I've been in this hobby for a year now and I just cant seem to make it work. I can you the communities advice, as I'm clearly doing something wrong.

[92Miata]

There is nothting wrong with the tank is too young if you know what you are doing. But there is a huge problem with putting 38 corals into a 30 gal tank which is only 3 months old. You see the different ?

I've put dozens of corals in a 3 month old tank. 3 months is not the problem. I set up a tank at one point because a coral vendor sent my wife the wrong box of corals and fish and she didn't want any of them. Premixed salt water in the tank from my mixing station, with some dry rock, a bottle of biospira, and then about 2 hours later everything was in the tank. The majority of those corals survived long term. Was it a good way to do it? Absolutely not. Is it doable? yes.


The problem is the aquarist not understanding how to maintain the tank and the corals. The timelines are more about the aquarist learning how things work, and understanding how to recognize signals his animals are giving him, and building the food chains that are necessary to support things. For some people that takes years, for some it takes weeks. The tank is not too young, the aquarist is too inexperienced. If you're still at a point in the hobby where it takes you almost a year in a tank to keep corals alive - you shouldn't be giving people with new tanks advice - because you don't know what you're doing.

And he already has those corals. Telling him he bought them too soon is entirely unhelpful because he doesn't own a time machine. He can't undo that. Yelling "bad dog" isn't doing anything productive. He needs to figure out how to keep them alive, and then get them growing.

So either help with that, or stop trying to stop the discussion. He needs actionable advice - not to be scolded.

 

[jmatt]

It's been an interesting read, I learned some stuff. My only contribution is that the thread title may someday inspire my Reef Diary Memoir, which I will entitle "I'm Clearly Doing Something Wrong"

 

[DIFish]

I've put dozens of corals in a 3 month old tank. 3 months is not the problem. I set up a tank at one point because a coral vendor sent my wife the wrong box of corals and fish and she didn't want any of them. Premixed salt water in the tank from my mixing station, with some dry rock, a bottle of biospira, and then about 2 hours later everything was in the tank. The majority of those corals survived long term. Was it a good way to do it? Absolutely not. Is it doable? yes.


The problem is the aquarist not understanding how to maintain the tank and the corals. The timelines are more about the aquarist learning how things work, and understanding how to recognize signals his animals are giving him, and building the food chains that are necessary to support things. For some people that takes years, for some it takes weeks. The tank is not too young, the aquarist is too inexperienced. If you're still at a point in the hobby where it takes you almost a year in a tank to keep corals alive - you shouldn't be giving people with new tanks advice - because you don't know what you're doing.

And he already has those corals. Telling him he bought them too soon is entirely unhelpful because he doesn't own a time machine. He can't undo that. Yelling "bad dog" isn't doing anything productive. He needs to figure out how to keep them alive, and then get them growing.

So either help with that, or stop trying to stop the discussion. He needs actionable advice - not to be scolded.

This 100%. You can cycle a tank from day 1 with hardy corals in and be fine. Should all people new to reefing do this? No it is not the easiest or best way, but it can be done and has been done in the past with great results. In my opinion the common advice of waiting for 6+ months for corals is solid advice because most people don’t understand water chemistry when first starting, and for people unwilling to do the research or without prior knowledge is is easier to just wait it out. In this case OP has stated his intent, is keeping a stable tank, and is obviously willing to dose anything needed. I am not sure why everyone is so set on reprimanding him for that when there are obviously other issues at play. If he had said instead that his tank was a year old the conversation would instead be centered around his dosing routine and lack of nutrients, which in my opinion are much bigger factors then the age of his tank. He has also said in earlier pages that he was going to take some of the advise with dosing and refugium timing, so I am not sure what else he is expected to do outside of gutting the tank and removing all of the corals which seems to be what some here want him to do. Obviously there is a problem as his corals are slowly dying, but I do not think tank age has much at all to do with it.

 

[Spare time]

I've put dozens of corals in a 3 month old tank. 3 months is not the problem. I set up a tank at one point because a coral vendor sent my wife the wrong box of corals and fish and she didn't want any of them. Premixed salt water in the tank from my mixing station, with some dry rock, a bottle of biospira, and then about 2 hours later everything was in the tank. The majority of those corals survived long term. Was it a good way to do it? Absolutely not. Is it doable? yes.


The problem is the aquarist not understanding how to maintain the tank and the corals. The timelines are more about the aquarist learning how things work, and understanding how to recognize signals his animals are giving him, and building the food chains that are necessary to support things. For some people that takes years, for some it takes weeks. The tank is not too young, the aquarist is too inexperienced. If you're still at a point in the hobby where it takes you almost a year in a tank to keep corals alive - you shouldn't be giving people with new tanks advice - because you don't know what you're doing.

And he already has those corals. Telling him he bought them too soon is entirely unhelpful because he doesn't own a time machine. He can't undo that. Yelling "bad dog" isn't doing anything productive. He needs to figure out how to keep them alive, and then get them growing.

So either help with that, or stop trying to stop the discussion. He needs actionable advice - not to be scolded.

Exactly. This thread is ridiculous. Almost no one is mentioning the tank is running a practically barren environment in terms of nitrate and phosphate. Not to mention the OP is actively dosing two bottles of bacteria that are competing with their corals for nitrogen and phosphate. I have put anemones in 2 week old tanks, corals in tanks of a similar age, and they were fine. Why? Because I kept the numbers where they needed to be.

 

[Spare time]

I highly doubt the pods could have survived the cycling period - in week one you should have added nothing but an ammonia source to spike the cycling process.

You would be surprised by what copepods and amphipods can survive.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I think the OP is out of this thread. You guys are raggin' no one.

 

[rennjidk]

I think the OP is out of this thread. You guys are raggin' no one.

I had to take a large step back. Once people started suggesting that it takes weeks or months to even nitrogen cycle a tank to the point of being safe to add live stock, I realized who I was arguing with (Dr. Tim would like a word with you). For the record, I cycled my tank using fritz ammonia dosed to 2ppm, live substrate, and biospira. I was at 0/0/8 within 36 hours. People also commented that my biodiversity was low, despite building my tank around BRS' winners in the new DNA tested biodiversity investigates series. I do understand how carbon dosing works and was completely oblivious to the fact that I was adding such large sources from multiple products. I'm not entirely convinced that the small amount of carbon produced as a by-product from the conversion of the calcium formate is seriously contributing to this issue, and I found another thread where RHF said basically the same. The real issue is the carbon present in the Cheato Gro, MBR products, and AB+, so for now I have stopped those. I believe that, that unintentional dosing is in fact driving my nutrients down to the point that the AFR is no longer able to convert effectively, thus causing my large weekly dKH swings as @92Miata pointed out. Right now my plan is to continue dosing AFR daily as my main source of Macro and Micro elements along with a 10% monthly WC (which I stated in my original post that I was already doing). If the fuge continues to drive down nutrients to the point that I'm needing to dose every week, then I'm going to switch to a Macro less aggressive than chaeto, or remove it completely. Either way, thank you for the PM and yes, I do think I'm going to retire on this thread. I'll post an update in a month or two, hopefully with more success, and maybe a few new frags out of spite

 

[2Wheelsonly]

I'm really struggling to keep corals alive, and though I've followed all the steps to success, everything seems to just slowly die. I'll post as much relevant information as I can starting with my reef journal:

The tank is 3 months old Nuvo 30L (30g) and started completely sterile with the exception of Ocean Direct sand and Aqua Forest reef mud. Salinity has been kept consistent at 34.5ppt using 2 different test methods and a Tunze ATO. Temperature is a constant 77.1F. PH is 7.9. The sump consists of filter floss pads, a chaeto fuge on 8 hours at night, Rox 0.8 carbon, and Purigen. Lighting is provided by 2 AI Primes running 11 hours a day (with 4 hours total ramp) at 8" off the water tuned to UV80/V80/RB72/B100/R10/G10/W10 which should be giving around 100 par based on other people's testing.

Dosing:
3ml All for Reef daily
3ml Cheato Gro weekly
2ml AB+ daily
5ml Microbactor 7 & Clean weekly
No3 and PO4 as needed

Feeding is a blend of Reef Frenzy Nano, Reef Roids, AB+, and Frozen Mysis in homemade cubes.

Source water is RODI with tested TDS 0.0 using 2 different meters. Salt is IO Reef Crystals. I do a 10% water change monthly.

Stocking: 2 Clowns, 1 Royal Gramma, 1 Lawnmower Blenny, 1 Yellow Watchman Goby and Tiger PIstol Shrimp, 1 Banngai Cardinal, 1 Peppermint shrimp, 10 Astrea Turbo, 30 Dwarf Ceriths, 4 Red Legs, 10 Blue legs, 1 Trochus, 10 Nassarius.

I'm positive I'm not introducing anything into the tank. I always wear gloves and keep my hands out as much as possible. So far I've had 1 hammer die, 3 others that are very unhappy, acans receding, zoas constantly stressed/changing color/partially open, and 4 dead gonies.

I've convinced myself that I need more flow despite running 900gph through the return with 1/2" RFG's. I've ordered 2 600gph powerheads to combat this and I also made a video of the normal flow here:



That's about all I can think to add at this point. Any Ideas?

Tank is 3 months old and you're dosing all that crap.

Simplify! Stop buying corals and focus on keeping your fish alive. I don't say that sarcastically, just simplify; keep your big three stable (calc, alk, mag) along with temp and salinity. Feed your fish and do nothing else, think of it as taking a break without breaking the tank down.

Before you know it 3-12 months will have passed and you can take another shot at things. I can assure you that your results will be different.

Patience rewards people for sticking it out in this hobby and impatience kicks them out of the hobby.

 

[rennjidk]

Tank is 3 months old and you're dosing all that crap.

keep your big three stable (calc, alk, mag)

 

[swampcruiser]

I’m just throwing it out there, I know I’m new on the forum but I’ve been keeping saltwater tanks a long time. I haven’t read through all the post but 10% monthly is pretty sparse for a newer tank.
FWIW I would stop dosing and start doing weekly 10% changes to keep things balanced and simple as stated above. On a relatively small tank that’s tough to beat. Water changes are the simplest form of replenishment.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

whine blah blah

But...you....are....dosing....all... that extra....crap.

Just stick to baseball cards dude.

 

[1Meshy]

Ah, yes. I remember when I first started reefing I also added a BUNCH of unecessary additives because I thought they would all help balance things out. It wasn't until I was running into similar problems as you that I started looking for help.

Everyone pretty much told me the same thing: keep things simple. There's no need to add a bunch of chemicals if the tank isn't even being allowed to balance itself out, especially if it's a young tank.

Hold off on buying corals and just let the tank be. Let its natural cycle fluorish and soon everything will balance itself out.

Sometimes less really is more!

 

[Hermie]

honestly my tank does bad when I dont do water changes regardless of dosing.
10% a month is like super lazy almost pointless (If I do that level to my tank).

When I do a water change its like 25% every 2-4 weeks, but really 10% a week is better than 10% a month. Like I said, it's almost pointless to do 10% a month. I mean it will give you some trace elements but by the time 4 weeks rolls around the tank will have used them all up a while ago. So even doing 5% a week is better than 10% a month IMO.

 

[elysics]

So to put in a bit more constructive feedback, and I don't think others have said this yet,

Sure, cut out all the carbon sources and see if the issue goes away on it's own first, but there's another issue:

If your reef journal in the first post is complete, there were multiple instances where you measured 0.00 PO4, dosed a bit of PO4 and then measured again a week later. That doesn't cut it. If you run into PO4 limitation (0), you need to measure daily or every couple days and dose as often (adapting your dose each time from your measurement) until you get a stable dose and a stable level where you can test less often (but keep dosing your stable dose). Dosing once and coming back a week later, especially with all the bacteria consuming it is like seeing starving fish, feeding them once, and then waiting until they are starving again.

I think the first time it happened in your table it seemed fine from the level a week later, but you can't assume that. Unless you have a super stable tank and know your consumption by heart and by the look and of your corals, measuring 0.00 is an emergency, and coming back a week later is too late.

If you are lucky that stabel dose then slowly trends towards dosing nothing, especially with all those coral foods

 

[ReefGeezer]

... (Dr. Tim would like a word with you)... building my tank around BRS' winners in the new DNA tested biodiversity investigates series...

Marketing often presents itself as science and is responsible for a lot of misinformation in this hobby. Not all information presented by people or companies that have something to sell is everything it is made out to be. Be wary.

I'll post an update in a month or two, hopefully with more success, and maybe a few new frags out of spite

Karma sucks, particularly in reefing.

 

[Kasrift]

I skimmed through three pages, there is some good advice and some people being negative on someone just looking for help.

You mentioned you are getting powerhead, I'd say you probably need more flow, but not necessarily to get coral movement but more to get water surface agitation. You have a LOT of clean up crew and six fish, so even though your ph is 7.9, I'd be cautious on the oxygen level. I'm newer to the hobby and just about to hit my one year mark, but I've been successful adding corals right away. I did hundreds if not more hours of research beforehand, but I don't think you are doing anything crazy wrong. I do agree that you should limit dosing until you figure the balance you need.

One last note, it is mentioned all of the time, but take things slow and don't make major adjustments because you are chasing numbers or following advice quickly. You have a lot of corals that look like they are doing fine, so keep what you have happy and take it slow for adaptations.

 

[rennjidk]

I skimmed through three pages, there is some good advice and some people being negative on someone just looking for help.

You mentioned you are getting powerhead, I'd say you probably need more flow, but not necessarily to get coral movement but more to get water surface agitation. You have a LOT of clean up crew and six fish, so even though your ph is 7.9, I'd be cautious on the oxygen level. I'm newer to the hobby and just about to hit my one year mark, but I've been successful adding corals right away. I did hundreds if not more hours of research beforehand, but I don't think you are doing anything crazy wrong. I do agree that you should limit dosing until you figure the balance you need.

One last note, it is mentioned all of the time, but take things slow and don't make major adjustments because you are chasing numbers or following advice quickly. You have a lot of corals that look like they are doing fine, so keep what you have happy and take it slow for adaptations.

I do have pretty decent surface agitation. Both of the return nozzles are pointed up at the surface, and the sump chambers have a little "waterfall" action going on. Obviously that's no where near the oxygenation a skimmer would add, but I can't clearly look down through the surface of the water because it's being broken over so much.

The powerheads did add great flow. I have them set up in a master/slave gyre configuration, so now the entire water volume gently rocks up and down, side to side. It was unexpectedly entertaining in and of itself, lol.

I was surprised by the amount of stuff that got kicked up when I turned them on. I thought I had pretty good flow at around 35x, but apparently there were a lot of dead spots not getting hit.

 

[Kasrift]

Several more things to point out. 1) dosing phosphates and nitrates is really more advanced. I haven't done it in the year I've been doing this. If needed, I just feed more. 2). Goni/alveopora really benefit from direct feeding of reef roids, turn off flow, dust them with Roids and turn on pumps again in 15-20 mins. 3) I use chemipure Blue in my media tray and have tried a few different carbons and for whatever reason, things can get finicky with too much carbon or different types. I've pulled a bag of carbon a day later when I noticed everything not opening up, and things bounce back fine. Same applies if you have too much purigen or anything that is going to quickly absorb or change water chemistry. 4) I'd look at your salt. You mentioned using reef crystals which have an alkalinity of 10 I think, but your parameters posted show you are keeping it consistent at 8ish. That means when you do a water change, you are spiking alk. I'd look for a salt that is more in line with what you are trying to keep your alk at.

 

[rennjidk]

But...you....are....dosing....all... that extra....crap.

Just stick to baseball cards dude.

So are you every time you do a water change. What do you think is in salt mix? Salt obviously, but also cal, mag, and alk supplements along with a whole plethora of trace element additives. I'm doing the exact same thing only without the large volume of salt added, so where as you need to dilute that salt down with 5 gallons of water, and remove that extra volume from your tank, I only need to drip in 3ml of the actual stuff that needs replenished. That's what dosing is and why people who say that WCs are superior to dosing literally have no idea what theyre even arguing about. You can't say things like focus on keeping you parameters stable, and then in then next breath say to stop dosing. Those two statements are a counter productive.

 

[zaga]

When people speak of dosing, I think the problem is:

"
Dosing:
3ml All for Reef daily
3ml Cheato Gro weekly
2ml AB+ daily
5ml Microbactor 7 & Clean weekly
No3 and PO4 as needed
"

keep the All for Reef to balance out your ALK, Cal, and Mag but chill on the rest. Let your tank run its course.