I've been in this hobby for a year now and I just cant seem to make it work. I can you the communities advice, as I'm clearly doing something wrong.

[fish farmer]

I don't take it personally and I appreciate your input. I'm trying to accomplish a very specific style of reefing. This isn't my first tank, and I've already "learned to walk" so to speak. I've been in this game a while and I wanted to do something different. Isn't that what this hobby is about? I know you can have a successful reef tank with minimal WC and dosing AFR. Plenty of people on this forum do it successfully everyday. It just gets a little frustrating when people want to steer the conversation in a different direction. It's like if I was trying to grow some rare, non photosynthetic coral that had a species specific diet of live bred food, and people replied with "just grow Xenia, it's easy". Is it true? Yes. Is it my goal? Not really. Either way, I'm pretty sure I've found the source of my issue, so I'm going to adjust my methods and try that. Happy reefing!

Your title says you've been in the hobby for a year and have been struggling.....sounds like you are still "learning to walk".

If you had stated the specifics of this method you were trying from the first post maybe this thread wouldn't have gone in several directions.

 

[BuckChoklit]

Id have to agree with a few of the guys here on too much going on. I read through a few of your threads and it seems you've been having quite a few more issues. As a newbie myself all I can really say is take a step back and try to keep things as simple as possible and then go from there. Take your time and observe and the tank will tell you what it needs. Best of luck

 

[rennjidk]

Your title says you've been in the hobby for a year and have been struggling.....sounds like you are still "learning to walk".

If you had stated the specifics of this method you were trying from the first post maybe this thread wouldn't have gone in several directions.

I very clearly outlined my method thus far with all of the emperical data I had available. Possession of knowledge =/= correct application of knowledge. If someone has convinced themselves that methods of micro and macro element management such as Triton and it's various other forms are not possible, then there's no amount of convincing I can do to sway that. Everyone has their own opinions and "methods" but this is science. Throwing around concepts like WC's and microbiome without a clear understanding of what they are and what they do serves no real purpose. Someone with actual chemical knowledge was able to deliver an answer. I'll repeat it again for the 3rd time now in this thread. Calcium Formate consumes NO3 and PO4 as it converts into it's usable forms. The other products that I was adding contained organic carbon. This meant that I was effectively triple carbon dosing and not allowing the calcium formate to convert. This lead to large dKH swings and low available nutrients which corals cannot tolerate.

 

[xCry0x]

You keep referencing this method you are trying to follow but you never actually stated the method in your original post.

You just said you were having issues with coral dying and then listed everything you are currently doing.

What method are you doing/trying to do? No water changes?

 

[jmichaelh7]

Tank is young and you have lots of corals to begin with. Why not take it slow and steady

 

[jabberwock]

IMHO, slow it down, in fact, search desperately for reverse.

 

[rennjidk]

I will say here, I've never had a tank with stony corals that went more than about 4 weeks before water changes to maintain alkalinity became completely unsustainable, so I think that type of advice is ridiculous. I'm dosing 2 part as soon as alkalinity starts moving.

Corals (and coralline) can't photosynthesize without using bicarbonate - so if alkalinity isn't being used, things aren't growing, and when you're telling people "I didn't need to dose anything in the first year" part of what you're saying is you had little meaningful growth.

This sort of advice is a self fulfilling prophecy. You don't dose, corals don't get what they need most of the time, they don't grow, and so you don't need to dose. You get a little spike of growth every time you do a water change, but the rest of the time the corals are just sustaining.

I honestly don't know why we're still debating this with every thread. WC's serve 3 purposes: Nutrient export, Macro and Micro Element replenishment, and contaminate dilution. If you have adequate nutrient export (ie skimmer, fuge, carbon dosing), replenishment in the form of the 30 different systems out there, and contaminate prevention/removal such as quality carbon, then they serve very little purpose and are definitely not the miracle cure that people keep pushing.

 

[jabberwock]

I don't think you want advice.

 

[knockout]

I added 4 jars of Eco pods around week one to combat the diatom bloom, I just forgot to mention it. Why do you suggest pulling the carbon and purigen? I thought that carbon would be beneficial in combatting the chemical warfare of so many different corals (primarily zoas), and that purigen just helps to polish the water quality/clarity.

I highly doubt the pods could have survived the cycling period - in week one you should have added nothing but an ammonia source to spike the cycling process.

 

[Lavey29]

I honestly don't know why we're still debating this with every thread. WC's serve 3 purposes: Nutrient export, Macro and Micro Element replenishment, and contaminate dilution. If you have adequate nutrient export (ie skimmer, fuge, carbon dosing), replenishment in the form of the 30 different systems out there, and contaminate prevention/removal such as quality carbon, then they serve very little purpose and are definitely not the miracle cure that people keep pushing.

Except in a 3 month old tank

 

[knockout]

You're doing way, way too much and dosing way too many conflicting supplements.



You're having to dose Nitrate and Phosphate because you're dosing multiple different carbon sources, you're using a carbon based alkalinity/calcium supplement in AFR that is going to be utilized at very different rates every time you screw with your nitrogen and phosphorus with the other products, and then you're dosing heterotrophic sewage processing bacteria because why? Why are you worried about growing chaeto when your nitrate and phosphate keep bottoming out? You're feeding multiple coral foods that are basically just phosphate paste despite having almost no coral mass in the tank.


Stop all of this. Simplify. Stabilize.


1.Go out and get simple alkalinity and calcium supplements. (I highly recommend Randy's 2 part recipes).
2.Test your alkalinity.
3.Dose up to 7.5 dkh. (dose the same amount of CA if using balanced supplement)
4.Test again at the same time the next day.
5.Calculate the difference.
6.Dose that amount each day for the next 7 days.
7.Test again, adjust the daily dose.

Do this for like 6 weeks. Keep the alkalinity stable. Feed the fish. Don't worry about feeding the corals. Dose phosphate if it drops below .04, nitrate below 5-10ppm. Don't dose any of the Clean or other carbon products. If you get a little hair algae, pull it out. Cyano, siphon it out.

Nothing you want to keep is going to do well with the alkalinity, phosphate, and nitrate yoyoing about like that.

100% in agreement

 

[knockout]

I honestly don't know why we're still debating this with every thread. WC's serve 3 purposes: Nutrient export, Macro and Micro Element replenishment, and contaminate dilution. If you have adequate nutrient export (ie skimmer, fuge, carbon dosing), replenishment in the form of the 30 different systems out there, and contaminate prevention/removal such as quality carbon, then they serve very little purpose and are definitely not the miracle cure that people keep pushing.

and yet here you are asking what is wrong with your tank, nothing everyone tells you you take into consideration,

I don't think you want advice.

@jabberwock - I think you're onto something

 

[TokenReefer]

Just curious...is anyone out there starting out right out of the gate doing no water changes successfully? If so... I want in!

 

[aSaltyKlown]

I find it curious that you are dosing PO4, but running Purigen. That is a bit counterproductive. It seems you are dosing to cancel out the effect of dosing.

I'd wish I learned off the bat that new sterile tanks do not need all the bells and whistles for some time until the tank matures. This includes cheato, skimmers, and such. They can strip out nutrients faster than what is being produced and then folks end up dosing when all they need to do is to simplify. I could be wrong, but this is a pattern I see with many people who struggle early on.

The best thing I did with my EVO was to stop chasing numbers and making weekly changes. Did 10% water changes sometimes skipped even a week. The less I did the better the tank looked. It looked great keeping NSW levels, my ALK was between 7-7.5. No need to run any higher at this point while learning. I was not trying to quickly grow anything fast with elevated PH and ALk. It was a great learning curve. I just moved to a 40 Breeder and am starting to keep my ALk at 8.5 and started to dose AFR for the first time.

 

[rennjidk]

and yet here you are asking what is wrong with your tank, nothing everyone tells you you take into consideration,

@jabberwock - I think you're onto something

If you have something other than conjecture, or your own personal opinion on how reef chemistry works, I'm all ears. I've been nothing but polite throughout this entire thread. I'm sorry if my understanding of reef chemistry differs from yours. I don't understand these personal attacks or why you've chosen to respond this way. I came for an answer, and I received one, based in actual organic chemistry. I don't much care if that's not the popular answer, because it is founded in science.

 

[killer2001]

FRAG DAY! Added corals to the tank. 4 hammers, 10 gonis, 2 blasto, 2 acan, 12 zoa colonies, 1 candy cane, 1 duncan, 2 monti caps, and 4 small acros.

You added 38 coral frags only 1 month after you started up from a sterile tank, 4 of which were acros. Has anyone ever successfully done that without any coral deaths? If so we should call that the rennjidk method.

 

[Northwest_Scapes_]

I honestly don't know why we're still debating this with every thread. WC's serve 3 purposes: Nutrient export, Macro and Micro Element replenishment, and contaminate dilution. If you have adequate nutrient export (ie skimmer, fuge, carbon dosing), replenishment in the form of the 30 different systems out there, and contaminate prevention/removal such as quality carbon, then they serve very little purpose and are definitely not the miracle cure that people keep pushing.

Water Changes absolutely help in a young system. IMO the tank benefits from having a consistent schedule. It also provides some good stability which is what seems to be the thing the tank is missing especially with all the dosing.

As others have said, you don't need to be dosing so much especially in a system as small as 30 gallons. Water Changes are usually enough to replenish all the nutrients in smaller systems unless you're tank is really full of growing corals and you notice your levels are being depleted faster than you can replenish.

The best thing I can say is to tone down the amount of stuff you're doing. I've noticed and I bet a lot of people can back me up, the more I let the tank do it's the thing, the more it thrives. Having everything be stable instead of tinkering with and chasing levels 100% helps. If everything is looking good, just leave it. Stop dosing since it's not needed, and cut off the Fuge for now. If you're struggling to keep your No3 and Po4 up without dosing, your refugium is taking out too many nutrients especially in a tank as young as 3 months.

 

[92Miata]

Just curious...is anyone out there starting out right out of the gate doing no water changes successfully? If so... I want in!

I think there's an enormous space between no water changes and being told to use water changes as a means to manage alkalinity and everything else.

I've never done prophylactic water changes. The 10% water changes people do just don't make meaningful differences in water chemistry - if you want to use them to manage water chemistry - you need to be doing big water changes.

Alkalinity drops from 8 to 6 and you do a 10% water change? You're at 6.2. Waste of time.

 

[Northwest_Scapes_]

You added 38 coral frags only 1 month after you started up from a sterile tank, 4 of which were acros. Has anyone ever successfully done that without any coral deaths? If so we should call that the rennjidk method.

Agreed with what others have said again, it sounds like you're rushing things wayyyy too fast. 38 frags in 1 day just 1 month after the tank has been setup is just a setup for disaster. Especially adding SPS like Acros and Montis only after a month, the tank is no way near mature enough for SPS.

 

[exnisstech]

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