It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Cabinetman]

Mark maybe I should have said "my" fish are, or seem to be immune at least for 35 or so years. I can't say they are almost immune because that would suggest that there was one or more times when I lost a fish in that time from a parasite. But I didn't so I "assume" they are "totally" immune from at least any parasites I added. I don't know if the parasites from New York water can infect tropical fish. I don't see why not because our water here now is about 70 degrees. I also can't swear that all the fish I added in 35 years from dozens of stores and different people's tanks and the fish I collected were infected but it seems to be a good assumption. The disease threads are full of people adding one coral or clam and immediately their fish are infected.
I am almost 70 years old. If I keep the tank running for another 15 years (probably in a nursing home) and if nothing gets infected would that be enough time to say my fish are immune or would the tank have to run 100 years?

Most of the people here are Noobs to me and they have been trying to discredit my methods for decades. But even if my methods are ridiculous and can't possibly work, why do they. Where are the methods from people who quarantine and have fish that are only dying from old age while spawning that entire time. This hobby is 47 years old in the US, where are the old tanks? What happened to those fish? I know because I have been here all that time and almost none of the people from the beginning of the hobby or even 20 years ago got out of the hobby, Or died.

I didn't wake up one day and come up with this. I have researched this for 50 years and learned by doing. Most people learn on the internet which is by following. Following is great but if you never leave the box and try something else you just won't know and you will use the same methods we used in the 70s which didn't work then and don
t work now. I have been mis quoted so many times in this thread that my head is spinning and it is giving me a headache. Can you count how many times I said "all bacteria is not the same, Only disease causing bacteria will get fish immune" Then 5 people will say "there is bacteria in everything. That has nothing to do with what I said. Also quarantine kills fish. No, it doesn't right away, but it does as soon as a pathogen is introduced. Quarantine is keeping fish away from pathogens. Not observing them in a tank. People know what I meant. I also didn't say anything about copper killing an immune system. If I did, I was wrong as I just don't know. I am very busy building much of my new house and I come on here for a few minutes to "relax" but I can't choose every word perfectly especially when people know what I mean very well.

I just moved my tank here. Talk about stress with me and the fish. They were in a box in filthy muddy water, I threw them into NSW with no lights, heater, nothing. I lost nothing. If anyone wants to come here and look, be my guest. Bring a sick fish if you like.

Is there anything you could do that would result In loosing fish?

 

[WVNed]

It has not, I used one yesterday

I know you have one but it is the first one I have seen in a long time. A Vortex was a commonly stocked LFS item back when I got mine along with the bags and the media. Then they went away. I used the Marineland HOT for a while also but it was not great.

 

[MnFish1]

Let's be clear on this. Freezing doesn't kill all bacteria, but it does kill more than half on the first freeze. Here is a study on repetitive freezing including the bacteria type LRS uses.
http://jb.asm.org/content/70/6/711.full.pdf

And I went to an old conversation with Larry and pulled this out.

With all due respect - I never said that 'repeated freezing' didn't decrease bacterial numbers. I said there is no difference between taking a cod, grinding it up and freezing it - vs feeding 'fresh ie non-frozen' food. Likewise there is no difference between feeding 'live black worms' vs frozen black worms for the same reason. There is no reason to repeatedly thaw and refreeze food.

 

[Brew12]

Is there anything you could do that would result In loosing fish?

He has lost a few fish in the past year. He is too lazy to build a screen cover for his tank!

 

[Cabinetman]

I actually use a pool sized diatom filter on my 560 gallon reef full time. Change about 4lbs of diatom powder every 2-3 weeks and also have a pool sand filter with glass pearls as media that filters down to 4 micron and when I had a velvet outbreak In my tank it did not remove enough to slow the infection enough that I wouldn’t have lost fish without treatment. Plus I run ozone and was feeding lots of good quality frozen food.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Regarding 'stress' in fish - stress is such a broad term that it becomes almost meaningless. There is also no way to 'prove a negative' - so I can't prove that 99% of fish disease is due to stress. But I would say - that common sense would tell you that though 'stress' plays a role as shown in many papers, you have to have the disease organism present for that disease to be 'caused'.

Though you may not be able to prove a negative, you maybe be able to infer a negative by graphing parameters. And documenting fish behavior. My basis being the importance of environmental chemistry to aquatic life. The well documented effect of shreckstoff on behavior and when its produced by a fish.
If done clinically the actual amounts present of shreckstoff might also be able to be gathered.

I am also assuming a less stressed fish is also one that experiences less fear.

 

[MnFish1]

Though you may not be able to prove a negative, you maybe be able to infer a negative by graphing parameters. And documenting fish behavior. My basis being the importance of environmental chemistry to aquatic life. The well documented effect of shreckstoff on behavior and when its produced by a fish.
If done clinically the actual amounts present of shreckstoff might also be able to be gathered.

I am also assuming a less stressed fish is also one that experiences less fear.

I have never suggested (at all) that stress doesn't play a role in fish disease. In fact I've never seen anyone suggest that stress doesn't play a role in fish disease. Stress though is a very 'broad' term. I hear people saying that they reduce it - but there really isn't any way to quantitate that (Is there?). I mean if its fish selection - everyone chooses different fish. There is no way to recommend 'what to do' - for the average aquarist. Is it tank size (Im sure the smaller tank causes more likelihood for 'stress'). I guess I haven't heard how any of the 'Immune tanks' method specifically 'reduces stress' - as compared to others.

There is certainly research (after measuring hormones in the water in an experimental tank) that after creating artificial stress that the levels of these hormones quickly rise and quickly drop when the stress is removed. And these chemicals are associated with a decrease in some immune parameters. This can occur even when a fish is chased, a light goes on/off quickly, etc.

Übrigens, Sie müssen Deutscher sein, weil Schreckstoff kein Englisches Wort is. ...

 

[Subsea]

@MnFish1
Documented is the key word. Just because my system was not a scientific laboratory, differrent variables were not isolated just as they are not isolated in a mature reef tank, does not mean it did not happen. With that point, most if not all of this discussion is academic.

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1
Documented is the key word. Just because my system was not a scientific laboratory, differrent variables were not isolated just as they are not isolated in a mature reef tank, does not mean it did not happen. With that point, most if not all of this discussion is academic.

Again. No one said ‘it’ didn’t happen. If you think most of the discussion is academic you haven’t read the discussion. There are several things various posted as ‘fact’ ie “quarantined fish die” among many others. Why some of you seem to want to create an argument where there is none I’m not sure. Because I certainly don’t doubt that lasse Paul you atoll etc have great tanks. I’m trying to learn from you to improve mine. No more no less. When someone posts something vague I ask about it. When someone posts something and contradictsthemselves in another post I ask about it

 

[Subsea]

Again. No one said ‘it’ didn’t happen. If you think most of the discussion is academic you haven’t read the discussion. There are several things various posted as ‘fact’ ie “quarantined fish die” among many others. Why some of you seem to want to create an argument where there is none I’m not sure. Because I certainly don’t doubt that lasse Paul you atoll etc have great tanks. I’m trying to learn from you to improve mine. No more no less. When someone posts something vague I ask about it. When someone posts something and contradictsthemselves in another post I ask about it

With respect to academic, I felt that your comment that “you knew without a doubt that ich was no longer in your system” was without proof or documentation aside from your observation. What is scientific about that? I have no issue with you asking questions for clarification. With respect to creating an argument, I would offer that the one common factor with the individuals that are “creating an argument” is you.

 

[MnFish1]

With respect to academic, I felt that your comment that “you knew without a doubt that ich was no longer in your system” was without proof or documentation aside from your observation. What is scientific about that? I have no issue with you asking questions for clarification. With respect to creating an argument, I would offer that the one common factor with the individuals that are “creating an argument” is you.

I do not recall saying anything about ich not being in my system without a doubt. Likewise unless a person with an immune tank documents periodically that they have free swimming parasites in their water great enough to cause infection they can’t state that ich is even there.

Btw rather than paraphrasing what you think I said or meant perhaps it’s easiest to just use thit quote or reply button. Thanks

 

[Subsea]

I do not recall saying anything about ich not being in my system without a doubt. Likewise unless a person with an immune tank documents periodically that they have free swimming parasites in their water great enough to cause infection they can’t state that ich is even there.

Btw rather than paraphrasing what you think I said or meant perhaps it’s easiest to just use thit quote or reply button. Thanks

You are right, I should have added the comma.

 

[mta_morrow]

Seriously, this is a good thread that is helping me and the way I want my system to operate.

You 2 folks would do well by taking your issues with each other out of this thread and pm each other.

@PaulB
@Lasse
@atoll

Thanks for sharing all you have learned and continuing to endure!

 

[Subsea]

@Brew12 - Google "Does freezing kill bacteria". You might find it interesting. In fact freezing in general doesn't kill pathogens, it doesn't kill yoghurt or kefir cultures.

Freezing kills most good bacteria and as you have pointed out, pathagions survive. The same is true with respect to antibiotics. Good bacteria are more susceptible to antibiotics with a resulting decrease in the population of good bacteria to fight bad bacteria. Pathogens thrive in this environment.

 

[atoll]

I wrote the following last year it kinda explains where I came come from in marines and where I am at now. Quite boring for most I would guess so I won't blame you if you skip it so you have been warned.
36 years keeping marines never quarantined a fish or coral and not had a serious outbreak of disease in 25 plus years.

I started in marines around 1980 using under gravel filtration powered by a large 4 outlet air pump that was so noisy you had to raise your voice to be heard while picking up the fillings from your teeth with the vibration from it. Luckily powerheads you could attach to the uplifts came along, not that they were all that reliable mind but at least a lot the noise went with the air pump.

Back in those days you bought a fish and got white spot with it FOC, if you were lucky you cured it with a copper medication if not you killed it with the same copper medication. Few people I knew had a quarantine setup so it more a case of in you go and fingers crossed but it was never all that successful for some reason. Sometimes we would be lucky sometimes not, Russian Roulette comes to mind. Keeping marines was certainly more of a challenge back then but some of us managed to keep them successfully with a certain amount of luck and a lot of witchcraft.

About 25 years ago my approach to keeping marines changed and changed for the better. Equipment steadily got better and more reliable but one thing remained the same for quite some time and that was food and feeding. We had flake food or frozen food and that was it. Tetra and Aquarian for flake foods and Gamma for frozen foods like brine shrimp, mussel and cockle and little else. We were told you had to feed gamma irradiated foods from the sea or you run the risk of wiping out your whole tank. We were also told to feed sparingly and only enough for fish to eat within 30 seconds at most and then only once a day or our tanks would turn into stinking swamps.

Always the one to experiment with new things which I guess was easier to do back then ..perhaps, I decided to try my hand at making my own foods. I was lucky as I worked close to a fresh fish wholesalers and fish market. I started off by buying fresh live mussel. clam and whole fresh squid and processed it myself. I am not going to go into detail on how I processed my foods as that is not the purpose of this article. However, once processed I put it into yogurt pots and put in the freezer.


I did a bit of digging around (no interweb back then) and when it came to feeding time I thawed out a small portion of food and added Abidec liquid children’s vitamins to the thawed-out mush. I added it to the tank for the first time and waited for Armageddon, strangely despite warnings from those who knew better it never arrived and the fish seemed to quite like it. Days went by, weeks tuned into months and my fish looked good and healthy as they should. I decided to expand my home-made foods to include fresh shrimps, cockle, oysters and other shell fish. I even bought white bait which is a very small Sardine type fish that I fed to a lion fish and puffer I had. Everything not only survived my foolish ways but seemed to be thriving on their new diets.

One of the things I noticed was it seemed my fish were no longer so susceptible to the dreaded white spot or velvet but of course that was just a coincidence and luck on my part, right? Time went by and everything was doing very well. I added a few fish from various LFS’s (I had 2 tanks at the time) and all did well with no sign of diseases breaking out. I told a few LFS’s about me making my own foods and soon I had a small cottage industry going selling my foods to 3 LFS’s (LFS’s who sold marines were thin on the ground back then)

I still feed some commercially available frozen foods like brine shrimp, mysis, rotifers, fish, oyster and lobster eggs and the occasional very small granular dry foods which have improved a lot over the years. I also tend to make up a batch of food that will last me 3 days feeding 3 or 4 times per day.

I feed often as most of the fish I keep are more or less opportunist and constant feeders on the reef and you can’t improve on mother nature so I reckoned the closer I get to their feeding regime the better it is for them. Most of these small fish have poor inefficient digestive systems and feeding more rather than often only results in half digested food being expelled. A little and often being my rule for feeding my fish and has been for the past 25 years or so.

I continued to experiment carefully and although all was well using the children’s vitamins I turned to fish oil as my thinking was it’s more natural and the oil would be similar to what they would get from their foods in the wild. I made my own ventury skimmer from an air driven Sander skimmer and later bought a Tunze protein skimmer. I made my own sump and filtration system utilising a media call Perlag a light porous like natural stone along with something call Hortag.

Along with a friend who was interested in what I was doing who also kept marines and lived close we visited a long since gone LFS who sold Discus The owner showed us our first Oxydator which was a model A. This simple device uses Hydrogen peroxide and catalysts to put oxygen into the surrounding water helping to purify it and increase the redox potential. Discus even used the body to lay their eggs on it seems.

After talking about Oxydator’s with the shop owner who didn’t seem to know so much about them to be honest I decided to purchase one, The result of which I have used them in all my aquariums ever since. I don’t intend to go into the workings of the Oxydator here but have written many articles on them and their use in the marine aquarium both fish only and reef systems. Google them for more info if interested.

I firmly believe the use of Oxydator’s in my aquarium’s and my home-made foods over the last 25 years have been a valuable, nay necessary, aid in helping to prevent serious outbreaks of the likes of white spot and velvet disease’s. Good food, well fed fish and oxygenated clean water all adding to my success over the years in keeping marines.

Now, I say serious outbreaks of diseases as I am 100% sure I have introduced these kinds of nasties into my aquariums over the last years and have even seen evidence of them with fish like newly introduced Royal grammas a well know fish susceptible to white spot. They seem to be a magnet to white spot especially when first introduced and of course will bring it with them, very thoughtful of these charming little fish, I currently have 4 in my tank.

I have seen Royal grammas rubbing against rockwork and the sand as they were clearly being irritated by something on them and yes, I even saw the odd white spot. However, after round 48 hours they would usually stop the flicking and rubbing and that would be the last I would see of this kind of irritable behaviour. During these times, none of my many other small fish would show signs of any parasite on them and apart from being rather interested in their new tanks mates that would be just about it.

I changed my whole philosophy towards fish keeping in general. The puffer, lion fish and a grouper were taken back to my LFS and was given store credit in exchange. The tank was tripped down and sold on. I then decided to concentrate on mainly small fish and in particular those that kept closely to the reef rather than venturing away into open water like tangs for instance. I also decided to keep pairs or groups of fish as they would be found on the reef. I also had to consider compatibility with the existing stock of course so this was no mean challenge back then.

There was very little to no information on putting 2 or more fish of the same species together and what there was warned against doing so stating all hell would break out with death of one or more all but inevitable. Clown fish were the exception to the rule of the day but that just about where it ended. I could find real information other than how fish were found in the wild as in pairs or groups. Oh, for the internet back in the 80s but we did have the US magazine FAMA which a few shops stocked which didn’t offer so much in what I was trying to achieve but was a very good source of other information on the hobby.

The other problem I had was one of sexing fish, again little was known and if it was there was no readily available information but I digress. All I can say is that for most parts I was successful and some of my fish definitely spawned including a pair of Pygmy angels, Common clowns, Royal grammas and Six lined wrasses and Mandarins for sure.

I also aquascaped my aquarium with quite a lot of rock but with plenty of caves and overhangs in attempting to create a more natural environment for those fish I was now keeping. My clowns also had an anemone to play in and help reduce stress. My attempt was not just to create a natural a home for my fish but to reduce the chance of stress among them.

Forward 25 years and much has changed in the hobby with regards to equipment but in some ways not as much as I would like with regards to how we keep our animals as close as possible to their natural environment. Of course, my aquarium is far from perfect, I would like it much bigger than my current 100 gallons but you can’t have all you wish for unless you are very lucky indeed.

uses Hydrogen peroxide and catalysts to put oxygen into the surrounding water helping to purify it and increase the redox potential. Discus even used the body to lay their eggs on it seems.

After talking about Oxydator’s with the shop owner who didn’t seem to know so much about them to be honest I decided to purchase one, The result of which I have used them in all my aquariums ever since. I don’t intend to go into the workings of the Oxydator here but have written many articles on them and their use in the marine aquarium both fish only and reef systems. Google them for more info if interested.

I firmly believe the use of Oxydator’s in my aquarium’s and my home-made foods over the last 25 years have been a valuable, nay necessary, aid in helping to prevent serious outbreaks of the likes of white spot and velvet disease’s. Good food, well fed fish and oxygenated clean water all adding to my success over the years in keeping marines.

Now, I say serious outbreaks of diseases as I am 100% sure I have introduced these kinds of nasties into my aquariums over the last years and have even seen evidence of them with fish like newly introduced Royal grammas a well know fish susceptible to white spot. They seem to be a magnet to white spot especially when first introduced and of course will bring it with them, very thoughtful of these charming little fish, I currently have 4 in my tank.

I have seen Royal grammas rubbing against rockwork and the sand as they were clearly being irritated by something on them and yes, I even saw the odd white spot. However, after round 48 hours they would usually stop the flicking and rubbing and that would be the last I would see of this kind of irritable behaviour. During these times, none of my many other small fish would show signs of any parasite on them and apart from being rather interested in their new tanks mates that would be just about it.

I changed my whole philosophy towards fish keeping in general. The puffer, lion fish and a grouper were taken back to my LFS and was given store credit in exchange. The tank was tripped down and sold on. I then decided to concentrate on mainly small fish and in particular those that kept closely to the reef rather than venturing away into open water like tangs for instance. I also decided to keep pairs or groups of fish as they would be found on the reef. I also had to consider compatibility with the existing stock of course so this was no mean challenge back then.

There was very little to no information on putting 2 or more fish of the same species together and what there was warned against doing so stating all hell would break out with death of one or more all but inevitable. Clown fish were the exception to the rule of the day but that just about where it ended. I could find real information other than how fish were found in the wild as in pairs or groups. Oh, for the internet back in the 80s but we did have the US magazine FAMA which a few shops stocked which didn’t offer so much in what I was trying to achieve but was a very good source of other information on the hobby.

The other problem I had was one of sexing fish, again little was known and if it was there was no readily available information but I digress. All I can say is that for most parts I was successful and some of my fish definitely spawned including a pair of Pygmy angels, Common clowns, Royal grammas and Six lined wrasses and Mandarins for sure.

I also aquascaped my aquarium with quite a lot of rock but with plenty of caves and overhangs in attempting to create a more natural environment for those fish I was now keeping. My clowns also had an anemone to play in and help reduce stress. My attempt was not just to create natural a home for my fish but to reduce the chance of stress among them.

Forward 25 years and much has changed in the hobby with regards to equipment but in some ways not as much as I would like with regards to how we keep our animals as close as possible to their natural environment. Of course, my aquarium is far from perfect, I would like it much bigger than my current 100 gallons but you can’t have all you wish for unless you are very lucky indeed.

 

[Paul B]

. I hope the rest of your post was not directed at me.

Of course not, it wasn't directed at anyone specifically.

He has lost a few fish in the past year. He is too lazy to build a screen cover for his tank!

I lost my male bluestripe pipefish this year. My male Janss pipefish witch is 3 times bigger almost bit it in half.

 

[MnFish1]

I wrote the following last year it kinda explains where I came come from in marines and where I am at now. Quite boring for most I would guess so I won't blame you if you skip it so you have been warned.
36 years keeping marines never quarantined a fish or coral and not had a serious outbreak of disease in 25 plus years.

I started in marines around 1980 using under gravel filtration powered by a large 4 outlet air pump that was so noisy you had to raise your voice to be heard while picking up the fillings from your teeth with the vibration from it. Luckily powerheads you could attach to the uplifts came along, not that they were all that reliable mind but at least a lot the noise went with the air pump.

Back in those days you bought a fish and got white spot with it FOC, if you were lucky you cured it with a copper medication if not you killed it with the same copper medication. Few people I knew had a quarantine setup so it more a case of in you go and fingers crossed but it was never all that successful for some reason. Sometimes we would be lucky sometimes not, Russian Roulette comes to mind. Keeping marines was certainly more of a challenge back then but some of us managed to keep them successfully with a certain amount of luck and a lot of witchcraft.

About 25 years ago my approach to keeping marines changed and changed for the better. Equipment steadily got better and more reliable but one thing remained the same for quite some time and that was food and feeding. We had flake food or frozen food and that was it. Tetra and Aquarian for flake foods and Gamma for frozen foods like brine shrimp, mussel and cockle and little else. We were told you had to feed gamma irradiated foods from the sea or you run the risk of wiping out your whole tank. We were also told to feed sparingly and only enough for fish to eat within 30 seconds at most and then only once a day or our tanks would turn into stinking swamps.

Always the one to experiment with new things which I guess was easier to do back then ..perhaps, I decided to try my hand at making my own foods. I was lucky as I worked close to a fresh fish wholesalers and fish market. I started off by buying fresh live mussel. clam and whole fresh squid and processed it myself. I am not going to go into detail on how I processed my foods as that is not the purpose of this article. However, once processed I put it into yogurt pots and put in the freezer.


I did a bit of digging around (no interweb back then) and when it came to feeding time I thawed out a small portion of food and added Abidec liquid children’s vitamins to the thawed-out mush. I added it to the tank for the first time and waited for Armageddon, strangely despite warnings from those who knew better it never arrived and the fish seemed to quite like it. Days went by, weeks tuned into months and my fish looked good and healthy as they should. I decided to expand my home-made foods to include fresh shrimps, cockle, oysters and other shell fish. I even bought white bait which is a very small Sardine type fish that I fed to a lion fish and puffer I had. Everything not only survived my foolish ways but seemed to be thriving on their new diets.

One of the things I noticed was it seemed my fish were no longer so susceptible to the dreaded white spot or velvet but of course that was just a coincidence and luck on my part, right? Time went by and everything was doing very well. I added a few fish from various LFS’s (I had 2 tanks at the time) and all did well with no sign of diseases breaking out. I told a few LFS’s about me making my own foods and soon I had a small cottage industry going selling my foods to 3 LFS’s (LFS’s who sold marines were thin on the ground back then)

I still feed some commercially available frozen foods like brine shrimp, mysis, rotifers, fish, oyster and lobster eggs and the occasional very small granular dry foods which have improved a lot over the years. I also tend to make up a batch of food that will last me 3 days feeding 3 or 4 times per day.

I feed often as most of the fish I keep are more or less opportunist and constant feeders on the reef and you can’t improve on mother nature so I reckoned the closer I get to their feeding regime the better it is for them. Most of these small fish have poor inefficient digestive systems and feeding more rather than often only results in half digested food being expelled. A little and often being my rule for feeding my fish and has been for the past 25 years or so.

I continued to experiment carefully and although all was well using the children’s vitamins I turned to fish oil as my thinking was it’s more natural and the oil would be similar to what they would get from their foods in the wild. I made my own ventury skimmer from an air driven Sander skimmer and later bought a Tunze protein skimmer. I made my own sump and filtration system utilising a media call Perlag a light porous like natural stone along with something call Hortag.

Along with a friend who was interested in what I was doing who also kept marines and lived close we visited a long since gone LFS who sold Discus The owner showed us our first Oxydator which was a model A. This simple device uses Hydrogen peroxide and catalysts to put oxygen into the surrounding water helping to purify it and increase the redox potential. Discus even used the body to lay their eggs on it seems.

After talking about Oxydator’s with the shop owner who didn’t seem to know so much about them to be honest I decided to purchase one, The result of which I have used them in all my aquariums ever since. I don’t intend to go into the workings of the Oxydator here but have written many articles on them and their use in the marine aquarium both fish only and reef systems. Google them for more info if interested.

I firmly believe the use of Oxydator’s in my aquarium’s and my home-made foods over the last 25 years have been a valuable, nay necessary, aid in helping to prevent serious outbreaks of the likes of white spot and velvet disease’s. Good food, well fed fish and oxygenated clean water all adding to my success over the years in keeping marines.

Now, I say serious outbreaks of diseases as I am 100% sure I have introduced these kinds of nasties into my aquariums over the last years and have even seen evidence of them with fish like newly introduced Royal grammas a well know fish susceptible to white spot. They seem to be a magnet to white spot especially when first introduced and of course will bring it with them, very thoughtful of these charming little fish, I currently have 4 in my tank.

I have seen Royal grammas rubbing against rockwork and the sand as they were clearly being irritated by something on them and yes, I even saw the odd white spot. However, after round 48 hours they would usually stop the flicking and rubbing and that would be the last I would see of this kind of irritable behaviour. During these times, none of my many other small fish would show signs of any parasite on them and apart from being rather interested in their new tanks mates that would be just about it.

I changed my whole philosophy towards fish keeping in general. The puffer, lion fish and a grouper were taken back to my LFS and was given store credit in exchange. The tank was tripped down and sold on. I then decided to concentrate on mainly small fish and in particular those that kept closely to the reef rather than venturing away into open water like tangs for instance. I also decided to keep pairs or groups of fish as they would be found on the reef. I also had to consider compatibility with the existing stock of course so this was no mean challenge back then.

There was very little to no information on putting 2 or more fish of the same species together and what there was warned against doing so stating all hell would break out with death of one or more all but inevitable. Clown fish were the exception to the rule of the day but that just about where it ended. I could find real information other than how fish were found in the wild as in pairs or groups. Oh, for the internet back in the 80s but we did have the US magazine FAMA which a few shops stocked which didn’t offer so much in what I was trying to achieve but was a very good source of other information on the hobby.

The other problem I had was one of sexing fish, again little was known and if it was there was no readily available information but I digress. All I can say is that for most parts I was successful and some of my fish definitely spawned including a pair of Pygmy angels, Common clowns, Royal grammas and Six lined wrasses and Mandarins for sure.

I also aquascaped my aquarium with quite a lot of rock but with plenty of caves and overhangs in attempting to create a more natural environment for those fish I was now keeping. My clowns also had an anemone to play in and help reduce stress. My attempt was not just to create a natural a home for my fish but to reduce the chance of stress among them.

Forward 25 years and much has changed in the hobby with regards to equipment but in some ways not as much as I would like with regards to how we keep our animals as close as possible to their natural environment. Of course, my aquarium is far from perfect, I would like it much bigger than my current 100 gallons but you can’t have all you wish for unless you are very lucky indeed.

uses Hydrogen peroxide and catalysts to put oxygen into the surrounding water helping to purify it and increase the redox potential. Discus even used the body to lay their eggs on it seems.

After talking about Oxydator’s with the shop owner who didn’t seem to know so much about them to be honest I decided to purchase one, The result of which I have used them in all my aquariums ever since. I don’t intend to go into the workings of the Oxydator here but have written many articles on them and their use in the marine aquarium both fish only and reef systems. Google them for more info if interested.

I firmly believe the use of Oxydator’s in my aquarium’s and my home-made foods over the last 25 years have been a valuable, nay necessary, aid in helping to prevent serious outbreaks of the likes of white spot and velvet disease’s. Good food, well fed fish and oxygenated clean water all adding to my success over the years in keeping marines.

Now, I say serious outbreaks of diseases as I am 100% sure I have introduced these kinds of nasties into my aquariums over the last years and have even seen evidence of them with fish like newly introduced Royal grammas a well know fish susceptible to white spot. They seem to be a magnet to white spot especially when first introduced and of course will bring it with them, very thoughtful of these charming little fish, I currently have 4 in my tank.

I have seen Royal grammas rubbing against rockwork and the sand as they were clearly being irritated by something on them and yes, I even saw the odd white spot. However, after round 48 hours they would usually stop the flicking and rubbing and that would be the last I would see of this kind of irritable behaviour. During these times, none of my many other small fish would show signs of any parasite on them and apart from being rather interested in their new tanks mates that would be just about it.

I changed my whole philosophy towards fish keeping in general. The puffer, lion fish and a grouper were taken back to my LFS and was given store credit in exchange. The tank was tripped down and sold on. I then decided to concentrate on mainly small fish and in particular those that kept closely to the reef rather than venturing away into open water like tangs for instance. I also decided to keep pairs or groups of fish as they would be found on the reef. I also had to consider compatibility with the existing stock of course so this was no mean challenge back then.

There was very little to no information on putting 2 or more fish of the same species together and what there was warned against doing so stating all hell would break out with death of one or more all but inevitable. Clown fish were the exception to the rule of the day but that just about where it ended. I could find real information other than how fish were found in the wild as in pairs or groups. Oh, for the internet back in the 80s but we did have the US magazine FAMA which a few shops stocked which didn’t offer so much in what I was trying to achieve but was a very good source of other information on the hobby.

The other problem I had was one of sexing fish, again little was known and if it was there was no readily available information but I digress. All I can say is that for most parts I was successful and some of my fish definitely spawned including a pair of Pygmy angels, Common clowns, Royal grammas and Six lined wrasses and Mandarins for sure.

I also aquascaped my aquarium with quite a lot of rock but with plenty of caves and overhangs in attempting to create a more natural environment for those fish I was now keeping. My clowns also had an anemone to play in and help reduce stress. My attempt was not just to create natural a home for my fish but to reduce the chance of stress among them.

Forward 25 years and much has changed in the hobby with regards to equipment but in some ways not as much as I would like with regards to how we keep our animals as close as possible to their natural environment. Of course, my aquarium is far from perfect, I would like it much bigger than my current 100 gallons but you can’t have all you wish for unless you are very lucky indeed.

This is an outstanding summary - and much appreciated. I agree wholeheartedly with this statement: I firmly believe the use of Oxydator’s in my aquarium’s and my home-made foods over the last 25 years have been a valuable, nay necessary, aid in helping to prevent serious outbreaks of the likes of white spot and velvet disease’s. Good food, well fed fish and oxygenated clean water all adding to my success over the years in keeping marines.

It would be interesting to hear how you make your homemade food. Thanks

 

[MnFish1]

Freezing kills most good bacteria and as you have pointed out, pathagions survive. The same is true with respect to antibiotics. Good bacteria are more susceptible to antibiotics with a resulting decrease in the population of good bacteria to fight bad bacteria. Pathogens thrive in this environment.

Again - if you read the article that I cited - it says the opposite. Freezing does not kill 'good' bacteria. Frozen yogurt, for example contains nearly the same amount of 'good bacteria' as plain yogurt. Good bacteria are not more susceptible to antibiotics. What happens in humans at least is that (with certain antibiotics) all of the bacteria are killed - good and bad - and that leaves a void. If a pathogen like C Diff is introduced during this time - serious problems can ensue. This is one time where probiotics (In humans) can be helpful.

And to make it clear - I don't advocate the use of Copper, antibiotics, dips, etc etc unless there is an actual disease. No prophylactixis.

Seriously, this is a good thread that is helping me and the way I want my system to operate. You 2 folks would do well by taking your issues with each other out of this thread and pm each other.

Actually - I share this opinion. Sometimes people should PM - I dont know Subsea - I have never seen his posts before - there is nothing personal between us. However, when someone says something I didn't say - as evidence against what I'm saying publicly - its kind of hard not to respond. I have no personal vendetta against anyone. You're kind of implying that people are attacking or challenging Lasse, Paul, Atoll as people - it just isn't happening. BTW - if anyone finds a contradiction or error in what I say - Im more than happy to admit I'm either wrong - or delve further into the issue. I have learned a ton from just discussing this with Paul, Atoll, and Lasse.

 

[Paul B]

Likewise unless a person with an immune tank documents periodically that they have free swimming parasites in their water great enough to cause infection they can’t state that ich is even there.

I posted this on this forum in 2015:

So I got two of these very cool shrimpfish last week and one lasted 2 days and croaked. I am having Baby brine shrimp problems as the shrimp may have gone on strike as very few of them are hatching and many of my fish depend on new born shrimp. I replaced that shrimpfish but they are hungry. The one that croaked first became covered in spots, eyes clouded over the whole bit. He looked like an advertisement for parasites. I don't know if he had parasites on him when I got him or if they are the ones I am sure are happily living in my tank

 

[Subsea]

Again - if you read the article that I cited - it says the opposite. Freezing does not kill 'good' bacteria. Frozen yogurt, for example contains nearly the same amount of 'good bacteria' as plain yogurt. Good bacteria are not more susceptible to antibiotics. What happens in humans at least is that (with certain antibiotics) all of the bacteria are killed - good and bad - and that leaves a void. If a pathogen like C Diff is introduced during this time - serious problems can ensue. This is one time where probiotics (In humans) can be helpful.

And to make it clear - I don't advocate the use of Copper, antibiotics, dips, etc etc unless there is an actual disease. No prophylactixis.


Actually - I share this opinion. Sometimes people should PM - I dont know Subsea - I have never seen his posts before - there is nothing personal between us. However, when someone says something I didn't say - as evidence against what I'm saying publicly - its kind of hard not to respond. I have no personal vendetta against anyone. You're kind of implying that people are attacking or challenging Lasse, Paul, Atoll as people - it just isn't happening. BTW - if anyone finds a contradiction or error in what I say - Im more than happy to admit I'm either wrong - or delve further into the issue. I have learned a ton from just discussing this with Paul, Atoll, and Lasse.

@MnFish1
I read the link you posted.

I think that this link that documents specific bacteria response to freezing temperatures is more scientific with its terms. For certain, freezing kills bacteria, but not all bacteria. In the controlled experiment in this link, three specific bacteria were subjected to freezing for differrent time durations. In each species of bacteria, mortality rates of 70-90% were achieved. Weak bacteria die first.

https://www.quora.com/Microbiology-...a-or-merely-slow-down-their-reproduction-rate