It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[MnFish1]

By the way this has been a fun discussion - but I realize its impossible to discuss some of these issues without coming across as a complete (expletive deleted) . But I want to point this out.

Cabinetman says: The Immune guys have an agenda (with which I agreed)
Atoll says: There is no Agenda (and takes offense)
I say: I think the agenda is: The agenda is that quarantining damages a fishes immune system and thus results in fish death (these are Pauls words).
Paul Answers: True

Several posts later I say: Paul says Quarantine is bad.
Paul says: Paul didn't say that.

it has gotten ridiculous - parsing words, and taking things out of context. Im guilty as are others - I just wanted to learn not debate.

 

[MnFish1]

Can I ask how did probiotics get into this? I have never heard of using these in a tank. I really don't know why I have had pretty good success with fish, I still am one that will go to Petco and if they have something I am interested in and it looks sick I will bargain with them and bring it home. A sick fish need the best involvement it can get so into the display it goes. Yeah sometimes they are to sick but if they die it gives everything else something to eat

It got involved because supposedly feeding live foods (per several here) have exactly the bacteria that fish need (like probiotics) - per @Brew12 (As for feeding live blackworms and other fresh food, there is definite benefit to it. Probiotic bacteria must be live to work. Unless a food is frozen specifically to preserve bacteria, most of them die when frozen. Special processes must be used to ensure most survive.)- and the fact that some frozen foods (LRS) contain probiotics. And that both of these would help prevent parasitic infections by improving overall immune function.

 

[MnFish1]

@Brew12 - Google "Does freezing kill bacteria". You might find it interesting. In fact freezing in general doesn't kill pathogens, it doesn't kill yoghurt or kefir cultures.

 

[Mark]

I think the word immunity is misleading when dealing with a complex parasite versus a virus or bacteria. Someone mentioned the dog flea argument, and I agree. You can't really develop an immunity to a parasite. But with most parasites, killing it's host is not ideal. I think initially parasites can overwhelm fish in closed systems, and clearly certain fish with thinner slime tend to be more susceptible in those closed systems.

So how do tanks fare better with ich over time? I have two thoughts around this.

• First, stress does play a role. Stress means less slime coating on the fish. And stress means the weakening effect of a parasite can overwhelm them. Reducing stress and improving oxygen levels definitely helps. I suspect that tangs increase their slime coat if they survive the first few outbreaks. I wouldn't call this immunity though.
• Second, I do not think our tanks are a good long-term home for parasites. There was recently a scientific article that mentioned that cryptocaryon populations tend to fade out in closed system after a year or two. There could be a multitude of reasons, but my guess is it is for same reasons we see a lot of micro-organism diversity go down in tanks. I also think this population fade happens quicker in tanks with ozone, UV, etc.

I've gone fallow to treat ich several times over the last 2o years. Going 3 months with fish in a separate tank sucks. It did work each time. The obligate parasite crypto was gone. The second to last time I had ich, I brought it in with a snail order. There was no stress event, other than adding a few snails. I went fallow again. Just recently I added some TBS sand and rock, and now I have ich again. These outbreaks were years apart each time after adding something other than fish. Not a spec of ich inbetween post fallow. At this point, I think it's inevitable so long as I add inverts, sand, and/or rock in the future without a q-tank for those kind of additions. My plan going forward is a quality UV to cut the outbreak density and lots of food. I will still quarantine new fish however. It's good to treat for flukes, velvet, and worms. And also good to have a place to fatten them up.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Perhaps the question theat should be asked is do we believe there is an advantage to propylactic use of drugs and chemicals versus observation, nutrition, U.V., Ozone, Oxydators, reduced stress, or some other factors?

I have mentioned before I prefer the use of other methods versus prophylactic drugs and chemicals. Largely to the loss rates I experianced when trying to control dosage, biological filtration, and provide a stress free environment for the fish. I also mentionded the need to diagnose due to my experiances with another ciliated protozoa that exist on every fish in a commensal relationship. But given the rise of stress and the ciliated protozoa becomes pathogenic and in high density populations can cause loss rates in excess of 40% in short time frames. Expresion of symptoms resembles both Ich and Velvet and the fish loses its ability to maintain osmosis at the cellular level. This leads to systemic failure of major organs in the fish and death. The protozoa then becomes water bourne looking for an new host.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Perhaps the question theat should be asked is do we believe there is an advantage to propylactic use of drugs and chemicals versus observation, nutrition, U.V., Ozone, Oxydators, reduced stress, or some other factors?

I have mentioned before I prefer the use of other methods versus prophylactic drugs and chemicals. Largely to the loss rates I experianced when trying to control dosage, biological filtration, and provide a stress free environment for the fish. I also mentionded the need to diagnose due to my experiances with another ciliated protozoa that exist on every fish in a commensal relationship. But given the rise of stress and the ciliated protozoa becomes pathogenic and in high density populations can cause loss rates in excess of 40% in short time frames. Expresion of symptoms resembles both Ich and Velvet and the fish loses its ability to maintain osmosis at the cellular level. This leads to systemic failure of major organs in the fish and death. The protozoa then becomes water bourne looking for an new host.

Out of interest, what is this cilliate you mention? I assume it's been described?

 

[Paul B]

Someone mentioned the dog flea argument, and I agree. You can't really develop an immunity to a parasite.

Here is where us, dogs and almost all other animals differ from fish. I once thought that fish could not be immune from parasites as I thought of how we are always bitten by mosquitoes. I thought it was like being immune from bullets. Then I learned that fish have a much better immune system than we do "for living in water". Most of us don't live in water and parasites don't fly so we don't need the protection fish do. We also don't consume as many parasites as fish do as much of our food is vegetables and the animal protein we eat has a much lower parasite load.
We also have strong acid in our stomach to deal with these things. Fish also have acid but from all the water that is mixed with their food, that acid is diluted.

Most of a fishes immunity is concentrated in it's slime which is a living part of the fish. It's not dead like the outer layer of our skin. The slime is water soluble so most parasites just get washed off and the fish has to continually produce more slime. Slime also has anti parasitic, anti viral and anti bacterial properties just like we have "inside" our bodies. Slime is produced in quite a few places in the fish and much of it's immunity is produced in it's kidney which is much larger than ours in relation. Kidneys in mammals are mainly to clean blood but in fish it is mainly for immunity as fish live in a soup of microscopic harmful creatures.

Immunity is the reason fish have slime in the first place. It even extends into their throat and gills.

There are tests going on now to use fish slime to treat human skin burns and other infections. I recently saw an episode on some new doctor show where they used fish skin to cover burns (not that that is a scientific observation, just an interesting fact as those shows get input from real research)

Fish, like us use food for three major things. One being growth, one being reproduction and one is immunity. Reproduction in a fish uses the most calories as fish fill with eggs constantly and those eggs could be a third of the weight of the fish. (it would be like a woman having a 70lb baby every month) The eggs are almost all oil which takes an enormous amount of calories to produce. If a fish is not fed correctly, or enough, reproduction is the first thing to fail which is the reason captive fish don't spawn constantly as they do in the sea. That is also the reason I keep saying, if a fish is spawning, it is the healthiest it can be.

Immunity goes next as producing slime also uses a lot of calories and energy. It must be constantly renewed especially in fish that burry into the sand. The anti pathogen properties in slime will stop being produced if a fish is not fed enough. So a fish can be full of slime, but that slime may not be doing much immunity wise especially is under stress like in a dealers tank.

Growth is the last to go and fish can remain stunted forever.

Here are parts of an article by Pet Med about stress:

How Stress Can Affect Your Fishes’ Health


Stress is a critical factor in fish health. It is so important, in fact, that scientists have studied it in detail, both in the wild and in captive fish. Stress is a very complicated subject that permeates every aspect of fish-keeping.



'Stressors'



The primary rule to remember with stress is that, as the saying goes, prevention is better than cure. The things that cause stress in a fish’s life (“stressors”) include overcrowding, handling, a poor or unfavorable environment, inappropriate or aggressive fish sharing the same tank and, in the wild, predators. All of these (and others) cause fish to react in different ways depending on the type and amount of stress.
Short-term Stress

For short-term stress, the most common reaction is one everybody recognizes -- to flee from danger. In the wild, the cause is frequently a predator. In captivity, it can be a net that causes the reaction, as the keeper tries to capture a fish for closer examination or transfer to another tank.

When a fish senses this kind of danger, it triggers a short-term alarm reaction by releasing hormones, including adrenalin for its locomotory muscles. This will give it a shot of energy to escape quickly. The fish also releases cortisol. Problems occur because the fish’s body exchanges long-term health for a short-term boost to relieve the cause of stress -- the adrenalin disturbs the fish’s natural osmoregulation (the balance of salt and water in its body) and the cortisol affects white blood cells and reduces the effectiveness of the immune system.



Once the panic has passed, the fish must also regain its natural balance. This can take hours or days, even after only a short period of stress.
Long-term Stress

Long-term changes, such as a poor or unsuitable environment, are handled with the same initial response – an alarm message to escape. However, if escape is impossible, the fish does not stop being stressed: it begins to adapt to the new environment as best it can.



At first, the fish’s body tends to overreact but, with time, it will adapt to reach the best possible balance – physiologically and behaviorally. Throughout the period of adaptation, the fish still prioritizes reacting to the new environment and remains stressed, so its immune system suffers and it is prone to disease. Adaptation normally lasts from four to six weeks.

However, if the fish continues to be in stressful conditions, such as a constantly deteriorating environment or endless bullying from aggressive tankmates, it continues to try to adapt and extends all the bodily responses as long as necessary. This reduces its chance of survival. In the worst possible situation, where adaptation to the new environment is impossible (such as putting marine fish in fresh water), the fish will exhaust itself fatally.

Less stress means less disease.

 

[Lasse]

And I would suggest googling "Caveat Emptor". Lasse - Just curious - how does the fact that you and 4 other people at 60 years old - and have been aquarists for decades (as have I) suggest that you know any more or less than someone who merely asks for the rationale for what you do - not disagreeing with you at all - just your rationale. Its not just 'what you do' its 'why do you do it'?

There has been written down many explanations why we do as we do but you do not accept them. Instead you try to criticize every comma like it is a preview for a scientist paper.

I have not say that we know more than others because of age – I´m only mentioned this because I think it interesting that at least 5 persons from different cultures, different backgrounds and because of age have a long experience with living animals in a glass box has come to the same general conclusion. I think we all have going through the different stage of knowledge and experiences by our self and been able to come to some conclusions how to do it. However - because of differences in background – we will explain our conclusions in different way. When Paul B criticize the use of prophylactic treatment of fishes in quarantine protocols – he does it from the outcome – fish die although a straight quarantine protocol is followed. When I criticize the same thing I´m able to do it from a general knowledge of breakdown pathways of foreign substances in an organism’s body. I do not know if Paul B knows about MFO and P-450 enzymes – but I do - and can use this knowledge to state that prophylactic treatment with help of different substances that’s not been developed for fishes are not a very bright idea. It often creates more harm than good in the long run.

And with all due respect - where do you get the 'fact' that >90 percent of fish diseases are stress related.

Years of experiences - I was going to say 99 % but play safe with 90 %. I can put it upside down - prove that it is not that way that stress play the most important role i diseases in an environment that´s it is the most favourable for many potential pathogenic organisms - namely water.

First, stress does play a role. Stress means less slime coating on the fish. And stress means the weakening effect of a parasite can overwhelm them. Reducing stress and improving oxygen levels definitely helps. I suspect that tangs increase their slime coat if they survive the first few outbreaks. I wouldn't call this immunity though.

That´s right - in a scientist point of view immunity is acquired through earlier exposure of the pathogenic organism but on the other hand - there has been shown that fish slime can have a content of active antibodies too.

And again with all due respect - it looks like you have yet another method of a 'natural tank' which is different from the others.

Yes - but the basic philosophy is the same - a very diverse biological ecosystem including the natural bacterial ecosystem

Lastly - the fact that you say 'the tanks are mature' suggests that until they are mature - there would be problems with parasites - yet we don't hear about this either. Why? And Sorry to say - your tank being only 2 years old - according to Paul means nothing (unfortunately).

That´s a false statement Must of us reject the quarantine tank because it is not a stable system and if you build it as a stable system (as Brew12 do) it is not according to the quarantine protocol - you can´t ensure that there is no pathogens left if you do not disinfect the system after every run. A mature system is like try to take a site in a crowded bus - if there is no place - you will be pulled off. An to fill a bus - that can be done quickly.

This lead to the term Probiotic. I do not believe in probiotics at all - because of the crowded bus syndrom. Probiotics can only work if the bus is not crowded. However - to confuse the term probiotic treatment with acquired immunity is totally wrong. They are two different processes.

Paul B:s theories abut the gut flora maybe not so wrong - this has been a ground breaking article Decreased gut microbiota diversity, delayed Bacteroidetes colonization, and reduced Th1 responses in infants delivered by Caesarean section

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Here is where us, dogs and almost all other animals differ from fish. I once thought that fish could not be immune from parasites as I thought of how we are always bitten by mosquitoes. I thought it was like being immune from bullets. Then I learned that fish have a much better immune system than we do "for living in water". Most of us don't live in water and parasites don't fly so we don't need the protection fish do. We also don't consume as many parasites as fish do as much of our food is vegetables and the animal protein we eat has a much lower parasite load.
We also have strong acid in our stomach to deal with these things. Fish also have acid but from all the water that is mixed with their food, that acid is diluted.

Most of a fishes immunity is concentrated in it's slime which is a living part of the fish. It's not dead like the outer layer of our skin. The slime is water soluble so most parasites just get washed off and the fish has to continually produce more slime. Slime also has anti parasitic, anti viral and anti bacterial properties just like we have "inside" our bodies. Slime is produced in quite a few places in the fish and much of it's immunity is produced in it's kidney which is much larger than ours in relation. Kidneys in mammals are mainly to clean blood but in fish it is mainly for immunity as fish live in a soup of microscopic harmful creatures.

Immunity is the reason fish have slime in the first place. It even extends into their throat and gills.

There are tests going on now to use fish slime to treat human skin burns and other infections. I recently saw an episode on some new doctor show where they used fish skin to cover burns (not that that is a scientific observation, just an interesting fact as those shows get input from real research)

Fish, like us use food for three major things. One being growth, one being reproduction and one is immunity. Reproduction in a fish uses the most calories as fish fill with eggs constantly and those eggs could be a third of the weight of the fish. (it would be like a woman having a 70lb baby every month) The eggs are almost all oil which takes an enormous amount of calories to produce. If a fish is not fed correctly, or enough, reproduction is the first thing to fail which is the reason captive fish don't spawn constantly as they do in the sea. That is also the reason I keep saying, if a fish is spawning, it is the healthiest it can be.

Immunity goes next as producing slime also uses a lot of calories and energy. It must be constantly renewed especially in fish that burry into the sand. The anti pathogen properties in slime will stop being produced if a fish is not fed enough. So a fish can be full of slime, but that slime may not be doing much immunity wise especially is under stress like in a dealers tank.

Growth is the last to go and fish can remain stunted forever.

You nail it!!! But I think that some people need - in order to understand what you say -that you sometimes change the word immun system to defence system - otherwise they cant see the forest because of all trees

Sincerely Lasse

 

[mark freshwater]

Hi,
could i ask what biomedia , and gfo media you are using, and have you got a pic of the reactor set up .
Thanks mark

 

[Lasse]

Hi,
could i ask what biomedia , and gfo media you are using, and have you got a pic of the reactor set up .
Thanks mark

????

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

Here is another snippet by "Pet Med" on "How a Fishes Immune System Works. "
It is a very basic article but may be appropriate here :

All fish have an immune system to fight diseases, although the system is by no means as advanced as the ones found in mammals. The system breaks down into two main parts: protection from physical invasion and internal pathogen handling.



Physical protection comes in the form of scales and the layers of dermis and epidermis. These provide defense against physical injury and disease organisms in the environment, which is further improved by a mucus covering that contains bactericides and fungicides. This mucus membrane is constantly renewed. It helps slough off debris and discourages parasites from attaching themselves to the fish.



Pathogens can still enter the fish’s body, either through physical injury or the digestive tract. Although the digestive system has active enzymes and a very pathogen-unfriendly pH level, diseases can sometimes survive. Stress can also be a problem if it causes the gut to seize up -- anaerobic fermentation and active enzymes can attack the gut wall and weaken it enough to allow diseases to enter.


Fishes have some general immunities provided by products in their blood: the antiviral chemical interferon and C-reactive protein immediately attack bacteria and viruses.

As soon as a pathogen is detected, the fish’s body coordinates efforts to resist: firstly, the entry point is sealed off to correct any osmoregulatory problems and hamper the foreign body’s progression. Histamines and other products are produced by damaged cells at the entry point to cause inflammation and make the blood cells close up. Fibrinogen (a blood protein) and clotting factors create a barrier of fibrin to build a physical barrier at the same time. White blood cells are attracted to the same area and pick up the foreign bodies, taking them away to the spleen and kidney for handling.

Unfortunately, many bacteria have ways to beat these defenses, either by producing a dissolving agent that destroys the fibrin and opens the way to infection or by releasing toxins that attack and kill white blood cells.

The kidney and spleen make antibodies specifically built to fight each particular antigen (invading disease). This process can take up to two weeks. The antibodies attach themselves to their antigen and fight it in one of three ways:

1. Detoxify it – so that white blood cells can ingest and destroy it
2. Attract a “compliment” – another blood component that helps destroy the antigen
3. Deactivate reproduction – to stop the antigen proliferating

As in all immune systems, a familiar antigen is dealt with quicker than a new one. The system reacts quicker, antibodies already exist and they multiply extremely quickly upon contact with their antigen. This is the same principle used in vaccination, where a detoxified antigen is introduced to allow a fish time to build appropriate antibodies without danger. If the full-blown disease is encountered later, the immune system can gear-up much faster and survival chances are increased.



It is important to note that environmental pollution also hampers the immune system and reduces a fish’s response to pathogens.

 

[Paul B]

Hi,
could i ask what biomedia , and gfo media you are using, and have you got a pic of the reactor set up .
Thanks mark

Who are you asking?

 

[Lasse]

1982 TFH Publication inc. publicise my favourite handbook - Introduction To Fish Physiology There should be a later version too

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Subsea]

The water gets deep fast on this thread. I read the first post and I read the last page.

Recently, I read a scientific article which documented that 65% of fish died to stress as opposed to 19% due to pathogens.

My 75G Jaubert Plenum and 30G EcoSystem Mud/Macro filter has been set up for 25 years. At 10 years mature, a loss of power stressed the system with resulting Ich epidemic. The 1500G system had zero addittions for over two years. Not being a micro biologist, I am not going to get into details of how. As a Marine Engineer, I understand logic, as well as, cause & effect.

Because I observed Ich in a system with no introductions for > 2yrs, it is only logical to observe that the
28 day incubation of Ich cysts is not absolute. Forty years ago, scientific literature said 14 day incubation period. Today, depending on who you read, incubation period for Ich is 28-56 days. Because of the large changes in incubation period, I decided to go deeper into reading what research papers actually said. The first three peer reviewed research papers said, “most will hatch in X amount of days”. The word MOST says it all. Most does not mean all. Some don’t hatch “right away”. So when do they hatch.

 

[Land Shark]

No doubt, low stress is important to the health and well being of most animals. I think everyone agrees with that.

 

[Cabinetman]

No matter how great you feed your fish or how great the environment is there is always the risk of adding a pathogen that could decimate a closed system like an aquarium. Fish are a living organism on the planet earth and the last time I checked perfect health in any creature is non existent no matter how great the diet or diverse the environment. It is for this reason I recommend at least having something in place to at least observe new fish before you add them to your main population. This is just common sense. I’ll bet you guys who recommend the non qt would never allow a diseased person into your house. Especially if they were showing symptoms regardless at to how healthy you were. By observing you increase your odds you won’t add something your fish can’t fight off. I’ll garantee your fish are not somehow immune to every disease or parasite because of your methods. To say so is just absurd. It goes against every biological system on this planet. At least by qt’ing new fish you can treat potential problems before they get into the main population. Just because I say quarantine I don’t mean inundate it with copper straight away as you make it sound. Copper is one possibility if a disease is seen but observation is the key point. To recommend anything but is just reckless and doesn’t make sense.

 

[mark freshwater]

sorry i was meant to copy/quote the original thread post but it didnt work ill try to find it again

 

[Gweeds1980]

Hi,
could i ask what biomedia , and gfo media you are using, and have you got a pic of the reactor set up .
Thanks mark

Not sure if that was directed at me as the OP? If so... none. The tank was originally set up with rowa, live rock, DSB, carbon, refugium (with caulerpa) and skimmer. All came offline for the last 3 month's, with the exception of the live rock and DSB.

 

[mark freshwater]

sorry i was meant to copy/quote the original thread post but it didnt work ill try to find it again