"Just say NO" to meds

[lion king]

I hope I don't come off like a know it all, posting all this info on caring for predatory fish. My usual disclaimer; I am no internet expert, have imaginary letters behind my name, or claim what I am saying is 100%. These are just my observations over 3 decades and dozens if not hundreds of examples.

Using medication is a complicated, risky, and a confusing proposition regardless of the species. I witness so much advice freely given about the usage of medications, you really have to dig into the source to find the ridiculous truth. The success rate of using any med in so minimal, you will wonder if it is even worth it. Prophylactic treatment is mostly a false security blanket. The new(very old) wonder drug CP; the only success I've ever seen has been in prophylactic treatment, because there was likely no issue before the fact.

Treating the predatory fish I keep, is even more of a risk. For some reasons lions, scorps, and eels specifically don't handle meds well. I suspect the same in anglers but their lifespan is so short it's hard to positively place blame. We'll use lions, scorps,and eels as the example, but I suspect there are many more. I have cut open many lions out of curiosity and found internal organs in many states of damage. I have seen hemorrhages and states of liquification. This follows after death shortly after or during the use of meds. Some lions and eels have survived as long as a year or so and I found hemorrhages similar to that of the ones that died during or shortly after treatment.

The only meds I've used and had long term success was Praziquantel and Metronidazole. I have never been able to treat scorps with anything successful, every time I had to pull the meds. If I let them run it's course, they all died shortly afterwards. COPPER is an absolute NO-NO, even if they survive the course of treatment, they will not survive long afterwards. The use of antibiotics I rank right up there with copper. When it comes to treating less than life threatening bacterial infections, well fed with live foods and pristine water conditions are a much better course. After comparing so many examples, I never saw any differences in recovery comparing the healthy regime to the antibiotics.

I am not the expert in meds, and I'm not alone. Proper diagnoses and dosage, understanding displacement and absorption. The average hobbyist has such a low percentage of success. And to all the experts out there, even when claiming success; they never tell you the fish died weeks, months, or at the most a year later. They just will not admit this, even when I have seen it with my own eyes. I've confronted the individuals, and they just change the subject or stand there stupidly in silence. The use of meds in our hobby is really no different than the use of meds on humans; so just think about that.

Just something to think about......

 

[Lasse]

+ 100

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Drendo]

I lost a Black Tang to copper. Never again.

I’m happy to buy my fish from DD, who treats with copper, but once in my possession I will observe in my QT for as long as necessary, but will not treat with copper.

 

[Averhoeven]

I say this not to brag, but as a data point since you mentioned not having much data on anglers. I've had mine since April 2019 and put him through my usual QT since I couldn't find data either way. That is TTM with Prazi and metro. He seemed no worse for wear during the process and he was tiny. Like pinky nail tiny. Here he is today

 

[lion king]

I say this not to brag, but as a data point since you mentioned not having much on anglers. I've had mine since April 2019 and put him through my usual QT since I couldn't find data either way. That is TTM with Prazi and metro. He seemed no worse for wear during the process and he was tiny. Like pinky nail tiny.

TTm is tricky because they can gulp air and that can be deadly, so care has to be taken there. The main reason I can't give a good read, is because the lifespan of all the anglers I've studeied has been so short. I could never tell if their death was caused by the results of organ damage caused by meds not. Well cared for lions and scorps can be with you over 10 years, i've seen so many die a year or so after QT treatment and saw the organ damage with my own eyes. I've kept anglers for as long as 3 years, but most I've seen die with a few months to a year anyway.

 

[piranhaman00]

Are you saying medication any fish is bad? You only use lion fish and eels as examples which are already known to not tolerate copper.

 

[lion king]

Are you saying medication any fish is bad? You only use lion fish and eels as examples which are already known to not tolerate copper.

It's probably best to not, unless that is your last resort. I'm talking lions, scorps, and eels mainly because that's my thing. But I see higher than usual mortality rates in all fish that have been treated with meds. Prophylactic treatment is probably not a good idea, although I do understand treating for internal parasites, especially is the species that seem to be most effected. Lions fall into that category, as well as angels and wrasses, likely tangs as well. One of the most respected lfs here told me that so few people succeed with medicating that she rarely even advises on the subject. The people I know that do prophylactic treatment and have a pharmacy at their homes, rarely have fish live that long, so there's that.

 

[piranhaman00]

It's probably best to not, unless that is your last resort. I'm talking lions, scorps, and eels mainly because that's my thing. But I see higher than usual mortality rates in all fish that have been treated with meds. Prophylactic treatment is probably not a good idea, although I do understand treating for internal parasites, especially is the species that seem to be most effected. Lions fall into that category, as well as angels and wrasses, likely tangs as well. One of the most respected lfs here told me that so few people succeed with medicating that she rarely even advises on the subject. The people I know that do prophylactic treatment and have a pharmacy at their homes, rarely have fish live that long, so there's that.

I also think the med in question is important.

But I see higher than usual mortality rates in all fish that have been treated with meds.

Anecdotal. My fish are all treated and living. I would like to think most people on this forum QT with meds vs not. I think people skip QT and get lucky for a while and then think QT is “pointless”. Getting hit with infestation of something changes that viewpoint.

Now I 100% agree that eels/lions ect do not do well with meds, proven through many accounts. I just don’t buy the all fish don’t tolerate medications. I can’t prove either way of course but my evidence leads me to believe meds work.

Meds must be used correctly of course. Your average lfs goer isn’t going to medicate correctly. The fish could have died with Meds because of poor fish keeping outside of the medication.


Just my thoughts

 

[Plecosam]

Personally just like in life, medication is often very, very over used. People see a small change and dump all kinds of chemicals into their tanks.

 

[lion king]

I also think the med in question is important.



Anecdotal. My fish are all treated and living. I would like to think most people on this forum QT with meds vs not. I think people skip QT and get lucky for a while and then think QT is “pointless”. Getting hit with infestation of something changes that viewpoint.

Now I 100% agree that eels/lions ect do not do well with meds, proven through many accounts. I just don’t buy the all fish don’t tolerate medications. I can’t prove either way of course but my
evidence leads me to believe meds work.

Meds must be used correctly of course. Your average lfs goer isn’t going to medicate correctly. The fish could have died with Meds because of poor fish keeping outside of the medication.


Just my thoughts

One of my main points is that it is just beyond most of us to handle. But another question, how many fish have you loss that you medicated, either during or shortly after medicating, or losing them way short of their expected lifespan.

I know people who have; lets say 10 fish in their reef that they treated their QT protocol and all these fish have been with them for years. But along the way they have literally loss dozens. People I know that had a ick break out, forget about velvet; they have 1 out of 5 survive. You see I have fouind that most people only remember and count the successes, but conveniently forget about the losses. And if you consider the big picture in percentages; you have to count the losses with the successes. And when I do this; there are way, way more losses.

 

[Billldg]

To each their own. I will never say someone that doesn't use meds to pre-actively treat their fish is wrong. We all have our own ways to add fish to our DT. I will say that I can, with out a doubt, say that Ick and Velvet is not in my tank. I pre-actively treat my fish before they go into my DT. If I see my fish with a blemish I know that it is exactly that, a blemish. I will never say that someone using the TTM is wrong. We all have our own ways to combat issues. I will say that issues with fish coming from stores and distributors are on the rise though.

 

[Hugh Mann]

Excellent write up!
I will have an interesting experiment to observe over the next however long by the sounds of it then, my fish treated with copper vs my eel that was left untreated but moved to a new system. (Doing just great BTW, thanks!)

This however leaves me a little hesitant to stock more lions and Eels in the future, as the two meds you mentioned, prazi and metro, are unavailable in Canada, so I would be left with sweet nothing in the event of an outbreak.
What are your recommendations then for treating without those two, just a good diet and clean water? TTM if all else fails?
What about internal parasites, recommendations for treating those?

 

[lion king]

To each their own. I will never say someone that doesn't use meds to pre-actively treat their fish is wrong. We all have our own ways to add fish to our DT. I will say that I can, with out a doubt, say that Ick and Velvet is not in my tank. I pre-actively treat my fish before they go into my DT. If I see my fish with a blemish I know that it is exactly that, a blemish. I will never say that someone using the TTM is wrong. We all have our own ways to combat issues. I will say that issues with fish coming from stores and distributors are on the rise though.

The main point of my thread was to address the issue of using meds with lions, scorps, and eels. Unless in very poor health all of these species are resistant to ick and velvet. I have even transferred eels from ick and velvet tanks and had no transfer.

The safest way to qt these guys would just be 6 weeks of observation, prazi and metro in case of internal parasites, and only treat life threatening bacterial infections, otherwise let it run it's course..

 

[Billldg]

The main point of my thread was to address the issue of using meds with lions, scorps, and eels. Unless in very poor health all of these species are resistant to ick and velvet. I have even transferred eels from ick and velvet tanks and had no transfer.

The safest way to qt these guys would just be 6 weeks of observation, prazi and metro in case of internal parasites, and only treat life threatening bacterial infections, otherwise let it run it's course..

I understand. Trust me, I wish we didn't have to use any type of meds for any type of fish in our tanks, its not natural and can be very harmful.

 

[lion king]

Excellent write up!
I will have an interesting experiment to observe over the next however long by the sounds of it then, my fish treated with copper vs my eel that was left untreated but moved to a new system. (Doing just great BTW, thanks!)

This however leaves me a little hesitant to stock more lions and Eels in the future, as the two meds you mentioned, prazi and metro, are unavailable in Canada, so I would be left with sweet nothing in the event of an outbreak.
What are your recommendations then for treating without those two, just a good diet and clean water? TTM if all else fails?
What about internal parasites, recommendations for treating those?

I just touched on how I would qt lions, scorps and eels. Because these guys are so resistant to ick and velvet, because of their slime coating they have an almost impossible time attaching; TTM isn't even necessary. Just for your peace of mind, a 6 week observation would pass the fallow period you would otherwise observe for ick, and velvet is even shorter. Bacterial infections are possible, but most are superficial and would clear on their own, if giving time with optimum water conditions and proper nutrition. Your only real threat is internal parasites, i still don't know how you guys deal with that up there. So you would just have to observe, it would show up well before the 6 weeks observation ended, and then you would have to figure how to deal with it. Black market fish meds. After 6 weeks of observation a lion, scorp, or eel could be safely introduced to your dt.

@Hugh Mann , glad to hear things are going well.

 

[Hugh Mann]

Easy enough, assuming the fish is healthy to begin with. Will definitely be looking for lions down the road a ways.

I'm not even rightly sure myself, hasn't been an issue yet. Most of it is herbal or otherwise 'natural' based. I have some, but if I recall the bottle specifically calls out not to use on lions, scorps or eels.

 

[DaddyFish]

I have FOTs but I'm also very torn between meds vs. no-meds. So far in just under a year, I've battled Ich, Velvet, and Brook. There have been some successes but mostly a fish that's prone to disease (Powder Blue Tang) or a fish that's not in a happy environment (tank too small, uncomfortable with tank mates, competitive feeding, whatever) doesn't survive despite meticulous med usage when they do get sick. I would characterize the use of meds as a very fine line between killing the ailment and killing the fish.

At present, I am medicating my 55-gal QT tank with some puffers and clowns using one round of General Cure followed by Cupramine at minimal level (0.3). I've lost too many puffers already due to NO pre-meds and having parasites show up weeks after quarantine and shortly after placing them in a DT.

My Snowflake Eel received a 10-day QT with only Melafix and then moved to DT where she's been doing great.

Every time you handle a fish, every time you move a fish, every time you change a display or disturb their environment you run the risk of "triggering an event". I am almost to the point of running a cost analysis on treating Disease-A in Fish-B in my 55-gal QT, to see if it's more cost effective to anesthetize the fish and try a different one, versus attempting costly and nearly ineffective medications.

 

[lion king]

I have FOTs but I'm also very torn between meds vs. no-meds. So far in just under a year, I've battled Ich, Velvet, and Brook. There have been some successes but mostly a fish that's prone to disease (Powder Blue Tang) or a fish that's not in a happy environment (tank too small, uncomfortable with tank mates, competitive feeding, whatever) doesn't survive despite meticulous med usage when they do get sick. I would characterize the use of meds as a very fine line between killing the ailment and killing the fish.

At present, I am medicating my 55-gal QT tank with some puffers and clowns using one round of General Cure followed by Cupramine at minimal level (0.3). I've lost too many puffers already due to NO pre-meds and having parasites show up weeks after quarantine and shortly after placing them in a DT.

My Snowflake Eel received a 10-day QT with only Melafix and then moved to DT where she's been doing great.

Every time you handle a fish, every time you movery time you change a display or disturb their environment you run the risk of "triggering an event". I am almost to the point of running a cost analysis on treating Disease-A in Fish-B in my 55-gal QT, to see if it's more cost effective to anesthetize the fish and try a different one, versus attempting costly and nearly ineffective medications.

Puffers are another that do have a high rate of internal parasites, so even prophylactic treatment would not be out of the question, if you would not want to risk just observation.

Be careful with using a sub-therapeutic dose of copper, one theory I believe is that this can create even more viral strains of ick and velvet. If you are going to treat with copper, either do a therapeutic dose, or don't do it at all. This is how the lfs suppress disease just long enough for you to get them into your tank. AND puffers are another that don't take well to copper.

 

[DaddyFish]

Puffers are another that do have a high rate of internal parasites, so even prophylactic treatment would not be out of the question, if you would not want to risk just observation.

Be careful with using a sub-therapeutic dose of copper, one theory I believe is that this can create even more viral strains of ick and velvet. If you are going to treat with copper, either do a therapeutic dose, or don't do it at all. This is how the lfs suppress disease just long enough for you to get them into your tank. AND puffers are another that don't take well to copper.

Seachem states on their website/forum that (0.3) is the minimal effective copper level using Cupramine with (0.5) being optimal. They recommend (0.3) for puffers. I'm currently running (0.35) after dosing twice over 48-hours.
Hopefully this will prove to be a valid QT process for my puffers.

 

[DaddyFish]

...
The only meds I've used and had long term success was Praziquantel and Metronidazole. ...

Let me ask, what are your thoughts on Formalin? Do you carry the same NO, a great BIG NO, or a somewhat preferably No?
I ask this because what I believe to see in the multitude of fish meds nowadays, is everyone trying to create a "non-toxic" medication using herbs, antibiotics, whatever. Formalin seems to me to be "old school" and fortunately something the parasites rarely encounter in the wild and therefore have not established any resistance to.