It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Brew12]

And what is your rationale for this? Diatom and UV(obviously when sized correctly) have been shown to remove/kill parasites. Hence why UV is used commercially

In my mind, it is a matter of flow. To kill parasites they need high exposure to UV lighting which typically means low flow. Diatom filters are also typically designed to run with lower flow. The flow inside our reef tanks is very high and repeatedly circulates over the corals. Parasites are also looking for surfaces to attach and will move over corals to find a suitable place.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Will you please explain to me how LPS and soft corals would help with this?

Do they consume?

Thanks

Mike

All corals maintain their ancestral feeding method from jellyfish in some manner. And get at least some of their nutrients from capturing particles and zooplankton.

During free swimming stages of velvet and crypto these will be invariably included in that intake.

 

[mta_morrow]

All corals maintain their ancestral feeding method from jellyfish in some manner. And get at least some of their nutrients from capturing particles and zooplankton.

During free swimming stages of velvet and crypto these will be invariably included in that intake.

Thanks! Makes sense to me!

Appreciate the answer.

 

[Brew12]

All corals maintain their ancestral feeding method from jellyfish in some manner. And get at least some of their nutrients from capturing particles and zooplankton.

During free swimming stages of velvet and crypto these will be invariably included in that intake.

Agreed. And I believe that soft/LPS corals get more nutrients from particulate in the water than SPS corals do. Maybe some of those really shaggy SPS could hold their own....

 

[Kmsutows]

In my mind, it is a matter of flow. To kill parasites they need high exposure to UV lighting which typically means low flow. Diatom filters are also typically designed to run with lower flow. The flow inside our reef tanks is very high and repeatedly circulates over the corals. Parasites are also looking for surfaces to attach and will move over corals to find a suitable place.

This is why it is so important to have everyth poohing sized appropriately. However, given the size mesh of the filter and low flow I still feel that is far more contact time than a couple soft corals contact time. Think about how few polyps or tentacles are on a softy/Lps relatively speaking vs how much actual contact with a proper filter or UV. Youd need a tank dang near full to do anything at all if they even do in fact consume ich

 

[WVNed]

I have 8 different foods I feed on a random basis. frozen fish, squid, 4 kinds of cubes plus sinking pellets and flakes. Everything has to eat. I don't consider it feeding fish or corals. I am feeding the whole tank.

I cant help but feel those of us with no mechanical filtration on the tank support a more diverse and larger filter feeder population.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Excuse the bad picture need to clean my glass and its in the back of the tank lol. But paul keeps this or a very similar coral in his tank. Feeds very similar to a mushroom with mucous but with numerous hands to help grab whats in the water.

Given the size of his colonies and its feeding method i cant help but think it takes a large toll on any parasites he adds. And help keep the numbers lower.

 

[ZhiYung]

I don’t want to interupt this disputation, but are these krills ? Are they nutritious enough to be fed daily to my fish ? Because they are pretty cheap here in Vietnam and I can get a 100 gram of them with just 1 buck. We call them “ruốc biển”.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I don’t want to interupt this disputation, but are these krills ? Are they nutritious enough to be fed daily to my fish ? Because they are pretty cheap here in Vietnam and I can get a 100 gram of them with just 1 buck. We call them “ruốc biển”.

Krill is very nutritious, it also contains a lot of pigement compounds that assist in fish gaining their full colors.

Krill is what makes of the bulk of filter feeding whales’ diets.

 

[MnFish1]

I didn't call you a fool, why the attitude? To answer your question:

I can't speak for Paul, Atoll, or Lasse, but my interpretation is that these folks are creating an environment where fish can make it through an outbreak and build up a response or resistance(slime coat increase or with antibodies). Food and a stable environment contribute to this. And I think a higher diversity tank(bacteria/micro-organsim) tends to be less favorable to the theronts and tomonts as well, which helps diminish their population density. Add to that other contributions to limiting outbreaks, like UV and perhaps ozone/peroxide, and you have a ich "managed" not eradicated system. Again to refer to Burgess(healthy fish that outlast the first outbreaks of theronts have higher immunity to subsequent exposure, and ich seems to fade out in systems over time):

"Burgess and Matthews (1995) demonstrated acquired immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. They found that 82% of fish that had been previously exposed to high levels of theronts were immune to a secondary exposure.
....

Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.

The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present."

I was an advocate of the fallow method and prophylactic use of CP in quarantine for new fish for ich prevention. I've done multiple fallow runs with my tank. It works, But the two most recent outbreaks I've had in the last 10 years were due to hitch-hiker tomonts coming in on snails and on rock/sand. So I'm starting to think the above method of riding it out and managing it makes more sense for most hobbyists. I do not think it is feasible for most hobbyists to keep inverts/rock/sand in a fallow system for 3 months before adding these things to their reef. We can't use hypo/copper/CP on inverts. So you're only option is to do a 3 month hold in a separate fish-less system.

@MnFish1, what do you suggest is the best approach to ich? I'm curious.

If you read my posts here and in other threads, I not only have quoted those articles but have stated multiple times here that fish exposed to CI and survive become immune and also that in older aquariums CI and possibly velvet can die off. (Thus explaining the success of Paul B and others - i.e. perhaps there is no CI in their tanks). So I'm not sure of your point.

Firstly - I do not often add new things to my aquarium. If I do its only from a 'reputable' source (LFS) - and only if the fish are living in a 'reef tank' without copper, etc or medications and I can observe their health for at least a couple weeks. I bought all of my live rock at one time - and just because of the risk of cycling, I wouldn't add live rock to an established tank.
Secondly - I do not quarantine.
Thirdly - I feed mostly flake foods - with LRS occasionally - once/day
Forth - I used to use Ozone I do not anymore - due to various difficulties

I have not had a CI outbreak. Maybe I have an 'immune reef' as well... If I Had a CI outbreak - I would remove the fish and treat them appropriately and leave the tank fallow.

As to feeding - btw - I feed my discus that same flake food - they spawn regularly and have no disease.

As to the attitude - it probably has something to do with having to repeat the same answers over and over.

 

[Lasse]

I don’t want to interupt this disputation, but are these krills ? Are they nutritious enough to be fed daily to my fish ? Because they are pretty cheap here in Vietnam and I can get a 100 gram of them with just 1 buck. We call them “ruốc biển”.

They will work very well but you probably need to grain them. Grain the whole shrimp !

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ZhiYung]

Krill is very nutritious, it also contains a lot of pigement compounds that assist in fish gaining their full colors.

Krill is what makes of the bulk of filter feeding whales’ diets.

Will tangs eat these ?

 

[Lasse]

As to the attitude - it probably has something to do with having to repeat the same answers over and over.

Agree

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

You're leaving out what I'd argue is just as important... a means of keeping parasite populations down. Each of these "immune" or "natural" tanks use something and that's where I have the issue with people being misled to think it's as simple as a health diet more or less.

By the way @MnFish1 PaulB did say he has his diatom filter running at this point and during his posts about his move many times it was perceived, by me at least, that it was very important to get that on his new tank. Again, diatom filters have been shown to filter out parasites if any are present.

I know - I said the key for 'Them'. I think the key is some sort of parasite decreasing method - that allows them to slowly die off.

 

[Lasse]

Will tangs eat these ?

probably but you should feed most tangs with nori or other algae - and I suppose that your kitchen have plenty of that too

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Gareth elliott]

Will tangs eat these ?

I would not make this the primary diet of primarily herbivores, but fresh krill will make a great start to omnivore and carnivore diets.

 

[Brew12]

Will tangs eat these ?

Yes, especially younger ones. Young tangs need more meat in their diet than older ones who graze on algae more.

 

[MnFish1]

It is hard (and not beneficial) to post one sentence of a paragraph because people will get the wrong Idea. For instance I did say that Quarantined fish will not be in great health and will probably die. But that was an answer to the question, "What would happen if you put a quarantined fish into a tank infected with pathogens" (not the exact words) I do feel that quarantined fish will never be in great health as they are missing their immunity. But I am talking about quarantining as "never feeding the fish live bacteria or parasites." Not just observing them in a separate tank for a week or two.

In this thread this has always been mis quoted. I am saying that Sterile fish (by that I mean fish that have not encountered harmful pathogens) will die in the presence of pathogens. They have to as they have no immunity to them that the fish make BY BEING EXPOSED TO THEM. Fish don't magically become immune and if Quarantined (like I said with an extended period of no living pathogens) they will not have immunity to anything.

The similarity the three or four of us have running immune tanks is that we all feed living bacteria. Atoll makes food, Lasse adds live snails, I feed live food and mud and I forgot what Gweeds does but I am sure it involves some sort of live bacteria.

This is an extremely simple concept but for some reason many people make it very complicated. Creatures have been living on Earth for millions of years by eating foods with live bacteria in them so their bodies can become and stay immune. No creature eats dry, dead, devoid of harmful bacteria like flake food or pellets. They all need living pathogens. Totally simple and even my Grand Daughter knows it.

Now I have to go and freeze my Jeans.

OK Paul thanks for clarifying what you meant. You may want to edit your response because not all fish not exposed to parasites die - because if they did, there would be no 'immune fish'. The one way a fish can 'become immune' is to be exposed to the parasite.

I think its well known that a fish can be immune to 1 strain of CI and not to another. So - again I will ask you the questions again (which still haven't been answered)

When the 'average person' buys a new fish how can he/she be assured that if they 'drop a fish into the tank' that it will not be exposed to parasites to which they have not yet been exposed?
How do you chose your livestock so that whatever fish you add to your tank will not be harmed by the parasites that are inside it?
Once more tank raised fish are sold (which have never been exposed to parasites), how will these fish fare in a tank like yours? How would you introduce them?

 

[Lasse]

As mentioned several times above, fish have very short digestive systems.

Not complete true - carnivores yes - but omnivores and herbivores - no. Herbivores has often a very long intestinal system and for omnivores - it different between the species. I only feed once a day - and I have a pipefish. I have no real herbivores because the algae production in the DT is not large enough. However I would love to have a bunch of jester or hector gobies if I only could. In my experiences - they really need algae.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

I can't help but think that a healthy population of soft and LPS corals would be more effective at removing free swimming parasites than a diatom or UVC filter.

What would you base that on? Just curious? A vortex XL filters 400 gPH. My understanding is that most people that use UV for parasite control use much higher dosages than recommended for a given sized tank - I believe Gweeds does this.