It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Paul B]

People will tell me its all antidotal, good luck or witchcraft. Really? Maybe just maybe there is something we do that keeps pour animals so healthy.

We will always get that because many people just don't know that their fish can become immune so they attribute it to luck. We could keep our fish immune for fifty years (which I am almost there) and many people will still not believe it even though it is much simpler than quaranting.

 

[atoll]

We will always get that because many people just don't know that their fish can become immune so they attribute it to luck. We could keep our fish immune for fifty years (which I am almost there) and many people will still not believe it even though it is much simpler than quaranting.

Simpler, safer, cheaper and natural but some people will never believe us unless somebody with an ology discovers what we have been experiencing during all this time.

 

[Paul B]

We have no Ology's after our name but we may have the oldest set ups on here which of course doesn't count for anything even though we never post on a disease forum.

 

[Gweeds1980]

The ich came back...

Oh no, this has all been a complete disaster. It turns out fish can't be immune... I expect all my fish will now suffer the same fate...

 

[Gweeds1980]

Or... that was yesterday and this is today... ich gone, no other fish showing any symptoms... bacterial infection cleared up and fins repairing nicely.

Which acanthurus tang next... hmmmm...

On the downside, my copperband decided he quite liked the look of the floor the other day... maybe he was trying to get away from the ich chasing him?

 

[cono]

Or... that was yesterday and this is today... ich gone, no other fish showing any symptoms... bacterial infection cleared up and fins repairing nicely.

Which acanthurus tang next... hmmmm...

On the downside, my copperband decided he quite liked the look of the floor the other day... maybe he was trying to get away from the ich chasing him?

Lol

 

[jsker]

Or... that was yesterday and this is today... ich gone, no other fish showing any symptoms... bacterial infection cleared up and fins repairing nicely.

Which acanthurus tang next... hmmmm...

On the downside, my copperband decided he quite liked the look of the floor the other day... maybe he was trying to get away from the ich chasing him?

Carpet surfing can be dangerous for fish

 

[Gweeds1980]

Carpet surfing can be dangerous for fish

I know right? Such a shame as wrasse in particular seem to enjoy it...

 

[jsker]

I know right? Such a shame as wrasse in particular seem to enjoy it...

I had my Matted Filefish do the same. I was bummed. Replaced him 3 days later...

 

[Gweeds1980]

I had my Matted Filefish do the same. I was bummed. Replaced him 3 days later...

Yeah, horrible when you find them...

Not sure I'll replace the copperband... the tang population is too many now to introduce one I fear. They might just tear the newbie a new one...

I will miss the white, orange and black tho... maybe an Achilles tang is on the horizon?!

 

[MnFish1]

Im sorry I am saying this because I really want to be in your court - I researched it - and - what you say is anecdote. It sounds great - no QT, just make your fish immune. Its anecdote. Feed them xxxxxxx - its anecdote. Toss in fins from a lion fish - and they're immune to another pathogen. Its anecdote. Im happy - seriously - that its working for you - but its not going to work for the majority. This is not a scientific study - there is no control - there is no documentation even of what infection is present.

Look at the scientific research on CI - it is a major major problem for fish farming, as well as aquarists. If it was as easy as changing feeding - thats what would be done - there wouldn't be $$$ spent on research for a vaccine, etc. Because your heniocus survived a velvet attack doesn't negate thousands of people's experience. For velvet or CI.

I know - its considered improper to tell people that they are just 'wrong' here - (ie the go to reef central to make these comments) but - IMHO for the general marine aquarist you are wrong.

I know Paul B has an aquarium for xxx years - and its successful. Great - its also anecdote. If it was so simple - there are million dollar industries that would just feed their fish differently and all would be good. Its not that simple. Even he says he knows he cant keep certain kinds of coral in his tank...

Lastly - you have a misimpression - most wild fish do not have immunity to CI or velvet. Most of the fish that get those diseases die. Google the research if you want to - It is not a matter of just feeding and exposing.

I once asked someone - what is the deal with tanks that have nitrates of xx and pO4 of xxx but they are successful - the answer - the animals that survived tolerate the conditions - the ones that die are forgotten - and what's left is a fantastic tank - with a very special group of inhabitants.

Go ahead slam me lol - but - your tank is not representative of average or above average when it comes to this parasite. And research from people with advanced degrees in this subject seem to agree....

 

[jsker]

Yeah, horrible when you find them...

Not sure I'll replace the copperband... the tang population is too many now to introduce one I fear. They might just tear the newbie a new one...

I will miss the white, orange and black tho... maybe an Achilles tang is on the horizon?!

I have my eye on a niger trigger. totally reef safe. I was going to post a missing 8 line wrasse poster until he show up at feeding time today.

 

[Paul B]

MnFish1
Good morning. I agree with some of what you say. Fish farms have a lot of problems with diseases and there is a good reason for that. They can't financially take care of those fish as I have advised. Fish farms feed dry pellets as they are cheap. What is the first thing I say about dry foods? They can't be used if you want to keep fish immune. Fish farms can't afford to feed fish living foods, they would go out of business. Fish in farms are very overcrowded and stressed with no hiding places.
Scientists' are in the business of artificially trying to keep fish healthy and grow fast so we can eat them. They are not trying to help them live forever so they can spawn. It's like cattle, they give them hormones to make them fat very fast. Does that make the cattle healthy? I doubt it.
Scientists also don't have fish tanks of their own. They work in a lab under artificial conditions using basically bare tanks. Totally in natural.

It is also very true I can't keep delicate corals. For years my nitrates were under 10. Now they are 160. Of course I can't keep delicate corals, but I did for many years and I am over it. I can easily lower my nitrates and keep anything, I don't want to as I am in a phase of keeping all my fish healthy and spawning right now. My tank is not a show piece and was never meant to be. It can be if I wanted. That is simple. It is a hobby and I add all sorts of things that normal people would not. My tank is an experiment and always was.

It is certainly not about just throwing worms in a tank as that alone won't do anything but annoy the worms.
I disagree that fish in the sea die from velvet and If scientists say that, I would say they are wrong and I will tell them that if I see them on the subway.

 

[Cabinetman]

We will always get that because many people just don't know that their fish can become immune so they attribute it to luck. We could keep our fish immune for fifty years (which I am almost there) and many people will still not believe it even though it is much simpler than quaranting.

I wish you were closer to me Paul I’d put your theory to the test. I’ve got an Achilles and powder brown I’d love to see you keep ick free without treating. They become ick factories and then all my fish that usually stay clean secumb to the ick because of the numbers hatching from them. It soon spirals outa control. I’m guessing you don’t have that kinda fish or do you ? And hippos don’t count. They are tough as nails in my experience with ick.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Im sorry I am saying this because I really want to be in your court - I researched it - and - what you say is anecdote. It sounds great - no QT, just make your fish immune. Its anecdote. Feed them xxxxxxx - its anecdote. Toss in fins from a lion fish - and they're immune to another pathogen. Its anecdote. Im happy - seriously - that its working for you - but its not going to work for the majority. This is not a scientific study - there is no control - there is no documentation even of what infection is present.

Look at the scientific research on CI - it is a major major problem for fish farming, as well as aquarists. If it was as easy as changing feeding - thats what would be done - there wouldn't be $$$ spent on research for a vaccine, etc. Because your heniocus survived a velvet attack doesn't negate thousands of people's experience. For velvet or CI.

I know - its considered improper to tell people that they are just 'wrong' here - (ie the go to reef central to make these comments) but - IMHO for the general marine aquarist you are wrong.

I know Paul B has an aquarium for xxx years - and its successful. Great - its also anecdote. If it was so simple - there are million dollar industries that would just feed their fish differently and all would be good. Its not that simple. Even he says he knows he cant keep certain kinds of coral in his tank...

Lastly - you have a misimpression - most wild fish do not have immunity to CI or velvet. Most of the fish that get those diseases die. Google the research if you want to - It is not a matter of just feeding and exposing.

I once asked someone - what is the deal with tanks that have nitrates of xx and pO4 of xxx but they are successful - the answer - the animals that survived tolerate the conditions - the ones that die are forgotten - and what's left is a fantastic tank - with a very special group of inhabitants.

Go ahead slam me lol - but - your tank is not representative of average or above average when it comes to this parasite. And research from people with advanced degrees in this subject seem to agree....

No slamming! And thank you for your post... this debate is vital as I see it.

For reference I have an advanced degree in biology... not marine biology granted and my PhD wasn't earned with a thesis on fish immunity, ich or anything related for that matter... it was biofilm formation and drug resistance. But hardly unrelated either. I have not and do not claim this to be a scientific study. This is my hobby (or one of them), why on earth would I want to work when I could be playing?

However, in my studies, the thing that absolutely stood out was that regardless of what we do, life perseveres. You can nuke an established biofilm with any antibacterial or antibiotic you want, it will evolve and in its own way, become 'immune' to the 'attacker'.

All I did was take some of that understanding and attempt to apply it in a slap dash manner to my reef... unlike Paul I do like to keep delicate corals and inverts (I have a red feather star who is doing rather well, thank you). I have a growing collection of montipora with ridiculous made up names...

One thing I can be sure of... wild fish DO have immunity to the pathogens in their environment... whether ich, or velvet, or brooklynella, or herpes or TB is present in their wild environment is out for debate of course.

Wild fish farms will never, ever be able to feed the kind of foods I do. It is totally unsustainable, financially. It is cheaper for them to spend millions on developing a vaccine which once made will cost pence per shot and will work for the next 100 years. Hence why they do just that... one point to note... it is a vaccine they are trying to develop. What does a vaccine do? Generates an immune response... what is the key way this vaccine is being looked for? By studying fish that have a natural resistance to certain diseases... studying the macrophage response, studying what it is within the fish that enables that response... and you know what, so far Docosahexaenoic acid is the best they've got... where is that found? Omega 3 rich fish... how does it get into those fish which can't synthesize it? Via diet...

Don't believe me? Take a look at this article... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2238809/

DHA was the best long chain fatty acid tested at killing the malaria parasite... what can we use in 'proper' treatment of fish suffering from ich or Velvet? Chloroquine phosphate (CP)... what is CP better known as? An antimalarial... is it that much of a leap to believe that DHA might just also be able to kill ich? Could it just be possible that the very reason Charles Darwin bestowed our finned friends with DHA is to enable them to fight off parasitic infections ?

This is just one of several studies which have been carried out. The problem is that no-one bothers to read them or try to use that knowledge in a marine aquarium setting.

I am no genius and neither is Paul, nor you, nor anyone on this fine forum. But we differ in that some of us do not accept that man has created a better way of treating fish diseases in 50 years than nature has over the past billion or so years.

Worth noting... CP use as an antimalarial is beginning to fail, the parasite is becoming immune. Guess what marine derived compound serious research is looking at as the future of antimalarial drugs?

 

[Gweeds1980]

I wish you were closer to me Paul I’d put your theory to the test. I’ve got an Achilles and powder brown I’d love to see you keep ick free without treating. They become ick factories and then all my fish that usually stay clean secumb to the ick because of the numbers hatching from them. It soon spirals outa control. I’m guessing you don’t have that kinda fish or do you ? And hippos don’t count. They are tough as nails in my experience with ick.

As fun as all this bashing of @PaulB is... I was the OP... here's my powder blue... one of 7 tangs... 3 of which are acanthurus. One is a new addition - my Mata tang. I bought him with ich spots... a week later and after 2 cycles of ich... Guess what? He's ich free... and no other fish has symptoms and they won't either.

I am saving up for an Achilles next...

If you want to know WHY tangs tend to suffer more with ich than other fish, then that is a conversation worth having...

 

[Cabinetman]

I have a powder blue that is fairly resistant too. If there’s not an Achilles in the tank to fuel the outbreak. I honestly think Achilles are the worst fish for ick

 

[Paul B]

I wish you were closer to me Paul I’d put your theory to the test. I’ve got an Achilles and powder brown I’d love to see you keep ick free without treating. They become ick factories and then all my fish that usually stay clean secumb to the ick because of the numbers hatching from them. It soon spirals outa control. I’m guessing you don’t have that kinda fish or do you ? And hippos don’t count. They are tough as nails in my experience with ick.

Good Morning Cabinetman. I get that tang thing all the time. The truth is that I do not like tangs or angelfish as I have had dozens of them for many years. I find them boreing. I do have a copperband and have always had them. I have also had quite a few Naso , lipstick, sail fin, yellow and probably every type of tang there is. I would rather keep clingfish, pipefish, dragonettes, moorish Idols and other odd fish as they are harder to keep and, to me, more interesting. My favorite tank is a Hippo. I know they don't count but I have always had themand I think this is the first time my tank doesn't have one. They live to long and get a little larger than I would like.
Here is a page from my Log Book. Look at the date and the fish I was keeping. A few ich magnets in there.



In the beginning I kept moray eels, angelfish, triggers, porcupine puffers, lionfish etc as those were the fish available in the 70s. I have had many tangs and I am sure I lost some to parasites but that was before I learned the secret. By the way I learned most of what I know about fish by SCUBA diving with them and not from a computer which is a new invention. I spent about 250 hours underwater observing them and not like a tourist on a dive with 20 other people. I mean real diving where a guide takes you to a place to find a particular fish you want to learn about and you lay on the bottom until you run out of air or realize you left your cellphone in your Speedo.

If you want to know WHY tangs tend to suffer more with ich than other fish, then that is a conversation worth having...

I have a theory on this

 

[Cabinetman]

I have a moorish idol In my tank and even during a good outbreak it stays clean. I’ve had tanks full of big tangs and all I fed them was nls pellets and I could drop an ick covered hippo in and in 2 weeks it was clean and remained that way. Here’s the tank fish are perfect

I do think fish can become immune..certain ones.. not all. But I’m intrigued by the fatty acid thing. What’s something high in this I can try feeding my Achilles ?

 

[cono]

I have a moorish idol In my tank and even during a good outbreak it stays clean. I’ve had tanks full of big tangs and all I fed them was nls pellets and I could drop an ick covered hippo in and in 2 weeks it was clean and remained that way. Here’s the tank fish are perfect

I do think fish can become immune..certain ones.. not all. But I’m intrigued by the fatty acid thing. What’s something high in this I can try feeding my Achilles ?

Love all the tangs what size tank is that?