It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Gareth elliott]

Culturing isnt too hard as long as start with the right soil and dont let the temps get high 60-70f. For soil i use abg mix from josh’s. Springtails are another easy culture no idea how you would feed to an aquarium though lol.
Vinegar eels ,type of nematode, are the easiest imo.
Unpasteurized apple cider vinegar and something for them to crawl onto and culture is kinda done. Not as nutritious but a very easy small live food, and more nutrients than brine shrimp.

 

[MnFish1]

Culturing isnt too hard as long as start with the right soil and dont let the temps get high 60-70f. For soil i use abg mix from josh’s. Springtails are another easy culture no idea how you would feed to an aquarium though lol.
Vinegar eels ,type of nematode, are the easiest imo.
Unpasteurized apple cider vinegar and something for them to crawl onto and culture is kinda done. Not as nutritious but a very easy small live food, and more nutrients than brine shrimp.

Curious - just because something is 'live' how do you ensure that you are giving your fish, etc a 'balanced' diet'? Black worms are mostly water.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I personally keep to prepared frozen food mostly. But with a few added ingredients. Like reef chili, spurlina, a few thousands of gram of phytoplankton per cube.
The prepared foods are a mixture of Hikari: coral gumbo, mysis, and rotifers. I also only have small fish.
1 cube reconstituted equals approximately mass of 1/9 4oz cube. Makes it easier to feed more often without algae being an issue.

 

[atoll]

Here is how I culture pods in summer and very easy to do.

 

[atoll]

My brine shrimp culturing station. JBL twin hatchers.

 

[Gareth elliott]

They still sell that?
I have one i made but its kinda ghetto looking and refuse to let anyone see it lol.

 

[atoll]

They still sell that?
I have one i made but its kinda ghetto looking and refuse to let anyone see it lol.

No idea I have had them a while now remember am a fully paid up member of Paul's geezer clublol

 

[Paul B]

Curious - just because something is 'live' how do you ensure that you are giving your fish, etc a 'balanced' diet'? Black worms are mostly water.

I don't think they are a balanced diet which is why I don't just feed that. I feed them because I want the live bacteria in their guts.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't think they are a balanced diet which is why I don't just feed that. I feed them because I want the live bacteria in their guts.

Thanks - I guess I meant - how are you determining (or perhaps not just you but everyone) - what the best mix of protein, vitamins, fats and carbohydrates are for your fish. As the article I posted suggested - mixing a variety of stuff together doesn't make it nutritious or 'good' for the fish. Paul B specifically - what 'bacteria' are you trying to introduce.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

What I try to do is give my fishes a diet that’s close to what they will get if they where still in the ocean that is why I don’t feed dry food.

 

[Mark Gray]

Wow Paul B you must ether ware wooden socks or you work on them a lot LOL

 

[Paul B]

I am trying to introduce any kind of living bacteria, hopefully some bad types to keep my fish immune.

 

[MnFish1]

I am trying to introduce any kind of living bacteria, hopefully some bad types to keep my fish immune.

I don't think immunity works that way. Does it?

 

[Gareth elliott]

Immunity and resistance is a complex subject, i think what paul is trying to achieve is keeping his fish with as many antibodies present as possible. So if i understand correctly its like farmers catching cow pox and immune to small pox.
Side note
I wonder if there are behavioral differences between fish that survive external parasites and those that dont. Only point of reference on this is bees, yeah not fish in anyway lol.
But over the last 20 years mites have been a leading cause of hive collapse. The bees that are resistant actually have different behaviors, more cleaning, less drone cells etc. than those that are not. So instead of a physical resistance its a psychological response dictated by genomics. I wonder if some fish have similar responses, ie more frequently visiting cleaning stations or other behaviors.

 

[Lasse]

I don't think immunity works that way. Does it?

During the last couple of years rather much evidences has been shown that the bacterial content of the gastrointestinal tract has a huge importance for the wellbeing of humans including the immune system - so its not impossible.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

Just like with people, fish have both an innate and an adaptive immune system. Unfortunately for fish, the adaptive immune system is only highly effective for around 6 months. If a fish that was immune to Ich isn't subjected to Ich for a year it will respond just like a naïve fish would. The method to the madness of trying to constantly add new parasites/pathogens is to both broaden the exposure and to ensure any strains that may have died out are re-introduced.

As an interesting aside, it has been shown that reproductive rates have a strong impact on immunity. Animals that lay thousands of eggs tend to have a shorter "immune memory" than animals with much smaller reproductive rates.

 

[Paul B]

I don't think immunity works that way. Does it?

Yes it does. I have posted and linked numerous studies on this.

Unfortunately for fish, the adaptive immune system is only highly effective for around 6 months. If a fish that was immune to Ich isn't subjected to Ich for a year it will respond just like a naïve fish would. The method to the madness of trying to constantly add new parasites/pathogens is to both broaden the exposure and to ensure any strains that may have died out are re-introduced.
.

I don't think the parasites in my tank die out. I think they are alive and healthy (like in the sea) and they keep trying to attach to my fish (just like in the sea) and this forces the fishes immune system to keep doing what it was designed to do. That is make antibodies to parasites.

The bacteria in their food forces the fish to make antibodies to bacterial infections (just like in the sea) If you never feed your fish live bacteria, they will never be immune which is the reason for all the disease threads. Just go on the disease thread and look anywhere to see all the infected fish. There is one now about a copperband butterfly. My fish don't get any of that because they are immune because of the way I feed.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Yes it does. I have posted and linked numerous studies on this.



I don't think the parasites in my tank die out. I think they are alive and healthy (like in the sea) and they keep trying to attach to my fish (just like in the sea) and this forces the fishes immune system to keep doing what it was designed to do. That is make antibodies to parasites.

The bacteria in their food forces the fish to make antibodies to bacterial infections (just like in the sea) If you never feed your fish live bacteria, they will never be immune which is the reason for all the disease threads. Just go on the disease thread and look anywhere to see all the infected fish. There is one now about a copperband butterfly. My fish don't get any of that because they are immune because of the way I feed.

Though not sure how much of that is because of the feed, ime the same disease threads pop up in tanks that experience wide shifts in parameters. Algae outbreak -> large pwc -> salinity, alk, temp swing, etc. -> fish get sick. Freshwater its posters trying to chase a ph chemically. Or receive an order of wild caught fish that spent the last 2 weeks in stressful conditions add to DT they get sick they treat the whole tank stresses the original inhabitants, they also get sick. This isn’t every case but a lot of new tank setups follow a progression like that. Regardless how we treat disease or dont treat disease fish should be given the least stressful environment given the small areas we keep them.

And this should include food stuffs that help to that end. Ie My pond gets the natural insect larvae, plus additions of fresh vegetables zucchini and peas to their pellet diet, during the summer my planted tank gets a few feedings of mosquito larvae, easiest live food for freshwater, just need a bucket lol. Winter skuds are added from at night to moss tree once a month. My reef, pods added to sump few times a year to keep population from going inborn. If anything i think regular live food prevent illness through prevention of stress or the vigor of catching them. No science behind these claims just the anecdotes of watching my fish lol. Pond turned 15, reef only 3 this year. Without ever quarantining Only pest i fear a loss on my pond is herons, herons are the devil.

 

[Paul B]

A pond is different being outside, it gets natural leaves, grass and insects so there is plenty of diverse bacteria already there. But not in an indoor tank where most people (not me) use commercially prepared food.

 

[Gareth elliott]

A pond is different being outside, it gets natural leaves, grass and insects so there is plenty of diverse bacteria already there. But not in an indoor tank where most people (not me) use commercially prepared food.

Just using as an example for why i feel live foods might also benefit the fish we keep; in addition to the reasons you have posted. Less stressed and active food searching fish may also reduce disease occurrence.