It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Paul B]

If you take 10 tank raised non-immune clownfish and put them into your (supposedly velvet and CI filled tank - which I highly doubt) - why would you suggest the survival rate would be better than taking those same fish and putting them into a non-velvet/CI containing tank.

I did not suggest that. Those fish would probably die as their immunity is gone from quarantine.

My guess is that the parasite levels in the supposed 'Immune tanks' are negligent or non-existent - therefore the disease doesn't spread - its the only hypothesis that makes any common sense. There is lots of data out there on the mortality of CI on non-immune fish. for anyone to claim that they can just drop fish into a tank with CI and or velvet and they have (as some have claimed here) 100 % success -

You keep saying to just drop a fish into a tank infected with parasites. No one is saying that. The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune. Fish that were quarantined will not be in great health and will probably die.

I am not sure why you feel that in 47 years there would be no ich or velvet in my tank. I add fish from various stores when my fish die of old age and I many times posted when I did that. I recently added parasite infected shrimpfish and one died so I left it in there. It is posted. I also added a parasite infected copperband where all the others in it's tank died in the store. I gave it away after it was cured and healthy.

If you feel ozone, Which I have not used in a month

I love this thread. For some reason there are people who feel the need to discredit it. Why don't they start their own thread with their own methods if they work so well.

All scientific discovery was/is based on hypothesis that was formed by observation. If Paul, Gweeds, Attol have tanks and methods that work for them and have been working for some time, who are you to come along and tell them that they are wrong??

I personally don't practice their methods, but I am intrigued. I get frustrated when the "usual suspects" come along and write long posts thinking that they are making an important point.

Exactly. It is because they can't or won't reproduce it so It can't work. We, including me have been taught about quarantine for decades. But obviousely it doesn't work. If it did, there would be no disease thread which me, Atoll and Gweeds never have to post on.

AS I have said, I have been responding to these threads for many years, way longer than anyone has been on here and it is always the same. It's Ozone, diatom filter, luck or my fish are not the type of fish that get infected. I have posted quite a few scientific papers on my Immunity thread about how the pathogens a fish injests totally controls it's immunity but many people either fail to read that or don't understand or believe it. I am sure if I live long enough my fish will continue to be immune while disease threads continue to proliferate on this and other forums. Soon this will be accepted and all fish will remain disease free. It is the next step in this hobby.
Quarantine has been the standard since 1971 when the salt hobby started in the US. It is time we went forward and keep fish like they are supposed to live, like the sea. It is much easier than quarantine and just depends on mainly food. Not only commercially available food, but real, natural bacteria infected food. There are currently no available commercially available foods with the correct bacteria. LRS food to me is the best, but even that will not have the "bad" pathogens that will keep fish immune from "bad" pathogens. If a fish is not exposed to them, just like if we live in a bubble, they will always have to be kept in a sterile environment just as we would have to be. It is not healthy or natural.

I’ll say it again, “figures will not lie,” but “liars will figure”. It is our duty, as fellow aquarists, to prevent the liar from figuring; in other words, to prevent him from perverting the truth, in the interest of some theory he wishes to establish.

What exactly is this complete theory or recipe for success? I have yet to see it summarized in one post.
- Filtration method... Paul’s ozone or atoll’s oxidator? Are these required for long term success? If not, how do you know they don’t play a role?
- Feeding regimen... Live foods? Many do that already.
- Fish acclimation method... Dump right in display tank with no Qt/observation/treatment period? Many do that already.
- live bacteria? Many people add live bacteria already.

What are the remaining components behind this theory? What makes it unique other than the filtration?

or a diatom filter is the key, then why doesn't everyone do that?

OMg I have posted this dozens of times and wrote a book. I don't know what else to do as it is silly to keep posting it.

I will try to do it again if I get time

 

[MnFish1]

Do yoi think my Oxydators alone prevent my fish getting sick?

Im not sure why you would say that based on my posts over the last couple of days - you already know the answer to that question is 'no'. Tongue in cheek - to use your words - I've repeated myself so many times here that its getting tiresome as well.

These are MY opinions. They are not a criticism of anyone's "method"

1. Main point: I think the main reason that people with so-called 'Immune tanks' succeed is an external method of parasite number reduction whether its UV/Ozone/Oxydators or ultrafiltration.
2. Feeding high quality food is important.
3. Choosing healthy livestock is important.
4. Good water quality and stable parameters are important.
5. 2, 3, and 4 are important because it causes less stress to the fish and high stress decreases immunity
6. Its well known that fish become immune to CI. Once they are immune - even if that immunity decreases - they are less likely to have as severe a 'reinfection'.

I do not believe that there is any evidence that adding bacteria to the tank in the form of mud, etc decreases the likelihood of CI or velvet.
I do not believe that feeding 'live foods' decreases the likelihood of CI or velvet as compared to high quality dry, frozen or other foods.
I do not believe that treating with copper 'kills or destroys' the immune system.
I believe there are lots of people out there who have 'healthy successful tanks' after quarantining.
I do not know of a major zoo or aquarium that suggests that quarantining is not important, instead these institutions suggest that its 'mandatory'.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Also not all quarantine methods involve harsh chemicals. I recently added a lubbock’s fairy wrasse and a CB shrimp to my livestock.

They are going through ttm together. I am not positive the wrasse will not eat my tiny shrimp but was free, lfs mistakenly put in the bag.

 

[MnFish1]

Paul Firstly, you say "Quarantine causes Immunity to be gone" Define what YOU mean by 'quarantine' (3 days observation, 14 days copper, etc?). Define what you mean by 'Immunity'. In any case, immunity is not 'gone'. A tank raised clownfish has never been exposed to CI - it never had immunity to CI. Every fish has its own innate immune system (skin, mucus) which isn't affected by not being exposed to parasites. So - again - how would tank-raised clownfish (not exposed to CI or velvet) who have a perfectly normal immune system (they aren't living in a sterile world, there are lots of bacteria in every aquarium) do if placed in your tank?

Secondly, you say : The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune. Fish that were quarantined will not be in great health and will probably die. But every zoo and aquarium in the country uses quarantine methods so do many aquarists and their fish don't 'die'. You repeatedly state that you take fish that are sick - and put them in your tank (so does Atoll) yet they survive - this is contradictory.

Thirdly, you say: I am not sure why you feel that in 47 years there would be no ich or velvet in my tank. You're taking what I said out of context. I didn't say there couldn't be any parasites in your tank, I said that (In several posts) if the parasite numbers are reduced (by ozone, UV, etc) to the point of being non-infective it is possible for the numbers to decrease to the point that the strain dies off.

Fourth, you say: I recently added parasite infected shrimpfish and one died so I left it in there. It is posted. I also added a parasite infected copperband where all the others in it's tank died in the store. I gave it away after it was cured and healthy. Great - so one fish died, one fish lived lots of fish survive CI in every tank. Lots die. The mortality of fish (THAT HAVE NOT BEEN EXPOSED TO CI) is HIGH once they are infected the fact that your copper band survived and the ones in the store died doesn't suggest anything. BTW, adding 'parasite infected shrimp fish' contradicts what you said in the second line that 'fish need to be in perfect health and immune'.

Lastly, you say: It is because they can't or won't reproduce it so It can't work. We, including me have been taught about quarantine for decades. But obviousely it doesn't work. If it did, there would be no disease thread which me, Atoll and Gweeds never have to post on.

- The reason no one can reproduce it is because there is so much contradictory information as to 'what it is'. And the main proponents (at least in this thread) all use completely different methods. I don't recall anyone - including me - saying what you do 'cant' work. In fact I have stated the opposite - that you can't argue with success.
- The reason quarantine has been taught for decades is because done correctly - it does work.
- You can't say that every post in the disease thread is because of 'quarantining' - in fact - most of the posts I've read are people that haven't quarantined.
- The reason you gweeds and atoll dont post on the disease forum is that you just let the fish die in your tank - you dont attempt to treat them. Besides that you're all experienced enough not to need to post in the disease forum.

No one (at least I am not) arguing about 'your method', Im discussing your logic in describing the methodology you use - and as ive said before the reason for the discussion is not to argue with you - but to try to figure out 'why' it works - and take that information to benefit my tank. I dont have access to sea mud and many of the things that you do.

 

[najer]

Interjects again!
I have a 700 litre "system", it runs at 550 water volume, it has 2 refugiums, sump and display.
I do run a nyos 160 skimmer, I feed quite heavily for the corals mostly.
I don't do water changes and dose manually for the big 3 (2, not so sure about Mag).
I don't promote my "way" as a way to do things, my system is too grubby for a lot of sps.
I test kh about once a month.
There are a lot of ways to do things, take a breath people, I know it hasn't kicked off, asking for proof from people that have theories and are successful seems a tad harsh, we are not all marine biologists!

 

[MnFish1]

There are a lot of ways to do things, take a breath people, I know it hasn't kicked off, asking for proof from people that have theories and are successful seems a tad harsh, we are not all marine biologists!

I respect your post - and I keep my aquarium much the same way you do I don't recall anyone asking anyone for 'proof'. Asking people to explain the rationale for their 'theories' is not 'harsh' (IMHO). If someone posts a method (a method that appears to be a SUCCESS btw), that completely goes against the current standard, I guess I expect that those people would be happy to talk about the rationale for what they do. Especially when the people that are espousing 'the method' all use different variations of 'the method'. When the main proponent of 'the method' says 'Im not recommending that anyone use this method - but all fish that are quarantined die', to me it implies that his way is the only way. When another proponent of 'the method' says - I keep tangs, and regal angels, etc etc and never have a problem with my beautiful aquarium - I want to know WHY he is successful - not just that he is successful. As to those that deliberately add 'sick fish' or deliberately add 'CI or velvet' to their tanks I think thats unethical.

 

[najer]

Un following this for the second or third time, hate when it gets complicated, call me a quiter, whatever, happy reefing all, off back to my happy corner, ciao!

 

[Dogtown]

No one (at least I am not) arguing about 'your method', Im discussing your logic in describing the methodology you use - and as ive said before the reason for the discussion is not to argue with you - but to try to figure out 'why' it works - and take that information to benefit my tank. I dont have access to sea mud and many of the things that you do.

I have the same thought myself. It seems that there are many inconsistent comments being made and if the goal is to have an immune reef then please be clear and consistent as to what the entire theory is. It doesn't need to be lengthy.

 

[Dogtown]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-13#post-4000987Thanks Kmsutows for participating.

Atol/Paul B: Complete theory/recipe for an immune reef

- Filtration method... Paul’s Ozone generator or atoll’s Oxidator.

1. Atoll: "I do believe my Oxydators play a part." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-54#post-4907825
2. Paul B: "I have been using ozone 24/7 in my glass reef for about 35 or 40 years and I would not stop." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ozone-planning-and-questions.380127/#post-4640249

- Fish health...

1. Paul B: "The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907935

- Minimize stress to inhabitants...

1. Paul B: "keep it healthy and a stress free environment is very important" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-13#post-4000987

- Feeding regimen. Clams and other live foods of all types found in nature...

- Live bacteria. Lots of live bacteria...

- QT observation. None...

- Prophylactic medication prior to introduction. None...

- This is a holistic approach. You can't just do some of the above and expect good results.


Feedback from other R2R members:
Kmsutows: UV when used correctly can be efficient enough to reduce parasite numbers to be tolerable (hence why large fisheries and some stores/aquariums use them) as well as diatom filtering is prevent to reduce numbers of parasites.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4908242



This is becoming most helpful and will allow the casual newbie to stumble upon the thread and quickly see the entire theory/recipe in a single place.

Chris

 

[Kmsutows]

Added another key component as stated by Paul.

Complete theory/recipe for an immune reef:

- Filtration method... Paul’s Ozone generator or atoll’s Oxidator.

1. Atoll: "I do believe my Oxydators play a part." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-54#post-4907825
2. Paul B: "I have been using ozone 24/7 in my glass reef for about 35 or 40 years and I would not stop." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ozone-planning-and-questions.380127/#post-4640249

- Fish health...

1. Paul B: "The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907935

- Minimize stress to inhabitants...

- Feeding regimen. Clams and other live foods of all types found in nature...

- Live bacteria. Lots of live bacteria...

- QT observation. None...

- Prophylactic medication prior to introduction. None...

- This is a holistic approach. You can't just do some of the above and expect good results.

Anything else?

Chris

Since you asked anything else, UV when used correctly can be efficient enough to reduce parasite numbers to be tolerable (hence why large fisheries and some stores/aquariums use them) as well as diatom filtering is prevent to reduce numbers of parasites.

 

[atoll]

No debate with you on that one. You have credited your filtration method and that isn't really up what is up for debate. Its a matter of stating what the complete combination of items is that are required to achieve the desired outcome of an immune reef actually is. Why not provide a complete bullet list of what you did to achieve your immune reef long term? Please expand and refine the list as you see beneficial for others.

Complete theory or recipe for an immune reef:

- Filtration method... Paul’s Ozone generator or atoll’s Oxidator
- Minimize stress to inhabitants
- Feeding regimen. Clams and other live foods of all types found in nature.
- Live bacteria. Lots of live bacteria.
- QT observation. None.
- Prophylactic medication prior to introduction. None.
- This is a holistic approach. You can't just do some of the above and expect good results.


Gareth elliott, Good point on minimizing stress. We've all seen Atoll and Paul's posts to that point so that is added. thanks

IME add to the above the environment you created and comparable species.

 

[Gareth elliott]

So doesnt seem like i am always just debating both sides because of my love of a debate. Ill follow the sharing of tank setups.

Time span: Serious fish keeping for 15 years, i had tanks growing up as well. Piranha -> cichlids had a dwarf sea horse pair in 30 tall growing up we caught in a seining net. Only 3 years with a reef though so by far one of the least experienced on this thread.

Tank: 40 gallon breeder, 15 gallon sump.

Filtration: Biopellets, eshopps x-160 skimmer, filter socks minimum water changes.

Feeding: feed heavily a mixture of frozen foods(SF angel diet, Omega One, super carnivore, and diy mixture of finely diced squid and muscles mixed with reef chili and replenish my pods frequently.(changed to this upon listening to paul, atoll and others trying towards a healthier direction)

I do quarantine.

Dosing: ati essentials and 3 different bacteria supplements(for the biopellet reactor).

 

[atoll]

Im not sure why you would say that based on my posts over the last couple of days - you already know the answer to that question is 'no'. Tongue in cheek - to use your words - I've repeated myself so many times here that its getting tiresome as well.

These are MY opinions. They are not a criticism of anyone's "method"

1. Main point: I think the main reason that people with so-called 'Immune tanks' succeed is an external method of parasite number reduction whether its UV/Ozone/Oxydators or ultrafiltration.
2. Feeding high quality food is important.
3. Choosing healthy livestock is important.
4. Good water quality and stable parameters are important.
5. 2, 3, and 4 are important because it causes less stress to the fish and high stress decreases immunity
6. Its well known that fish become immune to CI. Once they are immune - even if that immunity decreases - they are less likely to have as severe a 'reinfection'.

I do not believe that there is any evidence that adding bacteria to the tank in the form of mud, etc decreases the likelihood of CI or velvet.
I do not believe that feeding 'live foods' decreases the likelihood of CI or velvet as compared to high quality dry, frozen or other foods.
I do not believe that treating with copper 'kills or destroys' the immune system.
I believe there are lots of people out there who have 'healthy successful tanks' after quarantining.
I do not know of a major zoo or aquarium that suggests that quarantining is not important, instead these institutions suggest that its 'mandatory'.

Fair enough believe what you will and continue to think zoos know best. As for these zoos etc many still loose fish after quarantining and they will practice what they have done for many years. How many have tried a different approach? I have bought fish like Royal grammas that have shown signs of CI like I have stated and added them to my aquarium only for the fish to have shrugged it off after 36hours those who question our methods like to ignore such inc Paul stating he has done similar. Maybe people think we are lying or we never really added fish with CI I don't know but the silence is often defending.

 

[Dogtown]

Added atol's feedback "atoll: "add to the above the environment you created and comparable ". I put that under the minimize stress category. OK by you?

Atol/Paul B: Complete theory/recipe for an immune reef

- Filtration method... Paul’s Ozone generator or atoll’s Oxidator.

1. Atoll: "I do believe my Oxydators play a part." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-54#post-4907825
2. Paul B: "I have been using ozone 24/7 in my glass reef for about 35 or 40 years and I would not stop." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ozone-planning-and-questions.380127/#post-4640249

- Fish health...

1. Paul B: "The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907935

- Minimize stress to inhabitants...

1. Paul B: "keep it healthy and a stress free environment is very important" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-13#post-4000987
2. atoll: "add to the above the environment you created and comparable species." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4908260

- Feeding regimen.

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Fresh or freshly frozen WHOLE seafood" and "Fresh or freshly frozen seaweed (from the sea, not the store)" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
2. Clams and other live foods of all types found in nature...

- Live bacteria..

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Bacterial biodiversity - as much as possible" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
2. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Parasites" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672

- QT observation. None...

- Prophylactic medication prior to introduction. None...

- This is a holistic approach. You can't just do some of the above and expect good results.


Feedback from other R2R members:
Kmsutows: UV when used correctly can be efficient enough to reduce parasite numbers to be tolerable (hence why large fisheries and some stores/aquariums use them) as well as diatom filtering is prevent to reduce numbers of parasites.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4908242

MnFish1: Main point: I think the main reason that people with so-called 'Immune tanks' succeed is an external method of parasite number reduction whether its UV/Ozone/Oxydators or ultrafiltration.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907952


This summary may help the casual newbie to stumble upon the thread and quickly see the entire theory/recipe in a single place. If any changes are requested, let me know.

 

[atoll]

Paul Firstly, you say "Quarantine causes Immunity to be gone" Define what YOU mean by 'quarantine' (3 days observation, 14 days copper, etc?). Define what you mean by 'Immunity'. In any case, immunity is not 'gone'. A tank raised clownfish has never been exposed to CI - it never had immunity to CI. Every fish has its own innate immune system (skin, mucus) which isn't affected by not being exposed to parasites. So - again - how would tank-raised clownfish (not exposed to CI or velvet) who have a perfectly normal immune system (they aren't living in a sterile world, there are lots of bacteria in every aquarium) do if placed in your tank?

Secondly, you say : The fish you drop in need to be in perfect health and immune. Fish that were quarantined will not be in great health and will probably die. But every zoo and aquarium in the country uses quarantine methods so do many aquarists and their fish don't 'die'. You repeatedly state that you take fish that are sick - and put them in your tank (so does Atoll) yet they survive - this is contradictory.

Thirdly, you say: I am not sure why you feel that in 47 years there would be no ich or velvet in my tank. You're taking what I said out of context. I didn't say there couldn't be any parasites in your tank, I said that (In several posts) if the parasite numbers are reduced (by ozone, UV, etc) to the point of being non-infective it is possible for the numbers to decrease to the point that the strain dies off.

Fourth, you say: I recently added parasite infected shrimpfish and one died so I left it in there. It is posted. I also added a parasite infected copperband where all the others in it's tank died in the store. I gave it away after it was cured and healthy. Great - so one fish died, one fish lived lots of fish survive CI in every tank. Lots die. The mortality of fish (THAT HAVE NOT BEEN EXPOSED TO CI) is HIGH once they are infected the fact that your copper band survived and the ones in the store died doesn't suggest anything. BTW, adding 'parasite infected shrimp fish' contradicts what you said in the second line that 'fish need to be in perfect health and immune'.

Lastly, you say: It is because they can't or won't reproduce it so It can't work. We, including me have been taught about quarantine for decades. But obviousely it doesn't work. If it did, there would be no disease thread which me, Atoll and Gweeds never have to post on.

- The reason no one can reproduce it is because there is so much contradictory information as to 'what it is'. And the main proponents (at least in this thread) all use completely different methods. I don't recall anyone - including me - saying what you do 'cant' work. In fact I have stated the opposite - that you can't argue with success.
- The reason quarantine has been taught for decades is because done correctly - it does work.
- You can't say that every post in the disease thread is because of 'quarantining' - in fact - most of the posts I've read are people that haven't quarantined.
- The reason you gweeds and atoll dont post on the disease forum is that you just let the fish die in your tank - you dont attempt to treat them. Besides that you're all experienced enough not to need to post in the disease forum.

No one (at least I am not) arguing about 'your method', Im discussing your logic in describing the methodology you use - and as ive said before the reason for the discussion is not to argue with you - but to try to figure out 'why' it works - and take that information to benefit my tank. I dont have access to sea mud and many of the things that you do.

If a fish dies in mine or Paul's tank it dies not long after introduction none of the other fish then catch whatever that fish died of. Many no the majority of fish that are introduced live long lives and recover if introduced with an infection. Obviously if a fish is too far gone (it can be difficult to dtermine the exact level of no return) then it may not be possible to bring it back and build up it's immune system to the level of it's tank mates. It's during the first few weeks of introducing a fish that I believe my use of Oxydators really helps them to settle in and build up that immunity eating my home made foods. I try to follow mother nature as reasonably as possible and you can't improve on mother nature after all she has had millions of years to perfect her ways. If people on here think they can improve or challange her methods then so be it but mother nature never quarantined any animal as far as I am aware.

 

[MnFish1]

If a fish dies in mine or Paul's tank it dies not long after introduction none of the other fish then catch whatever that fish died of. Many no the majority of fish that are introduced live long lives and recover if introduced with an infection. Obviously if a fish is too far gone (it can be difficult to dtermine the exact level of no return) then it may not be possible to bring it back and build up it's immune system to the level of it's tank mates. It's during the first few weeks of introducing a fish that I believe my use of Oxydators really helps them to settle in and build up that immunity eating my home made foods. I try to follow mother nature as reasonably as possible and you can't improve on mother nature after all she has had millions of years to perfect her ways. If people on here think they can improve or challange her methods then so be it but mother nature never quarantined any animal as far as I am aware.

The thing is I don't disagree with anything you do (except deliberately adding sick fish to a display tank). I believe that everything you say is true.

I take issue with the comment about 'Mother Nature and quarantine'. Mother Nature does not have dosing pumps, lights, protein skimmers and the concentration of fish in the ocean is much less than the concentration of fish in most reef tanks.

 

[MnFish1]

Fair enough believe what you will and continue to think zoos know best. As for these zoos etc many still loose fish after quarantining and they will practice what they have done for many years. How many have tried a different approach?

I would appreciate it - to avoid continued corrections - to not misquote/misrepresent what I posted. I never said 'zoos know best'. I was counteracting Pauls statement that 'most quarantined fish die'. I was using it as evidence that people can also have success with quarantine. Never said quarantine was 'better'. As I have posted numerous times - I dont personally quarantine - but I buy my fish from only 1 store that has very good husbandry - and have never had a loss (knock on wood).

I mean - even you must see the inconsistencies here - Paul states: the fish must be immune and healthy - in the next breath he is claiming that he adds sick fish all the time. The fact is, fish spontaneously recover from CI. This is especially true if they are in an environment where the free swimming parasites are limited by sterilization techniques. I mean even ebola is not 100% fatal. Some lucky people survive it. Im searching for the cause and effect here. Lots of people feed live foods - and their fish die of CI or velvet (so it can't be just that), lots of people dont add bacteria to their aquariums and their fish dont seem to get CI. so it can't be only that. etc etc. I choose to believe after reading summaries of how all of you do your tanks - that the most important factor is some kind of sterilization/ultrafiltration technique that limits parasite numbers. Is that so terrible lol?

 

[atoll]

I would appreciate it - to avoid continued corrections - to not misquote/misrepresent what I posted. I never said 'zoos know best'. I was counteracting Pauls statement that 'most quarantined fish die'. I was using it as evidence that people can also have success with quarantine. Never said quarantine was 'better'. As I have posted numerous times - I dont personally quarantine - but I buy my fish from only 1 store that has very good husbandry - and have never had a loss (knock on wood).

I mean - even you must see the inconsistencies here - Paul states: the fish must be immune and healthy - in the next breath he is claiming that he adds sick fish all the time. The fact is, fish spontaneously recover from CI. This is especially true if they are in an environment where the free swimming parasites are limited by sterilization techniques. I mean even ebola is not 100% fatal. Some lucky people survive it. Im searching for the cause and effect here. Lots of people feed live foods - and their fish die of CI or velvet (so it can't be just that), lots of people dont add bacteria to their aquariums and their fish dont seem to get CI. so it can't be only that. etc etc. I choose to believe after reading summaries of how all of you do your tanks - that the most important factor is some kind of sterilization/ultrafiltration technique that limits parasite numbers. Is that so terrible lol?

Then you are misreading or misunderstanding Paul's posts. I understand them perfectly well and have tried to explain them. As for Zoos It was a general observstion not directly aimed at you and typing on the phone makes it difficult to isolate sentences. Zoos have major failures they just tend to keep them quiet and many go through a lot of fish. However i will repeat they seem to have one way the quarantine way without exploring different avenues. They are often set in their ways and the humble hobbyest can't teach them any different.

 

[Dogtown]

Then you are misreading or misunderstanding Paul's posts. I understand them perfectly well and have tried to explain them. As for Zoos It was a general observstion not directly aimed at you and typing on the phone makes it difficult to isolate sentences. Zoos have major failures they just tend to keep them quiet and many go through a lot of fish. However i will repeat they seem to have one way the quarantine way without exploring different avenues. They are often set in their ways and the humble hobbyest can't teach them any different.

EDIT
The real question is MnFish1's second paragraph and I would like clarification here as well.

"I mean - even you must see the inconsistencies here - Paul states: the fish must be immune and healthy - in the next breath he is claiming that he adds sick fish all the time."

What is the recommendation for this method? It can't be both.

 

[atoll]

The real question is MnFish1's second paragraph and I would like clarification here as well.

"I mean - even you must see the inconsistencies here - Paul states: the fish must be immune and healthy - in the next breath he is claiming that he adds sick fish all the time. The fact is, fish spontaneously recover from CI. This is especially true if they are in an environment where the free swimming parasites are limited by sterilization techniques. I mean even ebola is not 100% fatal. Some lucky people survive it. Im searching for the cause and effect here. Lots of people feed live foods - and their fish die of CI or velvet (so it can't be just that), lots of people dont add bacteria to their aquariums and their fish dont seem to get CI. so it can't be only that. etc etc. I choose to believe after reading summaries of how all of you do your tanks - that the most important factor is some kind of sterilization/ultrafiltration technique that limits parasite numbers. Is that so terrible lol?"

I will leave that for Paul to try and explain then. However I understand as said and tried to explain as best I can.