It's all @Paul B's fault... my journey to an immune reef (hopefully!)

[Paul B]

I would like your thoughts on something. I collect nsw regularly. The water is always visibly clean but it's what you can't see that can hurt you. My predicament is that I don't want to introduce any new parasites so I was thinking of hooking up a pump to a uv sterilzer and cycling the water through it for a few days to kill any parasites that may have been collected with the water.

You can do that and it would "help" but I think some of those nasty parasites will cling to the sides of the container and not get zapped. You could also put in a couple of heaters and heat it up to over 100 degrees for a few hours. I didn't invent that, it was Robert Straughn, the Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping.

It is certainly true that the better fed the fish is , the better the innate ie non specific immune system functions. Probably foods fed also affects the specific immune system. My guess is that a fish would have to be nearly starving before the immune system is significantly affected. I don’t think there is any significant benefit to feeding live frozen or quality dry foods to get the fish to the point where their immune system is functioning normally.

Actually i did research that a while ago and it is not true. I forget which system goes first but I think it's the spawning goes first, then the immune system fails to function, then the fish stops growing.
That is why I say if a fish is spawning, it is in the best condition it can be in and the reason most fish don't spawn in captivity. They are just not healthy enough even though they may be very old and healthy "looking"

Fish are not like most of us. We can be practically starving like our POWs to where they are just skin and bones, but our immune system still functions. If it did not, we would never have any POWs come home.
Fish almost always live on the edge and they don't get fat like some of us do. They use every available calorie to produce eggs and antibodies. Remember their slime is constantly renewed because it is water soluble.
Besides the slime is filled with antibodies to kill bacteria, viruses and parasites. Most of us don't exude slime as our skin is dead. (the outer layer, lets not get crazy unless we are a dead head)

Also a fishes eggs could be a third the body weight of the fish. Thats like Angela Jolie having a 60lb baby every two weeks. She has a lot of babies, but she adopted most of them which doesn't count.
If she were to have that many fat babies, imagine the food she would have to eat. Not to mention diapers, powder, baby oil etc.

 

[WVNed]

I agree with what you're saying.

I do have a question - if you've had a tank for 10 years with 100's of additions and no problems either you have a huge tank, things aren't growing, or things aren't surviving (unless you're adding a lot of small things that stay small) unless Im misunderstanding.

The immunity to CI is always quoted to 'last 6 months' - however, the reason for that is that the study they were doing lasted 6 months - they didn't test the fish after 6 months. The immunity at the last data point (at 6 months) seemed to be decreasing but they never checked past 6 months. So I'm not sure that there is good information out there that immunity doesn't last longer.

Also in this study - they were adding a dose of CI to the fish that reproducibly kills 50% of those exposed. Adding a couple parasites from an LFS to a large tank may not be enough to establish a population in a tank.

I have had 5 tanks. I started with a NanoCube and have a 75 now. I am thinking of all the times I have added more live rock, snails, hermits and everything else over that time.

 

[MnFish1]

You can do that and it would "help" but I think some of those nasty parasites will cling to the sides of the container and not get zapped. You could also put in a couple of heaters and heat it up to over 100 degrees for a few hours. I didn't invent that, it was Robert Straughn, the Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping.



Actually i did research that a while ago and it is not true. I forget which system goes first but I think it's the spawning goes first, then the immune system fails to function, then the fish stops growing.
That is why I say if a fish is spawning, it is in the best condition it can be in and the reason most fish don't spawn in captivity. They are just not healthy enough even though they may be very old and healthy "looking"

Fish are not like most of us. We can be practically starving like our POWs to where they are just skin and bones, but our immune system still functions. If it did not, we would never have any POWs come home.
Fish almost always live on the edge and they don't get fat like some of us do. They use every available calorie to produce eggs and antibodies. Remember their slime is constantly renewed because it is water soluble.
Besides the slime is filled with antibodies to kill bacteria, viruses and parasites. Most of us don't exude slime as our skin is dead. (the outer layer, lets not get crazy unless we are a dead head)

Also a fishes eggs could be a third the body weight of the fish. Thats like Angela Jolie having a 60lb baby every two weeks. She has a lot of babies, but she adopted most of them which doesn't count.
If she were to have that many fat babies, imagine the food she would have to eat. Not to mention diapers, powder, baby oil etc.

Lol. Well. Male fish have no eggs. Every pair of fish I have had have spawned. The angelfish didn’t hatch. The anthias as well. Clowns and damsels both hatched though I didn’t attempt to raise the young. At that point all of them were getting flake food only.

I am not sure which goes first reproduction or immunity when an animal is starving. My main point was you can keep fish from starving even if you feed frozen or quality flake or dry foods.

Btw my guess is that it’s immunity that goes away last.

 

[MnFish1]

I have had 5 tanks. I started with a NanoCube and have a 75 now. I am thinking of all the times I have added more live rock, snails, hermits and everything else over that time.

I assumed. I would say that it’s probably rare for parasites to come in Attached to snails rock etc unless those items are being kept in a tank with fish.

 

[WVNed]

I assumed. I would say that it’s probably rare for parasites to come I. Attached to snails rock etc unless those items are being kept in a tank with fish.

I disagree. Most if not all LFS here have a common water system among all the tanks. What is in one of them is in all of them.

 

[MnFish1]

I disagree. Most if not all LFS here have a common water system among all the tanks. What is in one of them is in all of them.

Perhaps. But I was under the misconception that most lfs dosed copper or other medication which would mean there aren’t parasites in their water. Of course copper would kill invertebrates. If they indeed have all of their tanks on the same water system with fish and inverts the number of parasites must be nonexistent or extremely small. Either way there would be no risk to your tank by adding snails from such a tank. Or at least only a very small risk.

I personally only buy fish that are held with invertebrates thus no copper at the lfs because the risk of parasites from such a system is low.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Perhaps. But I was under the misconception that most lfs dosed copper or other medication which would mean there aren’t parasites in their water. Of course copper would kill invertebrates. If they indeed have all of their tanks on the same water system with fish and inverts the number of parasites must be nonexistent or extremely small. Either way there would be no risk to your tank by adding snails from such a tank. Or at least only a very small risk.

I personally only buy fish that are held with invertebrates thus no copper at the lfs because the risk of parasites from such a system is low.

Some lfs keep their fish tanks at below therapeutic copper levels. This does not kill all the parasites but does suppress some symptoms. The shear number of fish an lfs receives in an order usually precludes the ability to quarantine. And many of these fish may have various infections from multiple vectors. The sub therapeutic levels in theory allow more of these fish to survive.

But not all lfs do this, i havent actually found copper in any of the water from fish ive purchased.

 

[MnFish1]

@Paul B btw the ci parasite does not feed on the slime coat of the fish it feeds on skin cells as well as body fluids. The cysts are inside the skIn

“ Trophonts can range in size from about 48 x 27 μm (~1/20 x 1/40 of a mm) to 452 x 360 μm (~1/2 x 1/3 mm) (1 μm = 1 micron; 1,000 microns = 1 millimeter). The trophont feeds on the body fluids and cells of the fish for about 3–7 days before leaving the host.”

Ps. Human skin is not dead. It is considered the largest organ in the human body. The outer layer consists of dead tissue. Which just like slime on a fish (which is also dead) protects the skin underneath

Edit. I meant to also quote from the article the part about CI being under the skin. I missed it. In case anyone wants to read a great summary article about CI from u fla. here is the link:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA16400.pdf

 

[MnFish1]

Some lfs keep their fish tanks at below therapeutic copper levels. This does not kill all the parasites but does suppress some symptoms. The shear number of fish an lfs receives in an order usually precludes the ability to quarantine. And many of these fish may have various infections from multiple vectors. The sub therapeutic levels in theory allow more of these fish to survive.

But not all lfs do this, i havent actually found copper in any of the water from fish ive purchased.

Yes. But those subtheraputic levels would kill most invertebrates

 

[Paul B]

@Paul B btw the ci parasite does not feed on the slime coat of the fish it feeds on skin cells as well as body fluids. The cysts are inside the skIn

Body fluids are also slime coat. It's a fluid and it's on their body. I need to look real close at the parasite mouth to see what they are actually eating. But whatever it is, they are living on the stuff.
Its like samantics.
But the fishes skin is under their scales so the parasites must be real smart to get there. Unless we are talking mandarins or eels. If it's a shark, they don't really have scales, more like denticles but I am not sure if they get ich. I am not a fish skin expert so I really don't know. There is an entire plethora of things I don't know.

Ps. Human skin is not dead. It is considered the largest organ in the human body. The outer layer consists of dead tissue.

I think I said that. Yes I did, I said it right here.

Most of us don't exude slime as our skin is dead. (the outer layer, lets not get crazy unless we are a dead head)

 

[Land Shark]

I recently learned from MnFish1 that he is a biologist in the field of microbiology and immunology. That certainly says a lot and lends to his credibility. Thank you sir for sharing your perspective on what is going on at that level.

 

[Maritimer]

Perhaps. But I was under the misconception that most lfs dosed copper or other medication which would mean there aren’t parasites in their water. Of course copper would kill invertebrates. If they indeed have all of their tanks on the same water system with fish and inverts the number of parasites must be nonexistent or extremely small. Either way there would be no risk to your tank by adding snails from such a tank. Or at least only a very small risk.

I personally only buy fish that are held with invertebrates thus no copper at the lfs because the risk of parasites from such a system is low.

In my neck of the woods, the presence of inverts in the system is virtually meaningless when it comes to parasites on the fish. Fish arrive at the LFS late in the morning on Tuesday (or Sunday, or whatever-day). By the evening of "fish day", "in-the-know" customers are in the shop, snatching the new arrivals before someone else does. A week later, there are less than 1/3 of the fish that were in the system on the evening of Fish Day last. Did they die of disease, or were they purchased? Either way, the cycle begins anew on the following day, without medication in the system or sterilization that would wipe out serious disease outbreaks.

(It should be noted that, while the cycle described above is common in my area, I can't say that absolutely every LFS does something similar - but I can say that fish with diseases come and go from invert systems on an almost daily basis. There's just no way I've seen that any LFS in my area could claim a disease-free invert system.)

~Bruce

 

[cancun]

I love @Paul B post as well. It is difficult for me to call him my hero, I am older than him by 6 months, however, if I need a hero, Paul qualifies. He and I were both in the high lands of Cambodia during Vietnam days. He was 82 Airborne Calvary and I was an Air Force crew chief on Puff the Magic Dragon. We both started marine tanks at the same time. His biology came from Long Island Sound and mine came from Galveston Bay.
Laissez les bonne temps roulee,
Patrick

Wow! Ok...now I have a second hero! [emoji16]

 

[cancun]

Cancun, thank you. I also did the drift dives in Cozumel. Also not my favorite dive location. That would be Bora Bora. My Book is here. http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/avant-garde-marine-aquarist/
For most of the life of my tank I also used ASW but I always had at least a little NSW in there. Now I live closer to the sea so it is all NSW.

Patrick, actually I was in the First Air Cavalry Division. But it is all the same thing. I also thank you for your service. Those "Puff the Magic Dragons" did a fantastic job and I wouldn't want to fly in one of those death traps.


What is that anyway?

Kmsutows. I did not refuse to see the point. I did say my Ozone, when I used it probably killed some parasites just like a cleaner wrasse may eat a few. That means nothing and if an ozonizer will keep your fish healthy, then why doesn't everyone use one. I think I know my fish and tank better than everyone here and I know they are immune. If fish don't get sick in 40 years "They are Immune". You can spin that any way you like and come up with all sorts of scenarios and believe anything you like.

I changed water and ran it through a coffee filter. That may have removed those really big parasites. Sometimes I use a diatom filter. Just because you can't achieve immunity in your tank doesn't mean other people can't.

As soon as I locate some fish I want I will add them, parasites or not, it doesn't matter but I don't see the need to add sick fish every time someone thinks my fish don't get sick because of diatom filters or ozone.
I don't have anything to prove.



Land Shark my friend. You are reading much to much into my responses and taking me much to seriously.

Didn't you see the little guy I ended with?

@PaulB thank you also for your service, along the other gentleman. I look forward to reading that book. I have not made it to Bora Bora yet but it is on my list for sure. My favorite fish are the Wrasses.....and that is because this curious blue headed Wrasse followed us all over this reef on this dive. I fell in love with the Labrids....lol....

 

[cancun]

Just scored some fresh mahi roe from a buddy of mine! Should be a welcome addition to the meal plan tomorrow!!

Yea I love using Roe....my fish love that stuff.....this LFS owner I know makes his own and sells it....he calls it Crabby Joe's Roe.... LOL!

 

[MnFish1]

In my neck of the woods, the presence of inverts in the system is virtually meaningless when it comes to parasites on the fish. Fish arrive at the LFS late in the morning on Tuesday (or Sunday, or whatever-day). By the evening of "fish day", "in-the-know" customers are in the shop, snatching the new arrivals before someone else does. A week later, there are less than 1/3 of the fish that were in the system on the evening of Fish Day last. Did they die of disease, or were they purchased? Either way, the cycle begins anew on the following day, without medication in the system or sterilization that would wipe out serious disease outbreaks.

(It should be noted that, while the cycle described above is common in my area, I can't say that absolutely every LFS does something similar - but I can say that fish with diseases come and go from invert systems on an almost daily basis. There's just no way I've seen that any LFS in my area could claim a disease-free invert system.)

~Bruce

The point is and was - if you see a fish in with invertebrates - they cant be in a copper-based medication. No more no less. I never buy a fish until I've seen it in a safe (i.e. copper-free, medication free environment) for at least a week. Others would do well to take heed of this. Its easy to put a deposit down on a fish. Most LFS in this area have fish tanks - on one system - probably with some kind of medication - and another for inverts - which usually has no fish. Both are large systems. Maybe we have larger fish stores here.... IDK.. To me anyone that would go to a local store - and pay for a fish that just came in the day before isn't thinking clearly - because they could have probably ordered the same fish from an online supplier and paid a lot less. (Unless the LFS is giving a guarantee for x days after purchase)

 

[MnFish1]

Body fluids are also slime coat. It's a fluid and it's on their body. I need to look real close at the parasite mouth to see what they are actually eating. But whatever it is, they are living on the stuff.
Its like samantics.
But the fishes skin is under their scales so the parasites must be real smart to get there. Unless we are talking mandarins or eels. If it's a shark, they don't really have scales, more like denticles but I am not sure if they get ich. I am not a fish skin expert so I really don't know. There is an entire plethora of things I don't know.



I think I said that. Yes I did, I said it right here.

The parasites burrow into the epidermis and below the slime layer. (read the provided article). The parasites are not just 'eating slime'. Its not semantics. Stop walking your words back lol - you said the parasites are eating slime - not doing anything else. In fact they burrow under the slime and eat other cells and bodily fluids.

There are quotes from your post Paul: I would appreciate you showing one article or anything that suggests that Cryptocaryon eats 'fish slime'.

"Besides the slime is filled with antibodies to kill bacteria, viruses and parasites. Most of us don't exude slime as our skin is dead. (the outer layer, lets not get crazy unless we are a dead head)"

"I "think" parasites are living happily in my and others tanks living off fish slime. They can't hold on to the fish for long because of the antiparisite substances in an immune fish but they can stay long enough to get a meal and reproduce. The parasite doesn't "want" to kill the fish as that would not benefit the parasite, except for maybe bragging rites. But the parasite eats slime and stays alive. We have parasites all over us eating dead skin cells but they don't hurt us."

As you know, the slime is general defense - it is not filled with any antibodies (which are specific to a certain parasit/bacteria/virus) until the fish is exposed to same. An Antibody against pseudomonas will not help against a vibrio infection, etc. The outer layer of our skin is dead as is the slime - and it is an excellent defense against bacteria, etc.

And, you also said that human skin is completely different from fish skin in that human skin (the outer layer) is dead whereas fish do not have that layer. In fact they do - its the slime layer. If you want to have an honest discussion - stop quoting out of context.

 

[Paul B]

Quote:
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.

According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote

I would appreciate you showing one article or anything that suggests that Cryptocaryon eats 'fish slime'.

Does a quote from my book count?
Can you find an article that says a parasite doesn't eat slime?

Loyola, University of New Orleans, Center for environmental Communication
The stuff seems to have some food value so who knows if parasites eat it?
Quote:
Some fish are known to use slime to create nests for their young, and others actually secrete copious amounts of protein-rich slime as food for their offspring. End Quote.

Just because we don't actually see them eating slime, or anything else doesn't mean they don't eat it.
Not everything written in books is factual. Virtually everything I have submitted for publication in the last 40 years was published as fact in paper magazines and on line. I am an electrician, not a marine biologist. I could be reading this stuff on a can of orange juice.
I do read constantly but I also have spent over 300 hours underwater observing fish and have kept them every day for over 60 years. I did not go to college (there was that war thing) but I do have a little experience, some from books, but more from observation.

As you know, the slime is general defense - it is not filled with any antibodies

Quote: (Not from my book

"The mucus of a fish provides physical protection by trapping pathogens (microorganisms that cause disease). When the old mucus layer containing the pathogens is shed and replaced by new mucus, the pathogens are lost. Antibodies, antimicrobial peptides, and enzymes in the mucus actively attack pathogens. End Quote

 

[MnFish1]

Quote:
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.

According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote


Does a quote from my book count?
Can you find an article that says a parasite doesn't eat slime?

Loyola, University of New Orleans, Center for environmental Communication
The stuff seems to have some food value so who knows if parasites eat it?
Quote:
Some fish are known to use slime to create nests for their young, and others actually secrete copious amounts of protein-rich slime as food for their offspring. End Quote.

Just because we don't actually see them eating slime, or anything else doesn't mean they don't eat it.
Not everything written in books is factual. Virtually everything I have submitted for publication in the last 40 years was published as fact in paper magazines and on line. I am an electrician, not a marine biologist. I could be reading this stuff on a can of orange juice.
I do read constantly but I also have spent over 300 hours underwater observing fish and have kept them every day for over 60 years. I did not go to college (there was that war thing) but I do have a little experience, some from books, but more from observation.


Quote: (Not from my book

"The mucus of a fish provides physical protection by trapping pathogens (microorganisms that cause disease). When the old mucus layer containing the pathogens is shed and replaced by new mucus, the pathogens are lost. Antibodies, antimicrobial peptides, and enzymes in the mucus actively attack pathogens. End Quote

All of the things you’re citing except your book I agree with and have said basically the same thing as each of the articles.

The only difference is that in the past you’re the one that says ich doesn’t damage skin but instead eats slime. So i posted an article that says ich eats skin cells and body fluids and is imbedded under the skin.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Another angle is that all aquatic life interacts with their environment differently than terrestrial animals. I have no studies to collaborate this but would hypothesize there is less less water borne disease in say sea lions as opposed to sea otters that spend significantly more time in the ocean.

But i could very well be wrong as Chytridiomycosis species susceptibility is independent of the particular amphibians need for water. Some direct development salamanders are effected where some salamanders that breed in water are only reservoirs.