Kalk or all for reef?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I feel like this is getting over complicated. A4R is a great product and it’s great to pair with water changes. My goal for each year is to do enough water changes to equal system volume. It has worked out great.

Chemistry is a challenging topic in reef aquaria, and the interest level in folks trying to understand it varies a lot. Some want to know everything about what they dose and what it is doing, and some just want a cookbook recipe to keep a great tank.

Neither way is wrong, but threads often involve both types of folks so can seem to both types to be misleadingly simplistic, or overly complicated.

 

[Reefahholic]

Chemistry is a challenging topic in reef aquaria, and the interest level in folks trying to understand it varies a lot. Some want to know everything about what they dose and what is is doing, and some just want a cookbook recipe to keep a great tank.

Neither way is wrong, but threads often involve both types of folks so can seem to both types to be misleadingly simplistic, or overly complicated.

Agreed.

 

[Reefahholic]

Let’s see some AFR ICP analysis w/o water change’s. Or do they encourage you to do water change’s?

 

[GARRIGA]

Because you said you will use ICP to supplement which doesn’t make sense unless you’re using that companies elements or another ICP company.



Since you’re not using the ICP company for elements where will you get them, and how will you determine the dose?



How will the ICP solve it if you’re not using their elements?

Why are you fixated on my using any single company’s product or the assumption I might care to be that exact. Might just add more K or more A then see what still misses and go find the most practical source for that. It’s chemistry. Don’t need to buy from any specific manufacturer.

Seems you are being too literal with reefing. That’s not been my experience when keeping any life form. I’ve learned it is best to work around trends vs trying to be an exact mad scientist. We have neither the precise testing nor knowledge to manage such a task. Plus I’d rather be enjoying my tank then bring a slave to it.

Good enough for government work. Good enough for me.

 

[rockyb]

Kalk is a mess for me, I dose using brs 2 part with doser. Independently dosing calc, mag, alk

 

[Spare time]

I feel like this is getting over complicated. A4R is a great product and it’s great to pair with water changes. My goal for each year is to do enough water changes to equal system volume. It has worked out great.

I figured this thread would have been answerable in a few sentences lol

 

[92Miata]

I don't agree. Kalk is a one part Calcium and Alkalinity; AFR is a one part Calcium, Alkalinity, and trace elements. They use different delivery methods to achieve the same results.

What are you trying to claim is the difference?

AFR is also carbon dosing.

They don't at all achieve the same results. They're very different.

 

[RedReefer]

I use both.

 

[Reefahholic]

Why are you fixated on my using any single company’s product or the assumption I might care to be that exact

You acted like you had a plan, I asked what the plan was, but there’s really no plan at all. Now you’re upset because AFR isn’t the “magic unicorn” you thought it was. I could care less what elements you use.

Might just add more K or more A then see what still misses and go find the most practical source for that.

That’s the whole point I was making and why I was asking about your plan. You CAN’T just add more A or more K. If you add more “A” because Bromine is depleted, then you also add more fluorine, iodine, lithium, molybdenum, selenium, and vanadium.

If you add more K, because barium is depleted, then you also add more chrome, cobalt, iron, copper, manganese, nickel, strontium and zinc. This is not even considering the ALK, CAL, and MAG you’ll be adding that are also in the bottles.

Seems you are being too literal with reefing.

I guess so, but most reefers I know are very literal, and will do about anything to have a nice tank. Probably why we are both having this conversation on a message board. If you don’t care about it, why are you so upset when I point out the problems with AFR.

We have neither the precise testing nor knowledge to manage such a task.

We definitely have very precise testing now. Better than we’ve had since the hobby started. I’d say being able to detect LLOD’s down to 0.05 ug/L and better is pretty darn good.


Maybe listen to Lou Ekus again and see if you missed something.?

 

[ClownSchool]

So I do wanna start dosing and I know I will have to eventually so I was wondering what would be the better pick? Kalk or all for reef? Does all for reef raise alk, calcium, and trace elements?

Kalkwasser is great for maintaining pH in addition to your Alk and Cal, but it will still require an additional dosing agent for trace elements (including Mag).
If you’re going to use All For Reef, I’d recommend using the liquid. The powder concentrate caused my tank major Calcium spikes (550-600 ppm) before I saw the results I needed with Alkalinity.
I’ve heard All For Reef is used as a supplement to Kalkwasser with success, but I have no personal experience with that approach.
In addition, any time I hear of an all in one solution, it sets off a red flag because everyone knowledgeable in this hobby usually starts by saying, “every tank is different.”
I add 40-50 ml of mag every month or more while a guy I know with the same sized system with similar stock adds 150-200 ml a month.

 

[Reefahholic]

any time I hear of an all in one solution, it sets off a red flag because everyone knowledgeable in this hobby usually starts by saying, “every tank is different.”

Bingo

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

AFR is also carbon dosing.

They don't at all achieve the same results. They're very different.

What are you talking about? The Carbonate in AFR is Alkalinity. Carbo-Calcium is KH + Ca, aka Alkalinity + Calcium.
They literally achieve the same results of maintaining KH and Ca.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

"any time I hear of an all in one solution, it sets off a red flag because everyone knowledgeable in this hobby usually starts by saying, “every tank is different.”

There is an all in one solution, it is called water changes.

 

[ClownSchool]

There is an all in one solution, it is called water changes.

Ya got me there….

 

[Spare time]

Kalkwasser is great for maintaining pH in addition to your Alk and Cal, but it will still require an additional dosing agent for trace elements (including Mag).
If you’re going to use All For Reef, I’d recommend using the liquid. The powder concentrate caused my tank major Calcium spikes (550-600 ppm) before I saw the results I needed with Alkalinity.
I’ve heard All For Reef is used as a supplement to Kalkwasser with success, but I have no personal experience with that approach.
In addition, any time I hear of an all in one solution, it sets off a red flag because everyone knowledgeable in this hobby usually starts by saying, “every tank is different.”
I add 40-50 ml of mag every month or more while a guy I know with the same sized system with similar stock adds 150-200 ml a month.

The powder surprisingly worked well in my tank. After about 2 years of very few water changes, the only thing off was some trace elements being low and a few things higher than normal (however that was from me deliberately dosing those things). No one is advertising that all for reef will cover all of your bases in every tank. It works really well UNLESS you have a pH concern.

 

[Reefahholic]

There is an all in one solution, it is called water changes.

Water changes aren’t a cure all. It depends on how much is being changed. Not to mention they’re expensive and cause small destabilizing events dependent upon how much is changed. Also, how many times have we all seen a saltmix nuke tanks, because something got into the salt. If I did water changes with the program I’m running, the trace’s will never hit my targets even at 100% volume. That being said water changes can be a good tool for some people, but they aren’t for me.

 

[Spare time]

Ok this thread has gotten absolutely ridiculous. Here are the facts and you can decide based on this rather than having to hear people argue back and forth.

All for reef:
+convenient
+need fewer bottles
+ contains magnesium and trace elements (and not an excessive amount of trace elements)
+can be made in a DIY version that allows you to adjust the ratio of things (i.e. more or less magnesium, more or less A elements, etc.)
-can be expensive, especially if you don't buy the powder
-non DIY versions do not let you adjust levels individually (this is easy to get around though)
-does not help with pH ( slightly lowers it)
-alk reading is not immediately available but calcium reading is (however, calcium tests tend to have a larger error margin from my experience).


Kalkwasser
+alk and calcium in one
+high pH boost
+cheap
-can't really be dosed by hand like other products
-need to be careful with how much is dosed at once due to strong pH boost


Arguably it comes down to if you prefer convenience or a pH boost. In my case I needed something convenient and simple since I am often away from my tank and also don't have an ATO. However, I would love the pH boost of kalkwasser.

Now you can look at this and move on.

 

[HBtank]

What are you talking about? The Carbonate in AFR is Alkalinity. Carbo-Calcium is KH + Ca, aka Alkalinity + Calcium.
They literally achieve the same results of maintaining KH and Ca.

Figures you wouldn’t understand this basic point; anyway, can’t believe this thread is still going

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Figures you wouldn’t understand this basic point; anyway, can’t believe this thread is still going

Carbonate and Carbon dosing are two different things, if you don't understand this you are the last person anyone should listen to.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Ok this thread has gotten absolutely ridiculous. Here are the facts and you can decide based on this rather than having to hear people argue back and forth.

All for reef:
+convenient
+need fewer bottles
+ contains magnesium and trace elements (and not an excessive amount of trace elements)
+can be made in a DIY version that allows you to adjust the ratio of things (i.e. more or less magnesium, more or less A elements, etc.)
-can be expensive, especially if you don't buy the powder
-non DIY versions do not let you adjust levels individually (this is easy to get around though)
-does not help with pH ( slightly lowers it)
-alk reading is not immediately available but calcium reading is (however, calcium tests tend to have a larger error margin from my experience).


Kalkwasser
+alk and calcium in one
+high pH boost
+cheap
-can't really be dosed by hand like other products
-need to be careful with how much is dosed at once due to strong pH boost


Arguably it comes down to if you prefer convenience or a pH boost. In my case I needed something convenient and simple since I am often away from my tank and also don't have an ATO. However, I would love the pH boost of kalkwasser.

Now you can look at this and move on.

Well said.