopsis and still grows with no issues which I think does correlate to SPS growth. I'm willing to give up some SPS growth for coloration. The Radion blues and Meridians have minimal full spectrum leds in them. More for show than growth imo. My stylo on the tank bottom is prolly getting 200 par it has grown from a frag to 5 branches in 2 months time.

Interesting that Stylo is one of the highest light "SPS" corals that's really popular and fairly beginner friendly too:
https://reefs.com/magazine/how-much...allow-water-invertebrates-light-requirements/

 

[JWsticks]

Interesting that Stylo is one of the highest light "SPS" corals that's really popular and fairly beginner friendly too:
https://reefs.com/magazine/how-much...allow-water-invertebrates-light-requirements/

I'm only growing monti's and stylos for the LFS. They grow like weeds in my tank and invasive like algae. Try removing a huge Stylo colony from a rock. Not gonna happen and probably hardest coral I've ever encountered when infused on a rock. Will have these on a mini-island when I'm not so lazy. The stylo was my canary during the reboot. I knew if that died, my tank was not ready for SPS. Previously, I grew out a huge colonly in 300-400 par full spectrum. Montis and Stylos will grow fine with 200-300 par. I think PH is also a factor in my tank as I matain PH > 8.2 with a refugium and top out at 8.5 end of the photoperiod.