It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Gareth elliott]

Not fish related but i also have had to deal with parasites in my other hobby, beekeeping.

Previously I had used different chemicals in the fall after harvest to fight an introduced mite from asia, vorroa, a leading contributor to colony collapse. Density of mite populations during sampling determined if used.

This year I went the other direction of science and ordered artificially inseminated queens with proven Vorroa Sensitive Hygiene(VSH) behavior from South Carolina. In short the bees born clean each other better, and actively remove any infected brood. Have not seen live mites in any of my samples taken this year.

For other pests I sprayed my entire yard in nematodes to eat small hive beetle larvae. Have not seen any of these this year either.

 

[Brew12]

What would you base that on? Just curious? A vortex XL filters 400 gPH. My understanding is that most people that use UV for parasite control use much higher dosages than recommended for a given sized tank - I believe Gweeds does this.

It's just a gut feel. I don't know if it would be true in my tank, but I don't have much in the way of softies/LPS. But, 400 gph isn't much compared to flow in our tanks and most of our filtration systems take water from the top of the tank where parasite numbers should be the lowest.

 

[Lasse]

When the 'average person' buys a new fish how can he/she be assured that if they 'drop a fish into the tank' that it will not be exposed to parasites to which they have not yet been exposed?
How do you chose your livestock so that whatever fish you add to your tank will not be harmed by the parasites that are inside it?
Once more tank raised fish are sold (which have never been exposed to parasites), how will these fish fare in a tank like yours? How would you introduce them?

IMO - this is a non question and mostly a theoretical problem. I have maybe seen this once and it was with a some threadfin cardinal (Zoramia leptacantha) that was introduced to my DT. A very delicate species to handle in long transports. Nowadays I try to place newcomers in my refugium for a week or two and with that method I have succeeded with adding 5 more of this species. Because the risk of stress if you introduce a fish directly to your DT - you can use your refugium an extra aquarium connected to your main system and put the newcomers in there.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

It's just a gut feel. I don't know if it would be true in my tank, but I don't have much in the way of softies/LPS. But, 400 gph isn't much compared to flow in our tanks and most of our filtration systems take water from the top of the tank where parasite numbers should be the lowest.

Please visit my build thread and look at one of my videos. Do anyone really think that a parasite larvae will survive long time among all of these hungry mouths? Biological diversity include a diverse coral population too - not the monoculture of the coloured sticks

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

not the monoculture of the coloured sticks

Um... don't you mean coloured pins?

 

[Mark]

I know - I said the key for 'Them'. I think the key is some sort of parasite decreasing method - that allows them to slowly die off.

Yes definitely, a key for many tanks is parasite density reduction with sterilization(uv/ozone), mechanical removal(micron filter), coral predators. But reduction in host availability puts a damper on the lifecycle of ich as well. That "immunity" over time means less parasites over time as well. I don't think there is just one key here, more of a synergistic effect.

If you read my posts here and in other threads, I not only have quoted those articles but have stated multiple times here that fish exposed to CI and survive become immune and also that in older aquariums CI and possibly velvet can die off. (Thus explaining the success of Paul B and others - i.e. perhaps there is no CI in their tanks). So I'm not sure of your point.

Firstly - I do not often add new things to my aquarium. If I do its only from a 'reputable' source (LFS) - and only if the fish are living in a 'reef tank' without copper, etc or medications and I can observe their health for at least a couple weeks. I bought all of my live rock at one time - and just because of the risk of cycling, I wouldn't add live rock to an established tank.
Secondly - I do not quarantine.
Thirdly - I feed mostly flake foods - with LRS occasionally - once/day
Forth - I used to use Ozone I do not anymore - due to various difficulties

I have not had a CI outbreak. Maybe I have an 'immune reef' as well... If I Had a CI outbreak - I would remove the fish and treat them appropriately and leave the tank fallow.

So to summarize, you don't quarantine your fish or corals. You pick fish that "appear" disease free. And if you get a snail or coral with rock base that brings in dormant tomonts, you would go fallow for 3 months each time... Correct? That was me for last 20 years, except I did quarantine my fish. Going forward, I don't feel like trying to keep a tank ich free when both of my last CI infections were from tomonts hitch-hiking in on substrates like inverts and rock/sand.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes definitely, a key for many tanks is parasite density reduction with sterilization(uv/ozone), mechanical removal(micron filter), coral predators. But reduction in host availability puts a damper on the lifecycle of ich as well. That "immunity" over time means less parasites over time as well. I don't think there is just one key here, more of a synergistic effect. So to summarize, you don't quarantine your fish or corals. You pick fish that "appear" disease free. And if you get a snail or coral with rock base that brings in dormant tomonts, you would go fallow for 3 months each time... Correct? That was me for last 20 years, except I did quarantine my fish. Going forward, I don't feel like trying to keep a tank ich free when both of my last CI infections were from tomonts hitch-hiking in on substrates like inverts and rock/sand.

Right. But - if coral that are placed in a tank with 'no fish' it is basically the same as 'going fallow' (isn't it)? If the fish bought are in a copper free tank, and they do not have any outward sign of disease, even if CI is present, the fish is likely immune - so its not a problem (unless the strain is so different).

I guess I wonder what you do about velvet though.

 

[MnFish1]

IMO - this is a non question and mostly a theoretical problem. I have maybe seen this once and it was with a some threadfin cardinal (Zoramia leptacantha) that was introduced to my DT. A very delicate species to handle in long transports. Nowadays I try to place newcomers in my refugium for a week or two and with that method I have succeeded with adding 5 more of this species. Because the risk of stress if you introduce a fish directly to your DT - you can use your refugium an extra aquarium connected to your main system and put the newcomers in there.

Sincerely Lasse

Perhaps - but its again a contradiction with what Paul said in his paragraph:

In this thread this has always been mis quoted. I am saying that Sterile fish (by that I mean fish that have not encountered harmful pathogens) will die in the presence of pathogens. They have to as they have no immunity to them that the fish make BY BEING EXPOSED TO THEM. Fish don't magically become immune and if Quarantined (like I said with an extended period of no living pathogens) they will not have immunity to anything.

 

[atoll]

What do you do in cases where you do see signs of parasites during your visual inspection?

Only happened once or twice but a stiff brush with an old toothbrush and a dip seems to sort them

 

[MnFish1]

It is hard (and not beneficial) to post one sentence of a paragraph because people will get the wrong Idea. For instance I did say that Quarantined fish will not be in great health and will probably die. But that was an answer to the question, "What would happen if you put a quarantined fish into a tank infected with pathogens" (not the exact words) I do feel that quarantined fish will never be in great health as they are missing their immunity. But I am talking about quarantining as "never feeding the fish live bacteria or parasites." Not just observing them in a separate tank for a week or two.

In this thread this has always been mis quoted. I am saying that Sterile fish (by that I mean fish that have not encountered harmful pathogens) will die in the presence of pathogens. They have to as they have no immunity to them that the fish make BY BEING EXPOSED TO THEM. Fish don't magically become immune and if Quarantined (like I said with an extended period of no living pathogens) they will not have immunity to anything.

The similarity the three or four of us have running immune tanks is that we all feed living bacteria. Atoll makes food, Lasse adds live snails, I feed live food and mud and I forgot what Gweeds does but I am sure it involves some sort of live bacteria.

This is an extremely simple concept but for some reason many people make it very complicated. Creatures have been living on Earth for millions of years by eating foods with live bacteria in them so their bodies can become and stay immune. No creature eats dry, dead, devoid of harmful bacteria like flake food or pellets. They all need living pathogens. Totally simple and even my Grand Daughter knows it.

Now I have to go and freeze my Jeans.

I would humbly suggest that your definition of the word 'quarantine' above: May be causing some of the problem people have understanding your methods and rationale - because I dont think many people consider quarantine to mean what you do: But I am talking about quarantining as "never feeding the fish live bacteria or parasites." Not just observing them in a separate tank for a week or two.

I would also humbly suggest that eating a pathogen does not necessarily produce immunity to that pathogen. The animal needs to be infected with a pathogen to become immune (which is why in general vaccines are injected, not eaten). And I would humbly suggest as well - that in order to cause an immune response, the bacteria or pathogen does not need to be 'living' - as in the many vaccines that we all get that are made from either toxins or dead parts of organisms. Lastly, there is bacteria in every mouthful of water a fish breaths. There is bacteria every time a fish picks on a rock. Tanks are not 'sterile'.

 

[jasonrusso]

Krill is very nutritious, it also contains a lot of pigement compounds that assist in fish gaining their full colors.

Krill is what makes of the bulk of filter feeding whales’ diets.

I think if you can get them live, they are much more nutritious.

 

[jasonrusso]

Will tangs eat these ?

My tangs only eat small krill pieces.

 

[Mark]

Right. But - if coral that are plac ed in a tank with 'no fish' it is basically the same as 'going fallow' (isn't it)? If the fish bought are in a copper free tank, and they do not have any outward sign of disease, even if CI is present, the fish is likely immune - so its not a problem (unless the strain is so different).

I guess I wonder what you do about velvet though.

Right, I think the only way to truly prevent CI in a reef would be to prophylactically treat the fish and keep any invert/algae/plants/rock/sand acquisitions in a fishless holding tank for 3 months. I just don't feel like doing that. For me, the path forward is:

1) I will still quarantine my fish, because there's more to worry about than just CI. I have a pretty mature quarantine tank, so I feel it is relatively stress free. I can treat for flukes, worms, etc and also fatten the fish up if I need to. Sometimes getting a fish trained to eat frozen and dry food can mean feeding lots which would put a lot of nutrient load on your reef. So a quarantine is nice for this as well. I can make big water changes on my 40 gallon q-tank easily. Therefore I can feed heavy.

2) Run a UV appropriately to keep parasite density in check on the reef. While I think a micron filter is more effective(higher turnover), I think running a UV is easier long term. I have a micron pleated filter on hand if needed for outbreaks as well, and will run it whenever I add a new fish.

3) Increase micro-0rganism diversity in the tank. I'm not sure how much this will make a difference, but there are other reasons for doing it as well.

4) Feed lots and let the fish build up a resistance over time. New fish will have to do same, but hopefully will tolerate the stress events ok with the UV in place.

 

[MnFish1]

Right, I think the only way to truly prevent CI in a reef would be to prophylactically treat the fish and keep any invert/algae/plants/rock/sand acquisitions in a fishless holding tank for 3 months. I just don't feel like doing that.

Yeah - The fish store from which I purchase my coral for the most part keeps their inverts in 'fish free tanks' and they are sourced from 'fish free tanks' so I haven't had a problem (yet) - but I try to add several corals at once and just let them grow - I haven't added anything to my tank for probably 10 months.

 

[Subsea]

I'd suggest reading a little closer then. How is gut bacteria processing algae to directly reduce parasite numbers not related to this discussion?

"Among the dietary additives important for sea lice control are glucosinolates, When these plant derived-phytochemicals are metabolised by fish intestinal microbiota to isthiocynates, they can generate anti-inflammatory responses and promote antioxidant status and detoxification, but they may also promote pro-inflammatory responses in species such as mice. Diets containing glucosinolates were shown to reduce sea lice burden by up to 25% in comparison to control diets (Jodaa Holm et al., 2016)."



I think this says it all. Do you really have interest in learning? You aren't going to take the time to read the science behind it, and you don't accept anecdotal evidence. What is it you would accept then?

Earlier, I struggled to find a current reference to show that bacteria were indeed killed by freezing. Thank you for this information which is post #1221 on this thread.

 

[Lasse]

Um... don't you mean coloured pins?

Yea but when pins grow - they maybe be sticks

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

(which is why in general vaccines are injected, not eaten)

However - there is vaccine developed for fish that they take a bath in because it could be some problems with injecting 10 000 young salmons as an example

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Right, I think the only way to truly prevent CI in a reef would be to prophylactically treat the fish and keep any invert/algae/plants/rock/sand acquisitions in a fishless holding tank for 3 months. I just don't feel like doing that. For me, the path forward is:

1) I will still quarantine my fish, because there's more to worry about than just CI. I have a pretty mature quarantine tank, so I feel it is relatively stress free. I can treat for flukes, worms, etc and also fatten the fish up if I need to. Sometimes getting a fish trained to eat frozen and dry food can mean feeding lots which would put a lot of nutrient load on your reef. So a quarantine is nice for this as well. I can make big water changes on my 40 gallon q-tank easily. Therefore I can feed heavy.

2) Run a UV appropriately to keep parasite density in check on the reef. While I think a micron filter is more effective(higher turnover), I think running a UV is easier long term. I have a micron pleated filter on hand if needed for outbreaks as well, and will run it whenever I add a new fish.

3) Increase micro-0rganism diversity in the tank. I'm not sure how much this will make a difference, but there are other reasons for doing it as well.

4) Feed lots and let the fish build up a resistance over time. New fish will have to do same, but hopefully will tolerate the stress events ok with the UV in place.

One suggestion more. If you start to do your WC for the QT tank with some water from your DT two to three weeks prior introduction of the fishes to your DT you will slowly adapt your newcomers to the microbial life of your DT and prevent the thing that worry MinFish1

Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

I think that dipping corals is very different than fish. I don't think that a coral can gain immunity to flatworms, redbugs, etc.

Of course not, that is why I never suggested such.

 

[atoll]

I also wonder if there is a correlation between how many feedings a day and occurrence of disease in a tank.

As mentioned several times above, fish have very short digestive systems.
Even if feeding nutritious foods, but only once a day. Your fish are not receiving all of their required nutrients.

That some form of multiple feedings a day should be attempted. Autofeeders, pod replenishment, brine shrimp hatchery, etc.

I feed a minimum of 3 times a day often 4 times. I also believe it is very important for the fishes health to fed as close to how our fish feed on the reef the majority of which are opportunist constant feeders feeding from the water column. Copy nature as close as is feasibly possible and you won't go far wrong.