It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Gweeds1980]

Hence why I have been adding fish oil with omega 3 for quite some years. I buy capsules from ASDA UK (Wallmart to you) and add the contents of a few capsules to my home made foods and others I can't make. I make enough foods up for 3 days and keep in the fridge feeding my fish and corals 3 or 4 times per day.

I'm all about the ASDA. UK too

 

[Gweeds1980]

My concern would be with aggression issues with new fish. So you take a fish that has traveled halfway around the world in a plastic baggy, been thrown in who knows how many tanks with different parameters. Been stressed to hell and high water, then just throw him in your tank. He is all ready immune compromised and scared out of his mind, and now he has to deal with territorial issues and pathogens in a glass box. Seems he wouldn't stand a chance without some sort of relaxation period (observation tank). I cant remember what is all stocked in your tank but I know you have damsels which are very territorial and can be aggressive. When I put my copperband in my DT, My Powder Brown and yellow tang chased him relentlessly for about a week. That was even with feeding 4 times a day to try and mellow them out, and with putting the copperband in an acclimation box in the DT for a week. I don't think the copperband would have survived if I didn't put him in the observation tank for over a month in the beginning, to get him eating well (all live food) and get his strength up. Now all three of them hang out together and are the best of buds.

Cool cool... I will be QTing... take a look at my protocols earlier in the thread. Won't be doing the copper bit tho on advice.

 

[Gweeds1980]

For reference, fish stock is as follows:

Maroon clown breeding pair
3 x humbug damsels (breeding now)
Copperband
Heniochus
Coral beauty
Orange shoulder tang
Yellow tang
Regal tang
Coral hawkfish
Caribbean blue bass
Yellow coris wrasse
Green wrasse

I'm sure there's a couple more but I forget and aren't at home at present.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Tink about going down te ATS route rather than pellets then. I have been doing things my way but similar in many respects to Paul but for only about 30 years pf my 36 in reefkeeping. I have tried pellets etc and find an ATS is a far better option when it comes to reducing nutrients and other things like heavy metals etc.

Cool, I run a refuge too, just didnt want to rely on one nutrient export method, so ATS would fit the bill too.

Cheers.

 

[atoll]

I'm all about the ASDA. UK too

Speak English to me none of this American slang stuff am 67 not 16 ;Happy

 

[ecam]

6. NSW used in place of ASW for all WCs

How can this be accomplished for those that dont have access to nsw? It seems that could be a key difference between establishing immunity. Thoughts?

 

[atoll]

6. NSW used in place of ASW for all WCs

How can this be accomplished for those that dont have access to nsw? It seems that could be a key difference between establishing immunity. Thoughts?

I don't have access to NSW

 

[Gweeds1980]

6. NSW used in place of ASW for all WCs

How can this be accomplished for those that dont have access to nsw? It seems that could be a key difference between establishing immunity. Thoughts?

I'm guessing it can't [emoji20]
I don't know if it's key to success... But it's natural so I say go for it.

Some LFS in the UK have started stocking it, not sure about the US.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Speak English to me none of this American slang stuff am 67 not 16 ;Happy

Sorry mate!

 

[atoll]

I'm guessing it can't [emoji20]
I don't know if it's key to success... But it's natural so I say go for it.

Some LFS in the UK have started stocking it, not sure about the US.

it can as I have only ever used synthetic salt. I do buy fresh and live foods from the fish market plus I do my own live brine shrimp nauplii which are full of bacteria

 

[Brew12]

6. NSW used in place of ASW for all WCs

How can this be accomplished for those that dont have access to nsw? It seems that could be a key difference between establishing immunity. Thoughts?

I don't think it is significant.

I have done a large amount of research on this and there are a few things needed to make an immune based system work.

1) Excellent nutrition to boost the innate and adaptive immune system
2) Either ozone, UV filter, or some other way to limit parasite numbers while the adaptive immune system adapts
3) Excellent water quality to reduce fish stress
4) Proper stocking so fish don't stress each other out through aggression
5) System stability since something like a heater failure can temporarily weaken a fish's immunity in a matter of hours
6) Constant exposure to parasites since a fish will lose its adaptive immunity if not exposed to the parasite for 6 months
7) A little luck on fish selection. Like people, some fish of the same species will have stronger immune systems than others. For fish like Clownfish, where they live in a small section of the reef for their entire lives, odds of finding one that will be able to develop a strong adaptive immunity to parasites is very high. For free swimming fish like Hippo Tangs, you can still find one that will thrive in an immunity based system but the odds are a bit lower. I haven't seen a study that can quantify how less likely it is, so no answers there.

For me (and most hobbyists) I am either unwilling or unable to carry out all of these steps. Instead, I choose to follow strict QT protocols. If I were going to run a very large system (180+gallon) I would also run tight QT protocols as I would want to stock multiple Tangs that could be aggressive to each other. If I start up a 65g-120g system that is wrasse dominant I might give the immune system a try.

 

[atoll]

Sorry mate!

Na tis OK brov init ;Blackeye

 

[Sleeperr34]

Following along with this.

My old 210 i used to have i never QT. Any of my fish. Was good flr about a year then half died. After that i started adding loads of vitamins to soak overnight in the food. I still never QT jist because i didnt habe room and the gf said no to another tank. After that before i had to step away from the tank for time reasons. I had a powder blue. And multiple tangs and angels and they all were fat and happy for 2 yrs.

 

[Gweeds1980]

it can as I have only ever used synthetic salt. I do buy fresh and live foods from the fish market plus I do my own live brine shrimp nauplii which are full of bacteria

Sorry, I meant 'it can't' as in it can't be done with NSW if you don't have access... not that it can't be done full stop.

I don't know if it's key or not... I assume not having read subsequent posts.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I don't run UV nor ozone but I have been using Oxdators for around 30 years now but it seems few in the US seem to know much about them

Is that the h2o2 with the little pill thing? Sorry, not very technical I know!! How does that work?

 

[Gweeds1980]

I don't think it is significant.

I have done a large amount of research on this and there are a few things needed to make an immune based system work.

1) Excellent nutrition to boost the innate and adaptive immune system
2) Either ozone, UV filter, or some other way to limit parasite numbers while the adaptive immune system adapts
3) Excellent water quality to reduce fish stress
4) Proper stocking so fish don't stress each other out through aggression
5) System stability since something like a heater failure can temporarily weaken a fish's immunity in a matter of hours
6) Constant exposure to parasites since a fish will lose its adaptive immunity if not exposed to the parasite for 6 months
7) A little luck on fish selection. Like people, some fish of the same species will have stronger immune systems than others. For fish like Clownfish, where they live in a small section of the reef for their entire lives, odds of finding one that will be able to develop a strong adaptive immunity to parasites is very high. For free swimming fish like Hippo Tangs, you can still find one that will thrive in an immunity based system but the odds are a bit lower. I haven't seen a study that can quantify how less likely it is, so no answers there.

For me (and most hobbyists) I am either unwilling or unable to carry out all of these steps. Instead, I choose to follow strict QT protocols. If I were going to run a very large system (180+gallon) I would also run tight QT protocols as I would want to stock multiple Tangs that could be aggressive to each other. If I start up a 65g-120g system that is wrasse dominant I might give the immune system a try.

This is beginning to feel like watching the Sixth Sense with someone who's already seen the ending [emoji6]

 

[atoll]

Is that the h2o2 with the little pill thing? Sorry, not very technical I know!! How does that work?

Yes I guess so, look here.
http://www.aquariumoxygenator.com/

 

[Paul B]

I have not added NSW in about a year. But I will collect some this summer.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I have not added NSW in about a year. But I will collect some this summer.

I collect mine from the pristine Norfolk coastline... the North Sea... it's amazing just how cold it is, even at this time of year!!

I do about 10% per fortnight. That's about 32 gallons each time... works out great as I have 5 75 litre Jerry cans which fit quite neatly in the back of my car.

So I make the hour long round trip twice monthly and get free water and the dog gets to act like an idiot for an hour or so on the beach... happy days.

Trick is to collect at the highest tide possible... makes it easier to collect. I use a bilge pump and hang it off the end of a few piers in the area.

 

[atoll]

I collect mine from the pristine Norfolk coastline... the North Sea... it's amazing just how cold it is, even at this time of year!!

I do about 10% per fortnight. That's about 32 gallons each time... works out great as I have 5 75 litre Jerry cans which fit quite neatly in the back of my car.

So I make the hour long round trip twice monthly and get free water and the dog gets to act like an idiot for an hour or so on the beach... happy days.

Trick is to collect at the highest tide possible... makes it easier to collect. I use a bilge pump and hang it off the end of a few piers in the area.

The only water around here is the local canal and the drinking water reservoirs. I could go to Southport but the tide never comes in plus there are quicksands and I wouldn't trust the water quality that's for sure.