Lanthanum Chloride + Tangs + Socks

[BeanAnimal]

The effect is cumulative - Lowering the dose is not going to reverse this, even waiting a few months and trying again with a lower dose will have show stress faster. I wrote an article about this a decade or more ago after many months of testing and tweaking.

Plainly put, it will get worse if you don't stop 100%.

 

[fish_collector]

I've never used LC, never will. I don't care much what the phosphate level is in my SPS system, I haven't measured it for quite some time now and my acros have never looked better. But anyways that's not the topic of the thread...

Yes there are some who have used LC for years without issue, and those who use it once and have fish issues. I wish there was an easy answer to this. It is a dangerous product to use so please do as much research as possible and decide for yourself if it's worth it before you use it, the consequences can be heartbreaking.

This is a photo that was posted by someone who would have been considered an expert aquarist. This isn't a tub full of fish that succumbed to velvet, this is a tub of fish that died overnight after a dose of LC. Some of you may know who they belonged to.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I seem to have a ton of po4 in my LR and have been dosing 12ML of phosphate e diluted in 1000ML and dripped into 1 micron sock every other day for a couple weeks. On the occasions I have sat and watched my fish I have noticed distress in both my yellow tangs while dosing. Complete loss of appetite, heavy breathing, and other symptoms like twitching and swimming strange.

I have also noticed both YTs have started to show signs of HLLE since I began dosing.

Really wanted this to be the solution to my po4 issues but think I'll be back to the drawing board. Not going to keep adding something to my tank that is clearly harming my fish.

I’d definitely stop using it.

What is your phosphate level?

 

[TheDuude]

I’d definitely stop using it.

What is your phosphate level?

My po4 has been over .9 and out of range of my hannah checker for sometime. My goal is to just get it in range of my checker .9 or lower. My mixed reef does ok with high phosphates but I have let them get too high over the last year and now am struggling to get back down. Dealing with some lingering dino issues from the nutrient imbalance. Looking now for other economical ways to lower po4. GFO bring my last resort as I have never had much success with it.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Dealing with some lingering dino issues from the nutrient imbalance.

What is a nutrient imbalance?

 

[TheDuude]

I was at zero nitrates and very high ( somewhere over .9) po4 for months. Shooting for closer to redfield ratio. Dosing Ammonium Bicarb has got my trates up to 15 and stable.

 

[areefer01]

I was at zero nitrates and very high ( somewhere over .9) po4 for months. Shooting for closer to redfield ratio. Dosing Ammonium Bicarb has got my trates up to 15 and stable.

That is why it was asked - ignore the Redfield ratio. It is not applicable.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Raising the nitrate from zero is a good plan, but the Redfield ratio is an unimportant consideration.

 

[TheDuude]

Should I stop chasing the po4 down? Coral color is just Ok and growth is just OK. My main reason for chasing down po4 is a bit of GHA and lingering Dinos. They are not terrible but start to take over quickly without routine siphoning and management which is becoming too much work.

 

[TheDuude]

Also, something else to note my Captive Bred YT seemed to effected much worse by the lanth than my Hawaiian Yellow. CB fish is overall smaller with underdeveloped lower (pelvic?) fins..

 

[BeanAnimal]

I was at zero nitrates and very high ( somewhere over .9) po4 for months. Shooting for closer to redfield ratio. Dosing Ammonium Bicarb has got my trates up to 15 and stable.

Redfield is the ratio at which some organisms (some phytoplankton) incorporate N, P and C. It is not a ratio to "shoot for" in the water column. Organisms use whatever they are going to use at whatever ratio they do, based on many variables and not at what ratio those nutrients are presented in the water column. They do so unless one of those nutrients is missing. So the ratio in the water column is not important. What is important as that none are "zero".

I would not ignore your phosphate levels, but I would not harm your fish trying to reduce them.

More directly: the Redfield ratio has no practical place in reef keeping as a metric for water column management. It is a misapplied ecological concept that has propagated through the hobby.

 

[BeanAnimal]

@TheDuude --

I would would also ask where you picked up the idea that Redfield was something worth chasing, or even considering? This seems to be an increasingly popular belief and I am just curious as to your source.

 

[TheDuude]

@TheDuude --

I would would also ask where you picked up the idea that Redfield was something worth chasing, or even considering? This seems to be an increasingly popular belief and I am just curious as to your source.

Maybe I use that term to loosely but seems it's mentioned in quite a few videos online and posts here. I don't think exact numbers are necessary but IME something near RF in regards to nitrate and phosphate concentrations yields success.

Whenever my tanks have gotten far away from this, either with bottomed out nitrate or sky high phosphate, which I am battling now, I ended up with Dinos and cyano.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Maybe I use that term to loosely but seems it's mentioned in quite a few videos online and posts here. I don't think exact numbers are necessary but IME something near RF in regards to nitrate and phosphate concentrations yields success.

Whenever my tanks have gotten far away from this, either with bottomed out nitrate or sky high phosphate, which I am battling now, I ended up with Dinos and cyano.

You can be certain that some perfect Redfield ratios will totally fail. Both can be way too high or way too low, and still have a perfect ratio.

On the other hand, individually targeting both to whatever desirable level you think is good will obviously succeed, and is probably not grossly off that ratio anyway.

Your assertion about bottomed out levels is obviously a concern. But solving it by bottoming out the other to achieve your ratio is not good solution. Raising the low one to a desirable absolute level is a good path.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Maybe I use that term to loosely but seems it's mentioned in quite a few videos online and posts here. I don't think exact numbers are necessary but IME something near RF in regards to nitrate and phosphate concentrations yields success.

I was just curious if you had a direct source. It nonsense repeated by folks who don’t know better. Broken clocks are right twice a day and almost any reasonable phosphate and nitrate level is a ratio.

Whenever my tanks have gotten far away from this, either with bottomed out nitrate or sky high phosphate, which I am battling now, I ended up with Dinos and cyano.

Sky high phosphate has nothing to do with any particular ratio, it is just sky high phosphate causing issues. Raising nitrate to some matching ratio does not alleviate the issue caused by the sky high phosphate.

Likewise, bottomed out nitrite is bottomed out nitrite. If nitrate is zero, then lowering phosphate to try and match the ratio doesn’t help fix the issues caused by the nitrate limitation.

As mentioned above, there needs to be N and P, if either are at zero, then you have a problem.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Drat… Randy you did it again. So fast on the draw.

 

[TheDuude]

Yea we are in agreement here, I will take the RF term out back and bury it.
My experience with my last two tanks confirms Beans statement above that bottoming out either can cause issues.

Last tank, had zero phosphates, and ran into Dino.

My current tank, bottomed out nitrates, and ran into Dinos as well.

Dosing Ammonium Bicarbonate has helped significantly over the last 4 months as it allows me to export more aggressively but also maintain my Nitrates.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yea we are in agreement here, I will take the RF term out back and bury it.

If only it caught fire and spread with the wind....