It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[jasonrusso]

With regards to the introduction of corals, mainly frags, sometimes I dip them in my home made dip sometimes not but each get inspected for signs of parasites which are rarely found. I aclimatise them over a period of a few hours to my DT water before introduction but no QT.

I think that dipping corals is very different than fish. I don't think that a coral can gain immunity to flatworms, redbugs, etc.

 

[Land Shark]

It is hard (and not beneficial) to post one sentence of a paragraph because people will get the wrong Idea. For instance I did say that Quarantined fish will not be in great health and will probably die. But that was an answer to the question, "What would happen if you put a quarantined fish into a tank infected with pathogens" (not the exact words) I do feel that quarantined fish will never be in great health as they are missing their immunity. But I am talking about quarantining as "never feeding the fish live bacteria or parasites." Not just observing them in a separate tank for a week or two.

In this thread this has always been mis quoted. I am saying that Sterile fish (by that I mean fish that have not encountered harmful pathogens) will die in the presence of pathogens. They have to as they have no immunity to them that the fish make BY BEING EXPOSED TO THEM. Fish don't magically become immune and if Quarantined (like I said with an extended period of no living pathogens) they will not have immunity to anything.

The similarity the three or four of us have running immune tanks is that we all feed living bacteria. Atoll makes food, Lasse adds live snails, I feed live food and mud and I forgot what Gweeds does but I am sure it involves some sort of live bacteria.

This is an extremely simple concept but for some reason many people make it very complicated. Creatures have been living on Earth for millions of years by eating foods with live bacteria in them so their bodies can become and stay immune. No creature eats dry, dead, devoid of harmful bacteria like flake food or pellets. They all need living pathogens. Totally simple and even my Grand Daughter knows it.

Now I have to go and freeze my Jeans.

I’ll update that quote and reference this info when I get to my computer. Thanks for the detailed explanation. In my case, my fish are fed LRS reef frenzy twice a day, nori, and spirolina flakes as a snack around lunch time. I believe the spirolina is a healthy addition the their diet but I wouldn’t feed it exclusively. A good percentage of the people I know feed LRS or DIY live foods ground up. It’s not like it’s unheard to feed LRS and DIY but I will bet that your group has helped to bolster the practice. The only people that I know that feed a diet of just fish flakes are people with freshwater tanks or a goldfish bowl

 

[Paul B]

Land Shark, there are plenty of people on here that just feed that. Look on the ich threads and read what the people are feeding. Many will say they feed "Quality" flakes and pellets. Whatever that means.
I myself also feed LRS food and fresh foods from a sea food market.

 

[Mark]

Define stress free so the rest of us *fools" can understand....

I didn't call you a fool, why the attitude? To answer your question:

I can't speak for Paul, Atoll, or Lasse, but my interpretation is that these folks are creating an environment where fish can make it through an outbreak and build up a response or resistance(slime coat increase or with antibodies). Food and a stable environment contribute to this. And I think a higher diversity tank(bacteria/micro-organsim) tends to be less favorable to the theronts and tomonts as well, which helps diminish their population density. Add to that other contributions to limiting outbreaks, like UV and perhaps ozone/peroxide, and you have a ich "managed" not eradicated system. Again to refer to Burgess(healthy fish that outlast the first outbreaks of theronts have higher immunity to subsequent exposure, and ich seems to fade out in systems over time):

"Burgess and Matthews (1995) demonstrated acquired immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. They found that 82% of fish that had been previously exposed to high levels of theronts were immune to a secondary exposure.
....

Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.

The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present."

I was an advocate of the fallow method and prophylactic use of CP in quarantine for new fish for ich prevention. I've done multiple fallow runs with my tank. It works, But the two most recent outbreaks I've had in the last 10 years were due to hitch-hiker tomonts coming in on snails and on rock/sand. So I'm starting to think the above method of riding it out and managing it makes more sense for most hobbyists. I do not think it is feasible for most hobbyists to keep inverts/rock/sand in a fallow system for 3 months before adding these things to their reef. We can't use hypo/copper/CP on inverts. So you're only option is to do a 3 month hold in a separate fish-less system.

@MnFish1, what do you suggest is the best approach to ich? I'm curious.

 

[Lasse]

I use a oxydator in my set up but - I do not do any own food. However - I´m only feeding with frozen wild food like adult artemia, adult mysida and copepods. There is a lot of pods in my refugium that spill over to my DT now and then. This aquarium has not ever got any dry food. I never ever rinse my food either. In my old aquaria (no diseases more than white spot once - died out with no treatment when I take away infected fish for TTM) - no oxydator but ozone now and then - dry food. In another aquarium - diseases free during 7 years - some fish die but no signs of any infection disease. No oxydator and dry food.

Reason for using oxydator now is to get rid of the yellowing compounds. If I take water from my refugium together with chaeto and stirr - I get yellow water but in the DT - not so much yellow. It works well and I do not need to run Ozone. I run my oxydator a little bit lower than Atoll and najer (2 catalyst and 6 %)

According to stress free environment - It is easy - try to have stable conditions, lot of hiding places, fishes that fit together and the same management all time. You can have random things happen (like variation in light - cloudy and so one but be consequent with it. Fish is able to adapt to stressing moments if they find that nothing bad happens but can also be that way that they remember when bad things happen. In one aquaria - I could not show the net in front of the front window - some of the fish hide directly. If you change water every Saturday keep doing that - do not change for change's sake. If you dance salsa in front of the aquarium every Sunday - do not change to Monday now and then - and so on.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I think that dipping corals is very different than fish. I don't think that a coral can gain immunity to flatworms, redbugs, etc.

You can chose your livestock in order to eat the things that some people call pest. However - I have not found any consumer of pyramid snails that not will consume my clams and other snails

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Kmsutows]

Dude am I the only one that thinks this has been answered already. The KEY for them is a stress free environment with high diversity and high quality food. They choose different means to get there but the theme is the same.

You're leaving out what I'd argue is just as important... a means of keeping parasite populations down. Each of these "immune" or "natural" tanks use something and that's where I have the issue with people being misled to think it's as simple as a health diet more or less.

By the way @MnFish1 PaulB did say he has his diatom filter running at this point and during his posts about his move many times it was perceived, by me at least, that it was very important to get that on his new tank. Again, diatom filters have been shown to filter out parasites if any are present.

 

[Lasse]

I do not think that diatom filter will be effective in the long run of the same reason why I do not think that UVC works 100 % in a single tank. To be killed (or trapped) - the parasite must pass through the filter before it can attach to a fish. However - I do think that both methods can be a helping hand in order to take away a mass attack.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

By the way - I lose fish now and then. My scooter blenny just disappeared last week after been in the aquaria for 2 years. What´s happen I do not know but there is no sign of any disease.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mark]

You're leaving out what I'd argue is just as important... a means of keeping parasite populations down. Each of these "immune" or "natural" tanks use something and that's where I have the issue with people being misled to think it's as simple as a health diet more or less.

By the way @MnFish1 PaulB did say he has his diatom filter running at this point and during his posts about his move many times it was perceived, by me at least, that it was very important to get that on his new tank. Again, diatom filters have been shown to filter out parasites if any are present.

I agree and I guess I would call that part of the stress free environment. I think UV/Ozone/Micron filtration is extremely helpful, especially during stress events or new fish introductions. But I also know plenty of reefkeepers that do the 'wait it out' approach with ich that do not use UV/Ozone/Micron filtration. Go figure.

 

[Kmsutows]

I do not think that diatom filter will be effective in the long run of the same reason why I do not think that UVC works 100 % in a single tank. To be killed (or trapped) - the parasite must pass through the filter before it can attach to a fish. However - I do think that both methods can be a helping hand in order to take away a mass attack.

Sincerely Lasse

And that is what I find to be key. Help manage numbers to a more realistic oceanic level so the fish can manage it on their own and build up their "immunity" against the few that are left

 

[Brew12]

I do not think that diatom filter will be effective in the long run of the same reason why I do not think that UVC works 100 % in a single tank. To be killed (or trapped) - the parasite must pass through the filter before it can attach to a fish. However - I do think that both methods can be a helping hand in order to take away a mass attack.

Sincerely Lasse

I can't help but think that a healthy population of soft and LPS corals would be more effective at removing free swimming parasites than a diatom or UVC filter.

 

[Land Shark]

Land Shark, there are plenty of people on here that just feed that. Look on the ich threads and read what the people are feeding. Many will say they feed "Quality" flakes and pellets. Whatever that means.
I myself also feed LRS food and fresh foods from a sea food market.

I guess when you say "plenty of people on here that just feed that (flakes/pellets)", you mean a lot of people with problems are feeding "just flakes and pellets" all the time and those are the same people that tend to have sick fish more often. I get the correlation you are driving at. So even if 90% of the people on here are feeding LRS and DIY, its the 10% that are crowding up the disease forum.

 

[Mark]

And that is what I find to be key. Help manage numbers to a more realistic oceanic level so the fish can manage it on their own and build up their "immunity" against the few that are left

No disagreement there. Getting your fish through a few outbreaks to build up their resistance would have a higher success rate if the outbreaks are at a lower density of free swimming theronts. A simple 15 micron pleated filter would do this easily during outbreaks. No diatomaceous earth is necessary, since theronts are 25-60 microns. I would argue it may be more effective than UV as well, since you can pump a lot of turnover through a pleated filter. For UV to be effective, you need a long dwell time(slow flow rate).

IMO, a $50 magnum in-tank filter with a pleated cartridge would make a good dent in free swimming theronts and very cost effective. Place it on near the bottom of the tank. Would be a good thing to have on hand during an outbreak or during new fish additions.

 

[Brew12]

IMO, a $50 magnum in-tank filter with a pleated cartridge would make a good dent in free swimming theronts and very cost effective. Place it on near the bottom of the tank. Would be a good thing to have on hand during an outbreak or during new fish additions.

I have one of these and love it. They even have instructions on how to turn it into a diatom filter. It's been a long time since I've done it, but if I remember correctly you run it in a bucket of water and add 2 teaspoons (but might be tablespoons) of diatomaceous earth.

 

[Lasse]

I can't help but think that a healthy population of soft and LPS corals would be more effective at removing free swimming parasites than a diatom or UVC filter.

Agree

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Kmsutows]

I can't help but think that a healthy population of soft and LPS corals would be more effective at removing free swimming parasites than a diatom or UVC filter.

And what is your rationale for this? Diatom and UV(obviously when sized correctly) have been shown to remove/kill parasites. Hence why UV is used commercially

 

[mta_morrow]

Agree

Sincerely Lasse

Will you please explain to me how LPS and soft corals would help with this?

Do they consume?

Thanks

Mike

 

[Gareth elliott]

I also wonder if there is a correlation between how many feedings a day and occurrence of disease in a tank.

As mentioned several times above, fish have very short digestive systems.
Even if feeding nutritious foods, but only once a day. Your fish are not receiving all of their required nutrients.

That some form of multiple feedings a day should be attempted. Autofeeders, pod replenishment, brine shrimp hatchery, etc.

 

[Kmsutows]

I guess when you say "plenty of people on here that just feed that (flakes/pellets)", you mean a lot of people with problems are feeding "just flakes and pellets" all the time and those are the same people that tend to have sick fish more often. I get the correlation you are driving at. So even if 90% of the people on here are feeding LRS and DIY, its the 10% that are crowding up the disease forum.

Additionally, perhaps it is also an accurate assumption those who feed dried foods are also quite novice and therefore don't have a very good understanding of saltwater fish husbandry altogether so that is why they end up in the disease fish forum. Just a thought. I could be totally off base but I feel the more people know/longer in the hobby they tend to feed frozen foods. Again, I could be totally off