Just Another SPS Color Thread

[celebrityovernight]

Yup I've tried acro power, fuel, and Red Sea a and b. And it's definitely a head ache for sure. I agree some do look great but others are not to my liking. There is no algae in the display tank only in my refugium. Aside from my fish feeding three times a day and occasional coral feeding at night I'm at a loss. And this all seems to contradict what other people have said...increasing the headache lol.

Well honestly, it's all trial and error. It's so hard to really know what's going on. We can only assume based on signs and symptoms but you'll never really know. I know for a fact I've had tanks that succeeded and tanks that never took off despite me not changing much. There's just so many factors involved. Have you changed Rodi recently? Maybe try that and maybe change to a different brand of salt. Just don't make too many changes so you can track what helped or isn't helping.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Well honestly, it's all trial and error. It's so hard to really know what's going on. We can only assume based on signs and symptoms but you'll never really know. I know for a fact I've had tanks that succeeded and tanks that never took off despite me not changing much. There's just so many factors involved. Have you changed Rodi recently? Maybe try that and maybe change to a different brand of salt. Just don't make too many changes so you can track what helped or isn't helping.

I understand. It's never easy to diagnose what is going on in our tanks. It's only ever educated guesses and hoping it works. No the RODI has not been changed that recently. Can't exactly remember when so maybe I can look in to that. What brand of salt might you suggest? I know much of the time it's all marketing. I am also thinking of changing my two part. I'm thinking that should be done first before a salt change. And yes I always change slowly because I know nothin quick it good in a reef tank.

 

[celebrityovernight]

I understand. It's never easy to diagnose what is going on in our tanks. It's only ever educated guesses and hoping it works. No the RODI has not been changed that recently. Can't exactly remember when so maybe I can look in to that. What brand of salt might you suggest? I know much of the time it's all marketing. I am also thinking of changing my two part. I'm thinking that should be done first before a salt change. And yes I always change slowly because I know nothin quick it good in a reef tank.

I've always had good results with brightwells salt. Mixes really fast, clean and clear.

 

[mcarroll]

Let me say what I already said in another way.

Consider that your corals might be happy like this - in fact, so far as you can tell they are. Keep it just as simple as it is and don't change a thing.

All that would be required is a slight change in your point of view. [emoji41][emoji3]

Then instead of focusing on making some change or another the one person says do but two say don't, you can spend your time in observation and making fine tune ups along the way, like trying additional feedings or new foods, etc.

Think of it as productive procrastination. You are in a good place to do that.

 

[ifarmer]

I've always had good results with brightwells salt. Mixes really fast, clean and clear.

me too. really like the Neomarine salt. mix really fast and never become harden like rock compare to other salts

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Let me say what I already said in another way.

Consider that your corals might be happy like this - in fact, so far as you can tell they are. Keep it just as simple as it is and don't change a thing.

All that would be required is a slight change in your point of view. [emoji41][emoji3]

Then instead of focusing on making some change or another the one person says do but two say don't, you can spend your time in observation and making fine tune ups along the way, like trying additional feedings or new foods, etc.

Think of it as productive procrastination. You are in a good place to do that.

So if all of my corals are happy does that mean that all of the particular corals that I have purchased are just lackluster in general? Or that I just haven't purchased the nicer SPS? If thats true than I won't stress so much over trying to turn a turd into a diamond. All I know is that Ive seen some really nice pieces in person at a store in Orlando and hopefully when I'm up there this week I will get to go to WWC and see what they have there but Ive heard they have some amazing stuff.

I agree that I shouldn't make every change that everyone tells me to do but the reason I reached out was because Ive been at a loss in what to do. Ive tried many things on my own based on research and observation over the past years and I have yet to get the results that I am looking for. I understand that no one knows my tank better than me but I felt I needed to reach out to the community and hopefully get a few veteran opinions and go from there. Other than that I just don't know which direction to go.

 

[1stNoel]

Anyone else wishing their SPS looked that "bad" or is it just me? :)

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Your corals look plenty healthy to me. And I think you are definitely feeding enough. They do not look like starving sps to my eyes - and I have had to dose nitrate before in systems with high coral volume and low fish loads. It works incredibly well, but I don't think that's what you need.

My best advice would be lower the led intensity a bit, but more so begin to tweak the spectrum. I have tanks that will never color certain sps 'right' under Hydras. I have also witnessed tanks explode with growth and color when swapped from Hydras to primary T5ho lighting. The spectral width and diffusion of t5 is really king for making sps pop to the viewer in person. Nothing better in my mind. Leds can get great results but you'll need to play with the settings to really tune it in to what your particular corals are needing to color. Remember, corals in the ocean are plenty healthy while looking tan/white. Some are crazy colors but many are not and they do just fine. Your nutrients could probably cause some change in appearance, but I don't think adjusting them is going to get you the look you're after. Switch over to the dark side.... Go T5ho! lol

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Your corals look plenty healthy to me. And I think you are definitely feeding enough. They do not look like starving sps to my eyes - and I have had to dose nitrate before in systems with high coral volume and low fish loads. It works incredibly well, but I don't think that's what you need.

My best advice would be lower the led intensity a bit, but more so begin to tweak the spectrum. I have tanks that will never color certain sps 'right' under Hydras. I have also witnessed tanks explode with growth and color when swapped from Hydras to primary T5ho lighting. The spectral width and diffusion of t5 is really king for making sps pop to the viewer in person. Nothing better in my mind. Leds can get great results but you'll need to play with the settings to really tune it in to what your particular corals are needing to color. Remember, corals in the ocean are plenty healthy while looking tan/white. Some are crazy colors but many are not and they do just fine. Your nutrients could probably cause some change in appearance, but I don't think adjusting them is going to get you the look you're after. Switch over to the dark side.... Go T5ho! lol

Yes I think I agree with the fact that they are not starving. My system seems pretty well balanced in nutrients according to my observations and tests. And my corals are definitely healthy! I don't know what classifies as good growth but I definitely feel that my pieces grow fairly well.

Yes I know all about the struggles of the LED's. To be 100% honest if I could start over with new lights I wouldn't even consider them; theres way too many options regarding spectrum and if you aren't an expert you may not know what exactly goes into each spectrum. Ive tinkered with these lights for the three years Ive had them, never finding the perfect spectrum. Id tweak, wait a few months, no luck, tweak and still nothing. That is why I added 4 supplemental T5's to my setup via retro-fit kits. Definitely fills out the tank more to my liking and Im sure is helping with growth. And yes I know all about the corals in the ocean, LOL. Im a fisherman, a snorkeler, I live in Florida and Im graduating with my BS in biological sciences and moving on to study marine biology so Im quite familiar with out brown corals here. Although I don't want to see any white out there, the bleaching is bad enough as it is right now.

Trust me if I wasn't so worried about replacing my investment I would go to T5's in a heartbeat. Ive lusted after that ATI Sunpower forever now and Id love to have it. But at this point its only an additional two T5's because I don't believe the 8-bulb will fit in my canopy. Thats part of my struggle. Will two additional bulbs make the difference when losing my LED's? short answer is I don't know. Maybe if I got the Sunpower I could hang it much closer to the water level but I still don't know what the benefits would be. Im sure it would be helpful seeing as my T5's are 12 inches AWL. If you care to way in the the T5 idea feel free Im always open to opinions and suggestions. And as for the dark side, it seems to me more lie the light side lol.

Anyone else wishing their SPS looked that "bad" or is it just me? :)

I understand I may be exaggerating a bit but that doesn't mean that there aren't tanks out there that can blow mine away. I don't think my corals are bad I just want to improve them and be one of those tanks that I look at and just go "WOW".

 

[gettaReef]

Yeah I hear ya regarding lighting....with LED technology where it's at currently, I think the ideal setup for a reef tank is primarily T5 with supplemental leds for that "pop". Like the ati sunpower with reefbrites on the sides, that are on so many systems, or something similar to that effect. I also miss the look and meer power of MH but that option is hard to justify with its high energy output

 

[Big Tuna]

I've had the same issue. Bring your phosphates up to about .03 and bring your nitrates up to 5-20 ppms. I've notices better growth and extreme color with high nitrates. I don't reccomend exceeding 20ppms.

I am also in the process of ditching my LEDs. I tried to suppliment them with t5s and it just is not the same. I am going back to all t5s and maybe suppliment them with a Artinic reef brite.

 

[celebrityovernight]

I've had the same issue. Bring your phosphates up to about .03 and bring your nitrates up to 5-20 ppms. I've notices better growth and extreme color with high nitrates. I don't reccomend exceeding 20ppms.

I am also in the process of ditching my LEDs. I tried to suppliment them with t5s and it just is not the same. I am going back to all t5s and maybe suppliment them with a Artinic reef brite.

T5 is definitely where it's at. I know you can get some amazing colors with leds, but I still think there's a tiny bit of something missing. Leds do a great job with displaying colors and showing out colors in the corals, but I definitely think t5s develop colors that leds just can't.

Has anyone running leds ever gotten a frag from someone who is running all t5s? The frag will look stunning when you bring it home to an led system; even better than how it looks in the t5 system. But give it several days to weeks, and it just feels like the frag lost its ooomph that it had at first. I know there are a million factors at play here, but at the same time, i think it has alot to do with the lighting.

T5s as the primary light source with leds as supplement is my all time favorite set up.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Yeah I hear ya regarding lighting....with LED technology where it's at currently, I think the ideal setup for a reef tank is primarily T5 with supplemental leds for that "pop". Like the ati sunpower with reefbrites on the sides, that are on so many systems, or something similar to that effect. I also miss the look and meer power of MH but that option is hard to justify with its high energy output

So do you feel a switch to full T5 would be helpful? Even with the 4 bulbs I've got on there already? If money was no object than I wouldn't even be questioning it but that's not my situation Lol. Not saying I'm going to run right out and buy a Sunpower but it's something I've already thought about before.

I've had the same issue. Bring your phosphates up to about .03 and bring your nitrates up to 5-20 ppms. I've notices better growth and extreme color with high nitrates. I don't reccomend exceeding 20ppms.

I am also in the process of ditching my LEDs. I tried to suppliment them with t5s and it just is not the same. I am going back to all t5s and maybe suppliment them with a Artinic reef brite.

How will the higher nitrates affect the corals that are decently colored or those that actually seem a little brown? I feel like I have a mix of lighter colored, properly colored and a little brown in my tank. And again I'm with you on wanting to switch to T5s.

 

[markalot]

A Switch to T5 might help in the long run but no quick fix. A combination of LED and T5 is probably the best bet.

I wanted to add my comments based on the last couple of pages. I will respectfully disagree with some points others have made, but that doesn't make me right and them wrong. :D

LUX is centered around what our eyes are most sensitive too, which is green. If you had a T5 fixture, for example, and replaced a blue+ bulb with an AquaBlue special the LUX would rise dramatically because the ABS has a big peak in green light. LUX is higher, it looks brighter, but as far as the corals are concerned PAR is close to the same (ABS is higher par due to more red in the spectrum). All that said, I do thing LUX meters can be used to judge changes your eyes might not detect, just understand some changes might not register. Increasing blue while decreasing white would show a drop in LUX, for example. while PAR would probably increase.

One of the things I don't like about most LED fixtures is how much PAR they can put in a tank and still look dim to our eyes. This is why most folks fry corals with LED. Not a thing wrong with LED, and dialed in the results can be amazing, but hard to dial in.

As far as color, the Ponape bird and orange digitata are showing signs of too much light. The ponape is an odd ball because it actually prefers lower light to look really good. Turning down the whites may help. Other than that I would say coral chice is the main issue with color. I have a lot of unnamed acros in my tank from random LFS frags and all have drab colors. Acros I purchased with known good coloration might not be as colorful as I want but they are light years ahead of these random frags. IN MY OPINION. :)

My tank for reference. 160 gallon 6 footer, MP40's on either side and two RW-15's in back to help reduce the center dead area, which is not that dead but then I only have 18" front to back.

My colors look best when I dose nitrates to keep them around 5.

 

[Myka]

generally i glue corals on pieces of rubble or fist sized rocks while they grow or encrust. during that period i experiment going higher or lower. the coral will react during this experimentation as i get it where i want the colors to be. usually it takes 6 months or more for it to outgrow the rubble. (plenty of time to find the sweet spot)

I like this. This is what I do too except I use a small ball of epoxy. It is usually easy to remove the coral where the epoxy meets the rock.

 

[mcarroll]

[...]LUX is centered around what our eyes are most sensitive too, which is green. If you had a T5 fixture, for example, and replaced a blue+ bulb with an AquaBlue special the LUX would rise dramatically because the ABS has a big peak in green light. LUX is higher, it looks brighter, but as far as the corals are concerned PAR is close to the same (ABS is higher par due to more red in the spectrum). All that said, I do thing LUX meters can be used to judge changes your eyes might not detect, just understand some changes might not register. Increasing blue while decreasing white would show a drop in LUX, for example. while PAR would probably increase.[...]

All that usually gets said at some point after I bring up lux. And it is largely true, just mostly not relevant for us. Just for fun you should do a search on "lux" and my username. [emoji1]

In a nutshell, there is no reason for us to worry about any of those complexities or think that a $300 meter is necessary. E.g. Do you worry about the inaccuracies of your Salifert calcium test kit...because in truth it's horribly inaccurate. No, because they work great for our purposes! [emoji3]

For $15, why not get a lux meter for yourself and experiment? And as I always mention, if you are really in need of PAR numbers you can even obtain a conversion factor for your lux meter and your lights.

Based on the common limits of LED design and the wide range of acceptable lux, the $15 lux meter works great to set the overall brightness of your lights. As you alluded, it's 100% better than guessing!

To see color changes, you really need a different kind of meter. A fairly expensive one if you want to measure those color changes. You can sorta achieve this function with a student/$30 spectrometer like the Project STAR spectrometer I have.

Which gives you a view like this:

Can you tell which wavelengths are weak in this light?

And since I am posting pictures now, here's the lux meter:

 

[mcarroll]

For something like $40 you can give a very reasonable assessment of a given lighting system! [emoji106][emoji41][emoji3]

 

[Brandon McHenry]

A Switch to T5 might help in the long run but no quick fix. A combination of LED and T5 is probably the best bet.

I wanted to add my comments based on the last couple of pages. I will respectfully disagree with some points others have made, but that doesn't make me right and them wrong. :D

LUX is centered around what our eyes are most sensitive too, which is green. If you had a T5 fixture, for example, and replaced a blue+ bulb with an AquaBlue special the LUX would rise dramatically because the ABS has a big peak in green light. LUX is higher, it looks brighter, but as far as the corals are concerned PAR is close to the same (ABS is higher par due to more red in the spectrum). All that said, I do thing LUX meters can be used to judge changes your eyes might not detect, just understand some changes might not register. Increasing blue while decreasing white would show a drop in LUX, for example. while PAR would probably increase.

One of the things I don't like about most LED fixtures is how much PAR they can put in a tank and still look dim to our eyes. This is why most folks fry corals with LED. Not a thing wrong with LED, and dialed in the results can be amazing, but hard to dial in.

As far as color, the Ponape bird and orange digitata are showing signs of too much light. The ponape is an odd ball because it actually prefers lower light to look really good. Turning down the whites may help. Other than that I would say coral chice is the main issue with color. I have a lot of unnamed acros in my tank from random LFS frags and all have drab colors. Acros I purchased with known good coloration might not be as colorful as I want but they are light years ahead of these random frags. IN MY OPINION. :)

My tank for reference. 160 gallon 6 footer, MP40's on either side and two RW-15's in back to help reduce the center dead area, which is not that dead but then I only have 18" front to back.

My colors look best when I dose nitrates to keep them around 5.

Trust me I understand the struggles of dialing in LED's all too well. Not the easiest thing to do. Theres always a question of what looks best to our eye and what is best for the coral. I like bluer lights but some of my pinks and oranges don't looks as good under the blue. Its been very tricky and thats one of the issues I have with my LED's.

As for coral choice that may be half of my problem and I wouldn't even know it because my LFS doesn't even know what they're selling in the first place. Maybe a nicer piece may grow up to look nicer than the ones I have. However I do have three ORA pieces and they are the shortcake, the ponape and the hawkins. Overall they don't look that great so I guess I can use them as my indicator because they are quality corals and I know what they should look like.

As for the nitrates I am more than willing to try them seeing as that is the predominant opinion. How can I know if my system will handle them well though? Or is there no other way than just doing a small dose and see how things react?

 

[jvb89]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/potassium-nitrate-spectracide-stump-remover-dosing-steps.215730/

 

[Brandon McHenry]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/potassium-nitrate-spectracide-stump-remover-dosing-steps.215730/

Very informative thread! I like Russ' thread as well. Both have great information and examples.