Lanthanum Chloride Questions

[AnakinReefWalker]

Hey all,
I recently stumbled across threads with people saying they use lanthanum chloride to lower phosphate. Upon further research i'd like to try it out, GFO is expensive and it's extra maintenance that I'm looking to get rid of.
1) Products like Phosphate RX or Phosphate E (Brightwell), what is the difference between this stuff and SeaKlear?
2) I know many use Seaklear for LC, but will this Phosfree product (linked) work for my reef tank?
3) What is the standard dosing amount? (120g reef)

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Chem...=UTF8&qid=1516996978&sr=8-3&keywords=phosfree

Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are many ways to reduce phosphate, and one of the concerns with some of them is lowering phosphate too much.

Do you know your current level?

The product you linked is likely acceptable.

I discuss the method here in a copy and paste from one of my article:

Soluble Metals to Bind Phosphate

There are several approaches that add soluble metals to bind and precipitate phosphate. The most popular involves adding lanthanum, which precipitates as lanthanum phosphate and/or lanthanum carbonate (which itself may contain some lanthanum phosphate). The lanthanum approach is widely used in the pool industry to reduce phosphate, and seems to often work well in aquaria. It is also very inexpensive, using products such as Seaklear (make sure it is a pure lanthanum version as mixtures with other metals also exist). Note that this method reduces alkalinity, as removing carbonate and phosphate as a lanthanum precipitate will reduce alkalinity.

One way to use it is to drip is slowly just upstream of a particulate filter to catch and remove a substantial amount of the precipitate that is formed. One drawback to the lanthanum approach is that much of the precipitated material may escape capture and simply settle out in the system somewhere. That may not be an issue, but many aquarists do not prefer to accumulate such material. A second concern is that some people have observed problematic reactions from aquarium inhabitants. While there are not a lot of such stories, it is enough for many aquarists to look for other options.

However, due to its low cost, this approach is especially well suited to outside of the tank operations, such as the removal of excess phosphate from phosphate-contaminated calcium carbonate rock that is later to be added to a reef aquarium.

Soluble iron has also been used in this way, but not nearly so often as lanthanum.

 

[AnakinReefWalker]

Hey Randy, thank you for that, I have a question, you mentioned that the Lanthanum could accumulate in the tank, will this cause an issue long term? My phosphate level is currently at ~.25, I'll retest tomorrow just to confirm that number and make sure it wasn't due to user error, I am currently battling algae and figured something was wrong

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I am curious as well. My first Triton test on my frag tank shows 24 µg/l of La, which Triton shows as being above the red zone, however I also have Al at 34 µg/l, which Triton shows elevated, but still within the green zone. I am not sure if they just have their level of acceptable La set really low (0.1 µg/l), or this signals a potential risk. I have used LaCl in the past on this tank, but I am not sure if the measurement is due to past usage, or failure to adequately export the reacted La. I would like to be able to use LaCl still, but have been hesitant to do so, based on the Triton result.

While dosing LaCl, I was using a DIY power filter comprised of filter floss on a pump intake, like GlennF uses in his DSR tank.

Dennis

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Lanthanum can accumulate in two different ways, only one of which will be detected by Triton.

Soluble lanthanum can accumulate in the water (which is detectable). I do not think we have any data on what level might be a problem (if it ever could attain such a level before precipitating).

Precipitated lanthanum carbonate and phosphate will collect on the bottom and maybe on surfaces like rock, sand, GFO, etc. I have no idea if that might be a concern long term, but worst case, it redissolves in some context (like passing through an organisms GI tract where the pH is very low). Still don't know if that is a problem.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Lanthanum can accumulate in two different ways, only one of which will be detected by Triton.

Soluble lanthanum can accumulate in the water (which is detectable). I do not think we have any data on what level might be a problem (if it ever could attain such a level before precipitating).

Precipitated lanthanum carbonate and phosphate will collect on the bottom and maybe on surfaces like rock, sand, GFO, etc. I have no idea if that might be a concern long term, but worst case, it redissolves in some context (like passing through an organisms GI tract where the pH is very low). Still don't know if that is a problem.

So in my case, since it has been detected, it must be soluble La. I was thinking that it might indicate reacted, but of a size too fine to settle being suspended in the water sample that Triton received. I have plenty of PO4 in my water column, so I would have expected the La to have no issues reacting with phosphate.

Dennis

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So in my case, since it has been detected, it must be soluble La. I was thinking that it might indicate reacted, but of a size too fine to settle being suspended in the water sample that Triton received. I have plenty of PO4 in my water column, so I would have expected the La to have no issues reacting with phosphate.

Dennis

Yes, it may be unsettled fine particles. The ICP companies do not all make it clear to us what particles get tested and what ones get removed before testing (if any).

 

[csb123]

I too had elevated La levels on Triton testing. I’m hesitant to use it anymore because of this. I don’t want to be the one to discover the toxic level...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t want to be the one to discover the toxic level...

lol

 

[Aliasger]

I have used phosphate rx in my 5000 US gallon marine tank. Well i put around 1000 drops ( less than the actual drops) , my fish especially brown tangs all died. I didn't get the cloudiness in the tank but my alkalinity dropped to 4dkh. The skimmer is like heavily removing it. Could it be the La which is could have been deposited ? or the alkalinity that killed the fish?

 

[Aliasger]

I have used phosphate rx for my 5000 gallon marine tank. Well i put around 1000 drops ( less than the actual drops) and not at once, slowly. The result was i lost about 30 fish in my tank with brown tangs and clowns. I put the drops in the filter sock near the skimmer area. The skimmer must have pulled it but it is still heavily off loading. My alkalinity dropped to 4dkh. Could it be the La or KH for the fish death? Any Advice please.

 

[Sallstrom]

I have used phosphate rx for my 5000 gallon marine tank. Well i put around 1000 drops ( less than the actual drops) and not at once, slowly. The result was i lost about 30 fish in my tank with brown tangs and clowns. I put the drops in the filter sock near the skimmer area. The skimmer must have pulled it but it is still heavily off loading. My alkalinity dropped to 4dkh. Could it be the La or KH for the fish death? Any Advice please.

I can't say if it's the lanthanum or not. But I have heard from other public aquariums that they lost mostly tangs when they overdosed LaCl(or tangs were the first fish that showed symptoms). Some of them stopped using it and went with iron solutions instead.
We use LaCl now and then at work(public aquarium), but in very small doses. Haven't seen any bad effects myself yet.

/ David

 

[Aliasger]

I can't say if it's the lanthanum or not. But I have heard from other public aquariums that they lost mostly tangs when they overdosed LaCl(or tangs were the first fish that showed symptoms). Some of them stopped using it and went with iron solutions instead.
We use LaCl now and then at work(public aquarium), but in very small doses. Haven't seen any bad effects myself yet.

/ David

Well, then could be it be the KH then ? as my ph also dropped , not of range but still. it was 8.3 and now it is 7.9.

 

[Sallstrom]

Well, then could be it be the KH then ? as my ph also dropped , not of range but still. it was 8.3 and now it is 7.9.

My guess is that it was the LaCl, but I can't prove it, sorry
Would have been great to hear if any veterinary have looked at a fish suspected to have died because of LaCl.

 

[Aliasger]

My guess is that it was the LaCl, but I can't prove it, sorry
Would have been great to hear if any veterinary have looked at a fish suspected to have died because of LaCl.

So, let's say it is LaCl but then if it was overdosed, it should precipitate in the tank right? secondly, the tank should get cloudy? Correct me on this ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can’t say either, if the lanthanum, the particulates that form (even if you did not see them) or the rapid alkalinity drop was a problem for the tangs. Might also have been coincidence, or a contaminant in the lanthanum. All of those things have happened to some people without losing tangs, so it can be a hard thing to diagnose.

 

[Aliasger]

I can’t say either, if the lanthanum, the particulates that form (even if you did not see them) or the rapid alkalinity drop was a problem for the tangs. Might also have been coincidence, or a contaminant in the lanthanum. All of those things have happened to some people without losing tangs, so it can be a hard thing to diagnose.

I still have one blue tang, one sailfin tang, novo wrasse, racoon butterfly, well they are all hiding, i have seen few spots on blue tang due to stress rest i cannot figure it out.

 

[tastyfish]

Not speaking from personal experience here, but from speaking to those running large systems with LCl dosing, they always emphasise the need to effectively filter out all of the precipitate.

The link I had to the research doesn't work anymore, but there is a link between the precipitate and respiratory distress, particularly in tangs.

This shouldn't be an issue if you are dosing into a filter to remove the precipitate. I'd rarely say this, but GFO is actually a less harsh remover of PO4 than LCI. It will also deplete your calcium, so keep an eye on this.

 

[Aliasger]

Well it did, sorry forgot to mention, my calcium also dropped from 450ppm to about 390ppm and my Ca reactor was under maintenance. Well hopefully i have attached everything back. Let's see if Ca and KH come to range.

 

[AnakinReefWalker]

Like others have said, LaCl, if not filtered out, can kill tangs. I don't know if that is what caused the death of your fish, but it's more than likely. I was looking into LaCl options, but I decided to set up an ATS to deal with my phosphates.