It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1
I read the link you posted. I think that this link that documents specific bacteria response to freezing temperatures is more scientific with its terms. https://www.quora.com/Microbiology-...a-or-merely-slow-down-their-reproduction-rate

I have no doubt that you know how science works - one paper says one thing - another says the opposite. Im hesitant to even respond to a person quoting from studies from 1918 and 1938. And these are just responses from 'people' giving their opinions anyway - as compared to a scholarly reading. There is nothing that I saw in the 'questions and answers' you posted that suggests that good bacteria are killed - and bad bacteria survive.

There was an interesting link on "myvagina" about freezing probiotics - but I decided not to quote it (and im not kidding). Instead here is a study on frozen Kefir from 2015.

https://digitalcommons.lsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4318&context=gradschool_theses

Though there is some decrease in bacteria - freezing was considered a viable/Improved method of storing kefir.

 

[Subsea]

Something more recent from Feb 2018. Inquiring minds want to learn.

https://phys.org/news/2018-02-salmonella-die-temperatures.html

 

[MnFish1]

Something more recent from Feb 2018. Inquiring minds want to learn.

https://phys.org/news/2018-02-salmonella-die-temperatures.html

Unless you posted the wrong link - or I can't read - there is nothing in this article talking about freezing (I.e. the results of the study). In any case - Salmonella is a pathogen - and you stated that freezing killed 'good bacteria' not 'bad bacteria - ie pathogens'. So either way im not sure what you're getting at - Im not trying to be offensive but on my browser there is nothing said here about freezing good bacteria vs freezing bad bacteria...

 

[MnFish1]

For @Subsea
"Does frozen yogurt contain live and active cultures? Frozen yogurt is a non-standardized food and, therefore, is not subject to Federal composition standards, as is the case for �yogurt.� ........ This frozen yogurt base mix can then be blended with fruit or other ingredients and then frozen. The freezing process does not kill any significant amount of the cultures. in fact, during the freezing process the cultures go into a dormant state, but when eaten and returned to a warm temperature within the body, they again become active and are capable of providing all the benefits of cultures in a refrigerated yogurt product."

Another article: Moral of the story? If you are using kefir or other probiotics, it’s best not to freeze them, but if you do, some strains will survive better than others.

Another article: Kefir ice cream, however would work. Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilis as well as other live cultures such as L. acidophilus enter a dormant state during freezing, returning to an active state when they come in contact with body heat after ingestion.

A comment from another article: The "friendly" bacteria would survive the freezing process; however you might find that levels of undesirable bacteria would also survive and as they would be at relatively high levels before freezing (if the product was close to its expiry date) and would have more time to reproduce on defrosting you might find the product isnt so great from a food safety point of view- i.e. might give you an upset stomach. Freezing dosnt kill bacteria it just stops it reproducing whilst the product is frozen.

From another article: Frozen yogurt is just as healthy as refrigerated yogurt. In fact, the University of Michigan Health System explains that the probiotics within yogurt are able to survive the freezing process without altering the health benefits. Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilis as well as any added live cultures such as L. acidophilus enter a dormant state during freezing, returning to an active state when they come in contact with body heat after ingestion.

These quotes suggest that what you say is not correct. You may be, you may not be. I dont know - im not going to review the scientific literature. Needless to say - there is no evidence that what you said in a prior post is factual: Freezing kills most good bacteria and as you have pointed out, pathagions survive.

And I never said pathogens survive freezing in preference to 'good bacteria'.

BTW - I didnt' self-select articles that supported what I said - or criticized you - I just quoted from the first several articles using the search term: does freezing kill lactobacillus. or does freezing kill probiotics...

 

[Subsea]

Unless you posted the wrong link - or I can't read - there is nothing in this article talking about freezing (I.e. the results of the study). In any case - Salmonella is a pathogen - and you stated that freezing killed 'good bacteria' not 'bad bacteria - ie pathogens'. So either way im not sure what you're getting at - Im not trying to be offensive but on my browser there is nothing said here about freezing good bacteria vs freezing bad bacteria...

To get to that part of paper requires academia membership, which I don’t have. Nevertheless, bacteria are killed by freezing. In the first paper I cited, the names of the bacteria were written down, but you choose to ignore by citing test dates. If you had cited other scientific studies with specific bacteria populations before and after freezing, I would take you more serious.

 

[Gareth elliott]

http://www.businessinsider.com/does-freezing-your-jeans-kill-bacteria-2014-5
I got a slight chuckle out of this.

But @atoll great write up on your tank.

 

[MnFish1]

To get to that part of paper requires academia membership, which I don’t have. Nevertheless, bacteria are killed by freezing. In the first paper I cited, the names of the bacteria were written down, but you choose to ignore by citing test dates. If you had cited other scientific studies with specific bacteria populations before and after freezing, I would take you more serious.

in 1918 and 1938 both freezing and bacterial cultures were not anywhere what they are today. I didnt ignore them at all. And if you had not sited 'quota.com' where someone asked if freezing kills bacteria (because the were trying to kill bacteria) I would take you more seriously. Additionally if the people on quora.com that answered the questions didnt cite studies from 1919, 1938 and 1961 - I would have taken you more seriously..

Additionally, again - the first paper you quoted - says nothing about the topic we're discussing. If you couldn't get to that part - neither could I - so how could you know what it said? How could I argue against it. Btw - I did go to pubmed - and research the authors to try to find the original paper and most of the research is about freezing silicons and nickel based compounds. Certainly not microbiology. Again - perhaps you posted the wrong link. It seems to me you're just trying to play a game frankly.

 

[MnFish1]

http://www.businessinsider.com/does-freezing-your-jeans-kill-bacteria-2014-5
I got a slight chuckle out of this.

But @atoll great write up on your tank.

LOL yes - I didnt quote that one. I did quote the one from 'myvagina.com' - but I wont tell you which one lol (In fact it was the one that says freezing kefir is not optimal lol)

 

[Land Shark]

Here is the latest tally. New entries in bold.

Gweeds1980's, Atol's, Paul B's, and Lasse's explanations of how they keep systems that are disease free but not free of pathogens (in their own words)


- Atypical Filtration... Gweeds' UV, Paul’s Ozone Generator, Atoll’s Oxidator, Lasse's Oxidator

1. Gweeds1980 (the OP): "UV - proper UV, not shoddy standard UV. Massively overrated for the size tank and massively underpowered by the pump (I have a unit good for a 15000 litre pond and it's fed by a 1500lph pump) this is important for reducing parasite numbers and thus gives a more natural parasite vs fish balance." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818
   
2. Atoll: "I firmly believe the use of Oxydator’s in my aquarium’s and my home-made foods over the last 25 years have been a valuable, and necessary, aid in helping to prevent serious outbreaks of the likes of white spot and velvet disease’s. Good food, well fed fish and oxygenated clean water all adding to my success over the years in keeping marines." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-63#post-4915992
3. Atol: "I do believe my Oxydators play a part." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-54#post-4907825
4. Paul B: "I have been using ozone 24/7 in my glass reef for about 35 or 40 years and I would not stop." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ozone-planning-and-questions.380127/#post-4640249
5. Lasse: "I do run an oxydator but mostly because I want to take away yellowing substances." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-60#post-4913433

- Stress Management...

1. Paul B: "keep it healthy and a stress free environment is very important" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-13#post-4000987
2. atoll: "add to the above the environment you created and comparable species." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4908260
3. Gweeds1980: A natural tank (or as natural as it's possible to make an 8ft glass box!) This results in more available food (algae, pods etc) and a higher biodiversity, thus lower stress and more natural behaviour. Stress lowers the immune response. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818
4. Lasse: "We also try to have as stress free environment as possible – knowing that more than 90 % of fish diseases are stress related" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-60#post-4913433

- Feeding regimen...

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Fresh or freshly frozen WHOLE seafood" and "Fresh or freshly frozen seaweed (from the sea, not the store)" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
2. Gweeds1980: High levels of DHA in the diet - this is a known potent anti-parasitic and fish accumulate this in their subcutaneous fatty layer to resist parasitic infection. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818
3. Gweeds1980: Feeding a diet which includes whole marine animals. This provides a balanced diet - more akin to a natural diet. There are likely substances that are beneficial that we don't even know about or can test for. Also, consuming parasites which may be present on those animals allows the consuming fishes immune system to be exposed to the chemical markers of that pathogen and thus allows the adaptive immune system to produce antigens specific to that pathogen. In the event of infection by that same pathogen, the immune response will be more robust. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818

- Live bacteria, live mud, snails, etc. from coastline

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Bacterial biodiversity - as much as possible" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
2. Gweeds1980 (OP): "Parasites" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-42#post-4642672
3. Gweeds1980 (OP): "High bacterial biodiversity - regardless of parasites, a high bacterial biodiversity means there is competition at a microscopic level. This means that potentially harmful bacteria are less likely to develop to a level that would cause infection. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-59#post-4912818
4. Lasse: "as diverse bacteria population as possible" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-60#post-4913433
5. Lasse: I do not use mud or thing collected from the coast of Sweden (However I do use snails from our west coast) https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-60#post-4913433

- QT observation practices

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): Practices QT observation and mediation where applicable.
2. atoll: need to verify.
3. Paul B: "Fish that were quarantined will not be in great health and will probably die" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907935
4. Lasse: "No but I use to place my newcomers in my refugium for a week or two". "I normally do not add fish with symptoms of disease" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-60#post-4913570
5. Lasse: "Mostly - I do not put my new fishes into the DT directly because of the stress factor. I normally put them in my refugium for 1 to 2 weeks. But it is the same system - no QT and I can´t observe very well there but they get use of my water and will not be attacked of other inhabitants. I have no evidence for this but I believe that the smell of an individual has big importance if the rest of the fishes will see the newcomer as an intruder or not." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-62#post-4914949

- Prophylactic medication practices while in QT observation

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): If appropriate, yes
2. atoll: Never
3. Paul B: Never
4. Lasse: "No way - not even if I should QT (that I do not)" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-60#post-4913570

- Thoughts and experiences accidentally introducing invertebrate pests like red bugs, AEFW, nudibranchs or pyramid snails?

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): Feedback requested
2. atoll: Feedback requested
3. Paul B: Feedback requested
4. Lasse: "I have chosen fish with this in my mind. However - pyramid snails are a hard nut to crack biologically" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-60#post-4913586

- Uses a holistic approach that incorporates biological, ecological and atypical filtration methods. Low stress is also a common theme. You can't just do some of these things and expect good results, you have to do it all and it takes time.

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): Agreed
2. Atoll: Agreed
3. Paul B: Agreed
4. Lasse: Agreed

- Feedback from other R2R members:
Kmsutows: UV when used correctly can be efficient enough to reduce parasite numbers to be tolerable (hence why large fisheries and some stores/aquariums use them) as well as diatom filtering is prevent to reduce numbers of parasites.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4908242

MnFish1: Main point: I think the main reason that people with so-called 'Immune tanks' succeed is an external method of parasite number reduction whether its UV/Ozone/Oxydators or ultrafiltration.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907952

MnFish1: "There is also the fact that fish can be intermittently 'Infected' at very low levels without any evidence of disease. This keeps the disease 'In the tank' even though you can't see it. There is also a great deal of evidence that if you decrease the numbers of parasites with UV/Ozone/microfiltration, that the levels of parasites can drop to the point that they can no longer maintain a population." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-62#post-4915138

Mark: "I think the word immunity is misleading when dealing with a complex parasite versus a virus or bacteria. Someone mentioned the dog flea argument, and I agree. You can't really develop an immunity to a parasite." https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-61#post-4913954

 

[MnFish1]

For @Subsea (and anyone else interested in freezing bacteria - specifically probiotics):

Arora Neha et al. IRJP 2012, 3 (1). (Freeze–thawing: The damages made to cell membranes freezing probiotics is detrimental to survival, and also can make the cells more vulnerable to environmental stresses. To prevent or at least mitigate cell injury, protectants are usually added to cultures to be frozen or dried. Once frozen, probiotics can survive well over long shelf lives in products such as frozen yogurts and ice-cream. Using alternative methods of freezing, such as slow-cooling rates or pre-freezing stress, can significantly improve cell survival. Repeated freeze–thawing cycles are highly detrimental to cell survival and should be avoided.


J Ind Microbiol Biotechnol. 2006 Sep;33(9):796-800. Epub 2006 Apr 26.

A mixture of human-derived probiotic strains of Lactobacillus acidophilus, L. agilis and L. rhamnosus was used as a probiotic culture in ice cream manufacture. Viability and survival of these probiotic cultures were investigated in two different ice cream formulations. Ice cream with sucrose and ice cream with aspartame were prepared and each of these was divided into two subgroups: one with direct addition of the probiotic culture and one with milk fermented by the same probiotic culture. Ice cream samples were stored at -20 degrees C for 6 months and the survival rate of cultures were determined monthly. Probiotic cultures underwent tests for resistance to bile salts, antibiotics, acidic conditions; they were found to be highly resistant to such challenges. Chemical analysis of ice cream samples, such as determination of acidity, pH and solid matter, was also performed. The probiotic cultures remained unchanged in ice cream stored for up to 6 months regardless of the sweeteners used. Using probiotic cultures in ice cream mixes did not alter the characteristics of the product.

J Dairy Sci. 1992 Jun;75(6):1415-22.

Probiotic ice cream was made by fermenting a standard ice cream mix with Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium bifidum cultures and then freezing the mix in a batch freezer. Survival of the L. acidophilus and B. bifidum, as well as beta-galactosidase activity, was monitored during 17 wk of frozen storage at -29 degrees C. After freezing of the fermented mix, bacterial counts were 1.5 x 10(8) cfu/ml for L. acidophilus and 2.5 x 10(8) cfu/ml for B. bifidum. Seventeen weeks after freezing, these counts had decreased to 4 x 10(6) and 1 x 10(7) cfu/ml, respectively. During the same period, beta-galactosidase activity decreased from 1800 to 1300 units/ml. Probiotic ice cream was prepared at pH 5.0, 5.5, and 6.0 to determine consumer preferences and was compared with standard Utah StateUniversity "Aggie" ice cream. All samples were strawberry-flavored and were evaluated by 88 judges. The preferred pH of probiotic ice cream, based on overall acceptance, was pH 5.5. We demonstrated that probiotic ice cream is a suitable vehicle for delivering beneficial microorganisms such as L. acidophilus and B. bifidum to consumers. The bacteria can be grown to high numbers in ice cream mix and remain viable during frozen storage.

Note with these articles I presented some that supported what you said (that freezing kills some of the bacteria). But the doubling time of for example lactobacillus ("Lactobacilli have a generation time ranging from 25 to several hundred minutes) lets pretend that its an 2 hours. at the temperature of the aquarium. In 24 hours the counts (in the last study - where there was a reduction) would have gone from 4x 10^6 to 1.6 x 10^10 in 24 hours. If the generation time was 1 hour it would go from 4x 10^6 to 6.7 x 10^13 - so I dont think even with the decreases noted in this study that there would be any shortage of probiotics in a frozen food.

 

[MnFish1]

From Landshark:
Practices using a biological/ecological/mechanical holistic approach. Meaning, you can't just some of these things and expect good results. You have to do it all and it takes time.

1. Gweeds1980 (OP): Agreed
2. Atoll: Agreed
3. Paul B: Agreed
4. Lasse: Agreed

I think you should amend this - since all of them must disagree with this point (because not all of them are doing all of the things mentioned). Before the flame wars start - it happens to be true. According to Gweeds - he uses high powered UV (much higher than usually required by a tank his size) - Paul does not use 'anything now (his ozone has been off for a month). Atoll uses an oxydator as does lasse - but neither are sure that they have a bactericidal effect.

Some quarantine (like Gweeds reverse quarantine system), some use no quarantine (Paul) some put the fish in the refugium (Lasse). I dont remember what atoll does (sorry)

All feed different foods - and there is no guarantee that any of the foods contain similar concentrations or types of bacteria or viruses or parasites (if at all).

There are other differences as well - but I think this alone tells the story

And it goes to the crux of my comments - so everyone pay attention lol. WHAT do they think the KEY is to their OBVIOUS SUCCESS. Because it can't be the answer they gave above (everything must be done). Perhaps they dont know - but this is the question. @Landshark - this is a great way to summarize everything

 

[Mark]

[QUOTE="MnFish1]And it goes to the crux of my comments - so everyone pay attention lol. WHAT do they think the KEY is to their OBVIOUS SUCCESS. Because it can't be the answer they gave above (everything must be done). Perhaps they dont know - but this is the question. @Landshark - this is a great way to summarize everything[/QUOTE]

Dude am I the only one that thinks this has been answered already. The KEY for them is a stress free environment with high diversity and high quality food. They choose different means to get there but the theme is the same.

 

[Land Shark]

@Gweeds1980, @atoll, @Paul B, Would you mind providing your thoughts on the question below? Lasse has already provided input (thanks Lasse). It was asked by another R2R member earlier today and I believe he was hoping for each of your opinions on this topic. This is educational and appreciated.

- Thoughts and experiences accidentally introducing invertebrate pests like red bugs, AEFW, nudibranchs or pyramid snails?

1. Gweeds1980 (OP):
2. Atoll:
3. Paul B:
4. Lasse: "I have chosen fish with this in my mind. However - pyramid snails are a hard nut to crack biologically" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-60#post-4913586

 

[MnFish1]

[QUOTE="MnFish1]And it goes to the crux of my comments - so everyone pay attention lol. WHAT do they think the KEY is to their OBVIOUS SUCCESS. Because it can't be the answer they gave above (everything must be done). Perhaps they dont know - but this is the question. @Landshark - this is a great way to summarize everything

Dude am I the only one that thinks this has been answered already. The KEY for them is a stress free environment with high diversity and high quality food. They choose different means to get there but the theme is the same.[/QUOTE]
Define stress free so the rest of us *fools" can understand....

 

[MnFish1]

[QUOTE="MnFish1]And it goes to the crux of my comments - so everyone pay attention lol. WHAT do they think the KEY is to their OBVIOUS SUCCESS. Because it can't be the answer they gave above (everything must be done). Perhaps they dont know - but this is the question. @Landshark - this is a great way to summarize everything

Dude am I the only one that thinks this has been answered already. The KEY for them is a stress free environment with high diversity and high quality food. They choose different means to get there but the theme is the same.[/QUOTE]

you might be - because again(and perhaps you haven't read) - no offense - there is a lot to read - what does a stress free environment mean - most aquarists feed high quality food (god willing) So Mark the key is food... Seemingly not.

 

[atoll]

1/ I don't think most marine aquarists feed "high quality foods" l make my own mostly sourced from the very good local fish market and
add fish oil to my foods. I believe most buy dried food and or commercial and perhaps gamma radiated frozen foods.
2/ I don't QT I simply equalise water the fish comes in with my aquarium water over no more than an hour often less before release.

 

[atoll]

1/ I don't think most marine aquarists feed "high quality foods" l make my own mostly sourced from the very good local fish market and
add fish oil to my foods. I believe most buy dried food and or commercial and perhaps gamma radiated frozen foods.
2/ I don't QT I simply equalise water the fish comes in with my aquarium water over no more than an hour often less before release.

With regards to the introduction of corals, mainly frags, sometimes I dip them in my home made dip sometimes not but each get inspected for signs of parasites which are rarely found. I aclimatise them over a period of a few hours to my DT water before introduction but no QT.

 

[Nopy117]

My brain is fried and now I'm questioning my approach to disease and treatment.
This is uncomfortable.

 

[Land Shark]

With regards to the introduction of corals, mainly frags, sometimes I dip them in my home made dip sometimes not but each get inspected for signs of parasites which are rarely found. I aclimatise them over a period of a few hours to my DT water before introduction but no QT.

What do you do in cases where you do see signs of parasites during your visual inspection?

 

[Paul B]

Paul B: "Fish that were quarantined will not be in great health and will probably die" https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ne-reef-hopefully.310714/page-55#post-4907935

It is hard (and not beneficial) to post one sentence of a paragraph because people will get the wrong Idea. For instance I did say that Quarantined fish will not be in great health and will probably die. But that was an answer to the question, "What would happen if you put a quarantined fish into a tank infected with pathogens" (not the exact words) I do feel that quarantined fish will never be in great health as they are missing their immunity. But I am talking about quarantining as "never feeding the fish live bacteria or parasites." Not just observing them in a separate tank for a week or two.

In this thread this has always been mis quoted. I am saying that Sterile fish (by that I mean fish that have not encountered harmful pathogens) will die in the presence of pathogens. They have to as they have no immunity to them that the fish make BY BEING EXPOSED TO THEM. Fish don't magically become immune and if Quarantined (like I said with an extended period of no living pathogens) they will not have immunity to anything.

The similarity the three or four of us have running immune tanks is that we all feed living bacteria. Atoll makes food, Lasse adds live snails, I feed live food and mud and I forgot what Gweeds does but I am sure it involves some sort of live bacteria.

This is an extremely simple concept but for some reason many people make it very complicated. Creatures have been living on Earth for millions of years by eating foods with live bacteria in them so their bodies can become and stay immune. No creature eats dry, dead, devoid of harmful bacteria like flake food or pellets. They all need living pathogens. Totally simple and even my Grand Daughter knows it.

Now I have to go and freeze my Jeans.