Jaubert bowl / plenum 8.8g

[Clarkjw2002]

I noticed in the pics that you have an airstone in the under gravel filter tube. I'm curious as to whether you are actually running that to pull the water up from the plenum--like a normal under gravel filter?

From what I've read of the Jaubert system you shouldn't do that but, instead, leave the plenum water sealed off under the sand/gravel bed. I've seen reports that, when run like an under gravel filter, you can't get nitrates down because it prevents the proper set up of anoxic zones. He did use air stones for water movement though--but not connected to the plenum.

I'm planning to set one up in a 125 gal refugium for my retirement build. Best tank I ever had ran a plenum back in the day--2001 to 2004. Even deployed for a year and the tank flourished.

Also, did you stick to the 2-5mm grain size suggestion? I'm planning a base layer of this size but had ungraded sand (0.5-5mm I think) for the top. Now I'm wondering if I should stick to the 2-5mm only. No idea what I'd use the several hundred pounds of aragonite sand for otherwise!

I used Southdown aragonite play sand the last time around and that definitely had a grain size smaller than 2mm.

 

[Hot2na]

I noticed in the pics that you have an airstone in the under gravel filter tube. I'm curious as to whether you are actually running that to pull the water up from the plenum--like a normal under gravel filter?

From what I've read of the Jaubert system you shouldn't do that but, instead, leave the plenum water sealed off under the sand/gravel bed. I've seen reports that, when run like an under gravel filter, you can't get nitrates down because it prevents the proper set up of anoxic zones. He did use air stones for water movement though--but not connected to the plenum.

I'm planning to set one up in a 125 gal refugium for my retirement build. Best tank I ever had ran a plenum back in the day--2001 to 2004. Even deployed for a year and the tank flourished.

Also, did you stick to the 2-5mm grain size suggestion? I'm planning a base layer of this size but had ungraded sand (0.5-5mm I think) for the top. Now I'm wondering if I should stick to the 2-5mm only. No idea what I'd use the several hundred pounds of aragonite sand for otherwise!

I used Southdown aragonite play sand the last time around and that definitely had a grain size smaller than 2mm.

good 'ol FCC florida crushed coral is what works well for me..it is 2-5mm and varies...on my current setup - I added a thin layer of caribsea ARM ( aragonite reactor media ) Coarse ..underneath .. It acts like an internal calcium reactor under the main layer..everything s covered in coraline in this tank ...it works !

 

[besskurz]

I just ordered the grid online, actually cost 0,4 € which is fine.

I see, you've put your corals too quickly and too much i guess? For the moment i'm not planing getting corals, only caulerpa and a live rock. Only to see if i'm able to have the responsability of such lives haha.

By the way i have an air pump also that may provide enough flow to the bowl.
I'll show you once i have everything in place!

Yes, I believe i was too quick. It was poor management definitely but... at this point there was no more guideline. Everybody says this system is shower than a Berlin.. but I didn't knew what this meant in numbers.

Cycle took 15 days to complete.
Clean up crew added with 35 days. Two nassarus and an astraea snail from that time are still here.
Hermit crabs, caulerpa and Xenia were added with 44 days - diatom time.
Other corals with 57 days. From that time only toadstool and palys are still alive and thriving.
System only started to show more maturity (rocks turning into green) after 130 days.

I believe that one important point is Live rock. I used "standard" or widely spread proportions.
I have here 7lb / 3kg.
This bowl has 8.8gal / 33.3 lts but I could fill only with 6.6gal / 25lts.
Proportion would be almost 1lb per 1gal ( 1kg per 8 lt.).

I just don't trust much the air stone to create flow but... @brandon429 is here. He got way more success with this air stones than I do.

 

[Euphrate]

Most of the bunk you hear about this method is all due to people who DONT set it up right ..

I feel attacked :face-with-tears-of-joy: Hopefully i won't be one of those persons.

I believe that one important point is Live rock.

Well, i 'd be glad if i had read it before setting up my bowl, anyway for now i have only sand in it so i'm not gonna kill anyone except some bacterias.

I just don't trust much the air stone to create flow but... @brandon429 is here. He got way more success with this air stones than I do.

Also, maybe just the air pump without the air stone? So it makes big bubbles? I was also hesitating with a super mini pump 500L/h.

 

[Hot2na]

euphrate : this might help you ..https://www.lamethodejaubert.com/

 

[besskurz]

So happy to see a thread like this ! .. Jaubert system got a bad rap yrs ago ,probably cause the big companies in the hobby knew it was a super simple method to effectively keep a reef ..and keep it well ! I have been employing this method for over 30 yrs now..and though I've tried other reefing methods over my 46 yrs in this hobby - I always keep coming back to the Jaubert plenum system ..It's almost bulletproof if you set it up right and it gets better as it ages ..Most of the bunk you hear about this method is all due to people who DONT set it up right ..Hydrogen sulfide claims for example are mainly due to people not using the right grade of substrate or depth..If you do it right - the plenum method deveolped by Jaubert will give you YEARS of stable , trouble free reefing ! .. on my current tank which houses some anemones which are considered "very difficult to keep " (stichtodactyla Gigantea) by many in the reef hobby .. everything is thriving and growing in a zero to near zero nitrate environment .. I have NOT done any water changes in the last 2 yrs and don't plan to either... Hoping more people will give this method a go...

Hey @Hot2na , glad to hear more ppl using this system. Post some pictures!!! of this anemone you have and your tank here, I always wanted to have a tank bigger enough to have one of those and host dozens of ocellaris

The substrate is a good point. I bought that caribsea "coarse" aragonite but I was a bit disappointed, because it's not really course. I would definitely try in a next tank xlcrushed corals and shells.

Do you dose sometime like kalkwasser? Or this calcium reactor media you added makes everything stable?


This hobby is also a business and I understand companies making money as everybody needs. But I'm curious when over the years jaubert systems lost its credibility so bad to Berlin systems and why there is so little information about it, if it's cheaper and as reliable as others.
It's like taking the red or blue pill on the movie matrix

 

[Hot2na]

Hey @Hot2na , glad to hear more ppl using this system. Post some pictures!!! of this anemone you have and your tank here, I always wanted to have a tank bigger enough to have one of those and host dozens of ocellaris

The substrate is a good point. I bought that caribsea "coarse" aragonite but I was a bit disappointed, because it's not really course. I would definitely try in a next tank xlcrushed corals and shells.

Do you dose sometime like kalkwasser? Or this calcium reactor media you added makes everything stable?


This hobby is also a business and I understand companies making money as everybody needs. But I'm curious when over the years jaubert systems lost its credibility so bad to Berlin systems and why there is so little information about it, if it's cheaper and as reliable as others.
It's like taking the red or blue pill on the movie matrix

try to do some research on : dick perrin @ tropicorium back in the day ...aragonite ran his whole coral operation..no dosing ..I dont dose anything ..NSW, and aragonite bed over a plenum... like the old prego spaghetti sauce commercial used to say - " it's in there " !

 

[besskurz]

I noticed in the pics that you have an airstone in the under gravel filter tube. I'm curious as to whether you are actually running that to pull the water up from the plenum--like a normal under gravel filter?

From what I've read of the Jaubert system you shouldn't do that but, instead, leave the plenum water sealed off under the sand/gravel bed. I've seen reports that, when run like an under gravel filter, you can't get nitrates down because it prevents the proper set up of anoxic zones. He did use air stones for water movement though--but not connected to the plenum.

I'm planning to set one up in a 125 gal refugium for my retirement build. Best tank I ever had ran a plenum back in the day--2001 to 2004. Even deployed for a year and the tank flourished.

Also, did you stick to the 2-5mm grain size suggestion? I'm planning a base layer of this size but had ungraded sand (0.5-5mm I think) for the top. Now I'm wondering if I should stick to the 2-5mm only. No idea what I'd use the several hundred pounds of aragonite sand for otherwise!

I used Southdown aragonite play sand the last time around and that definitely had a grain size smaller than 2mm.

About the sand size, as I mentioned, it's caribsea aragonite course. Size wise I would say it's from 5mm to less. I would go with crushed corals and shells next time or a sand which is course for real. For the top layer i used a very fine sand. In general I would stick to the guide:

I'm really pulling water from plenum to the surface but in a low flow. Now you made me think twice why I'm doing this. Really thanks for this question.
I was watching his speech again. In 18:40 he really mentions that the airlift was disconnected. Not really as it is in the diagram which I'm following.


Maybe.. that's why I'm seeing a slightly increase in nitrates. I think I could shut the air pump and check in a couple days the nitrate levels again.
@Subsea, what do you think? Where you pulling water from plenum or not?

 

[besskurz]

I feel attacked :face-with-tears-of-joy: Hopefully i won't be one of those persons.

Well, i 'd be glad if i had read it before setting up my bowl, anyway for now i have only sand in it so i'm not gonna kill anyone except some bacterias.


Also, maybe just the air pump without the air stone? So it makes big bubbles? I was also hesitating with a super mini pump 500L/h.

There is a lot of examples of aquariums doing well only with an air bubbler / stones. I think it's a matter of which corals you will add and they requirements. But at this point I'm more guessing than anything. @brandon429 Is a better source.

Since I lost corals at the time I was only with the airstone I got a bit worried that something was wrong with flow. But again.. I might be blaming the airstone when the problem was simply adding corals too soon.
But anyway I'm happy with the circulation pump

 

[Hot2na]

About the sand size, as I mentioned, it's caribsea aragonite course. Size wise I would say it's from 5mm to less. I would go with crushed corals and shells next time or a sand which is course for real. For the top layer i used a very fine sand. In general I would stick to the guide:

I'm really pulling water from plenum to the surface but in a low flow. Now you made me think twice why I'm doing this. Really thanks for this question.
I was watching his speech again. In 18:40 he really mentions that the airlift was disconnected. Not really as it is in the diagram which I'm following.


Maybe.. that's why I'm seeing a slightly increase in nitrates. I think I could shut the air pump and check in a couple days the nitrate levels again.
@Subsea, what do you think? Where you pulling water from plenum or not?

u want no flow being pulled through with that airstone.. cap it and watch the nitrates go down....

 

[Subsea]

About the sand size, as I mentioned, it's caribsea aragonite course. Size wise I would say it's from 5mm to less. I would go with crushed corals and shells next time or a sand which is course for real. For the top layer i used a very fine sand. In general I would stick to the guide:

I'm really pulling water from plenum to the surface but in a low flow. Now you made me think twice why I'm doing this. Really thanks for this question.
I was watching his speech again. In 18:40 he really mentions that the airlift was disconnected. Not really as it is in the diagram which I'm following.


Maybe.. that's why I'm seeing a slightly increase in nitrates. I think I could shut the air pump and check in a couple days the nitrate levels again.
@Subsea, what do you think? Where you pulling water from plenum or not?

I pump water into plenum. It is reverse flow undergravel filter to maximize oxydation chemistry. I do use an air stone in display to maintain high gas exchange when lights go out reducing oxygen in bulk water.

 

[Hot2na]

I pump water into plenum. It is reverse flow undergravel filter to maximize oxydation chemistry. I do use an air stone in display to maintain high gas exchange when lights go out reducing oxygen in bulk water.

Who cares what you do ? ...you are NOT running a true jaubert system ,,,and from what I can see from some of your old post going back on other forums-you didn't set it up right then either.. I've called you out on this in the past .. your current setup is more like Paul B's ...

 

[Subsea]

On my 75G tank, I ran Jaubert plenum with 6” dsb for 20 years. Back in those days, we were told to maximize denitrification. Since these days, with a very mature biofilter, I add ammonia to keep up with nitrogen demand of system. Julian Sprung in Reef Aquarium Volume 3 “nitrification & denitrification happen in close proximity of each other“.

Lets park here. There are many differrent reducing bacteria types that work in absence of oxygen and they grow very slowly: nitrification bacteria take 20 minutes to double in population whereas denitrification bacteria take 16 hours to double in population.

Faculative bacteria are microbes that do both nitrification and denitrification chemistry. The reason Jaubert used large grains in sandbed was to extend the oxygen gradient deeper into the sandbed into the Facultative Zone. As a municipal waste water superintendent, we used oxydation ponds and anarobic digesters for this purpose.

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[Hot2na]

There's alot of examples of "wrong" ways to set up a plenum...here's an example in this video...although this ?may? work.. it breaks up the void space underneath the substrate into many mini plenums..

 

[Hot2na]

this one sorta gets it right - But I would have layed those pvc pipe pieces sideways instead of upright ,,and used a smaller diameter pipe like 1/2-3/4".. laying them sideways you utilize and tie together the entire void space beneath the plenum grid...

 

[Clarkjw2002]

I was planning 80lbs Florida crushed coral on top of my under gravel plates--to give me an inch or so of depth--and then 4 to 6 inches aragonite sand for the top DSB style. Then I came across this: jaubert-s-method-the-monaco-system-defined-and-refined. Note they argue for limited rock to maximize sand bed surface area.

I've been going back and forth on using the airlift tubes (my DSB back in the day just had the plenum and no air tubes). My original thought was to have the bed deeper and use the airlift tubes to double surface area--but then I essentially have no plenum (because I am pulling water through the bottom--in one tube, out the other was my thought).

My other thought was to leave the tubes connected to outside air above the water line but static. So if any hydrogen sulfide was building up it could diffuse to the outside air. I'd have carbon on the end to hopefully mitigate smells.

Hadn't thought about pushing water down then let it diffuse up through sand though. SubSea, you have more info posted here (assume so)? Know you used to be on ReefCentral too. I'll search as time allows, thanks!

Great discussion.

 

[Subsea]

So happy to see a thread like this ! .. Jaubert system got a bad rap yrs ago ,probably cause the big companies in the hobby knew it was a super simple method to effectively keep a reef ..and keep it well ! I have been employing this method for over 30 yrs now..and though I've tried other reefing methods over my 46 yrs in this hobby - I always keep coming back to the Jaubert plenum system ..It's almost bulletproof if you set it up right and it gets better as it ages ..Most of the bunk you hear about this method is all due to people who DONT set it up right ..Hydrogen sulfide claims for example are mainly due to people not using the right grade of substrate or depth..If you do it right - the plenum method deveolped by Jaubert will give you YEARS of stable , trouble free reefing ! .. on my current tank which houses some anemones which are considered "very difficult to keep " (stichtodactyla Gigantea) by many in the reef hobby .. everything is thriving and growing in a zero to near zero nitrate environment .. I have NOT done any water changes in the last 2 yrs and don't plan to either... Hoping more people will give this method a go...

Glad for your success with Jaubert Plenum. I used mine for 20 years. @Paul B and I are friend for > 10 years and I copied his reverse flow after he copied it from African Ciclid fish keepers. I especially like a fully oxygenated sandbed to process waste (detritus food) from large fish populations.

With respect to plenum void, this is a cryptic refugium that favors, in time, the “sponge loop” chemistry. I doubt that cryptic sponges care what direction the water comes from. However, detritus in substrate is pulled deeper into anoxic zone which developed h2s. For twenty years I watched hydrogen sulfide line migrate up & down.

 

[Hot2na]

I was planning 80lbs Florida crushed coral on top of my under gravel plates--to give me an inch or so of depth--and then 4 to 6 inches aragonite sand for the top DSB style. Then I came across this: jaubert-s-method-the-monaco-system-defined-and-refined. Note they argue for limited rock to maximize sand bed surface area.

I've been going back and forth on using the airlift tubes (my DSB back in the day just had the plenum and no air tubes). My original thought was to have the bed deeper and use the airlift tubes to double surface area--but then I essentially have no plenum (because I am pulling water through the bottom--in one tube, out the other was my thought).

My other thought was to leave the tubes connected to outside air above the water line but static. So if any hydrogen sulfide was building up it could diffuse to the outside air. I'd have carbon on the end to hopefully mitigate smells.

Hadn't thought about pushing water down then let it diffuse up through sand though. SubSea, you have more info posted here (assume so)? Know you used to be on ReefCentral too. I'll search as time allows, thanks!

Great discussion.

4 in on top of your ugf plates is all that is needed to denitrify.. you can go deeper if u wish. U dont need uplift tubes at all.. the plenum will establish itself without .. what Dick Perrin at tropicorium used to do - is start the ugf with uplift tubes working - then cap it after a few weeks.. but you dont need to do that ..Fwiw : 6" of FCC right on the bottom of the tank with NO plenum will also denitrify .. I have tried it before , as recommended by Rick and Betsey Greenfield at carib sea..I got alot of useful info from them back in the day ..

 

[Subsea]

“My other thought was to leave the tubes connected to outside air above the water line but static. So if any hydrogen sulfide was building up it could diffuse to the outside air. I'd have carbon on the end to hopefully mitigate smells.”

Clark,
When I operated Jaubert Plenum, I often stirred top of sandbed and sometimes smelled slight rotten egg of hydrogen sulfide.

As a subsea engineer in deepwater offshore drilling, hydrogen sulfide, as a gas, can be detected by smell in ppb and at 20 ppm you lose the sense of smell before you die.. Not going to happen in our small reef tanks.

 

[Hot2na]

When I operated Jaubert Plenum, I often stirred top of sandbed and sometimes smelled slight rotten egg of hydrogen sulfide.

More proof that you didnt have it setup right.. I never stir the top layer .. it is coarse and full of old shells and coral fragments.. It is Teeming with life ..Amphipods,small shrimp , spaghetti worms, bristle worms, etc.. Not dirty and NO signs of hydrogen sulfide buildup anywhere.. Use the right grade of substrate and depth and you will NEVER have hydrogen sulfide...