Large Cell Amphidinium Dinos

[djm]

Hi All,

I’ve been battling large cell amphidinium for quite some time now and I’m getting pretty frustrated with it.

I’ve raised my nutrients which have been held at 22.0ppm Nitrates and 0.22 phosphates a couple of months now.

I’ve tried silica dosing, never saw a diatom bloom and didn’t seem to make any impact on the dinos.

Recently did a 2 day black out whilst raising temp to 28c (82.4F) and dosing Dinox.

After slowly turning the lights back on and lowering my temp back to 25c my sand was pure white, no trace of dinos under a microscope for about a week. Now the sand is slowly starting to turn a rusty red and the dinos are back visible under the microscope.

Nitrates and phosphates are still high, so I’m at loss now as to what to try next.


Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi All,

I’ve been battling large cell amphidinium for quite some time now and I’m getting pretty frustrated with it.

I’ve raised my nutrients which have been held at 22.0ppm Nitrates and 0.22 phosphates a couple of months now.

I’ve tried silica dosing, never saw a diatom bloom and didn’t seem to make any impact on the dinos.

Recently did a 2 day black out whilst raising temp to 28c (82.4F) and dosing Dinox.

After slowly turning the lights back on and lowering my temp back to 25c my sand was pure white, no trace of dinos under a microscope for about a week. Now the sand is slowly starting to turn a rusty red and the dinos are back visible under the microscope.

Nitrates and phosphates are still high, so I’m at loss now as to what to try next.


Any suggestions would be appreciated.

The “lights out” remedy likely only causes the dinoflagellates to disperse and look for a better habitat. When the light returns, they return.

 

[djm]

The “lights out” remedy likely only causes the dinoflagellates to disperse and look for a better habitat. When the light returns, they return.

What’s the solution?

Light out, raising temp and nutrients, dosing Dinox and Silica all didn’t work.

What are the remaining options?

 

[brandon429]

It's based on gallonage, treatments that actually work.


If you have a large tank, the experiment will continue with the expected results from large dinos thread in the nuisance forum (2% fixes, 98% works in progress at any check point)




But if you have a nano, luckily you can make your tank begin compliance by cleaning it in a special way that you haven't seen yet, then it won't be hard to fix. Overnight it will look brand new.

Dino x and blackouts will turn your reef into a green algae farm, the giant dinos thread shows. Hopefully you have a nano, then I'll show you a link with shocking positive results.

How many gallons is your tank

 

[djm]

It's based on gallonage, treatments that actually work.


If you have a large tank, the experiment will continue with the expected results from large dinos thread in the nuisance forum (2% fixes, 98% works in progress at any check point)




But if you have a nano, luckily you can make your tank begin compliance by cleaning it in a special way that you haven't seen yet, then it won't be hard to fix. Overnight it will look brand new.

Dino x and blackouts will turn your reef into a green algae farm, the giant dinos thread shows. Hopefully you have a nano, then I'll show you a link with shocking positive results.

How many gallons is your tank

It’s a 300 litre system ( approx 80gallons) that includes a 65litre sump

 

[Dan_P]

What’s the solution?

Light out, raising temp and nutrients, dosing Dinox and Silica all didn’t work.

What are the remaining options?

Reading posts over the years, it seems for any one remedy, including “do nothing”, there is less than 10% chance of it working. Multiple remedies at once may up the odds in your favor. You might as well add to the list of things tried the sand UV wand, a submersible UV light that you use to zap the dinoflagellate infested sand every day or so.

 

[flacohlh]

It's based on gallonage, treatments that actually work.


If you have a large tank, the experiment will continue with the expected results from large dinos thread in the nuisance forum (2% fixes, 98% works in progress at any check point)




But if you have a nano, luckily you can make your tank begin compliance by cleaning it in a special way that you haven't seen yet, then it won't be hard to fix. Overnight it will look brand new.

Dino x and blackouts will turn your reef into a green algae farm, the giant dinos thread shows. Hopefully you have a nano, then I'll show you a link with shocking positive results.

How many gallons is your tank

What is the link, I have a Dino Amphidinium outbreak in my nano tank

 

[brandon429]

This specific one here.

Algae Identification

Any opinions on what type of algae this is growing on my rocks and sand bed?

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you for responding I would really like to run a rip clean in your setup to track the results.

Once you apply that thread to your nano it will be 100% brand new looking. It's possible to have it done by this afternoon in fact.


From the clean condition we then make changes to prevention. Every other thread has us doing changes from the invaded high mass condition, what we're doing is opposite because of the access a nano affords.

We can literally opt out of what large tankers can't opt out of, and that's owning a wrecked reef.

Not once will we care about species of your invader, or even if it's dinos at all. It won't change the game plan for the fix or the prevention.


From the clean condition we reduce your tank's light intensity #1

Depending on how it's biology courses over two weeks time we may pull the sandbed and not put it back until they're beaten, but that's rare. The right way to assess the veracity of your particular invasion is to assess it from the cleaned condition, post your before pics let's see the challenge.

 

[CHSUB]

I’ve raised my nutrients which have been held at 22.0ppm Nitrates and 0.22 phosphates a couple of months now.

Algae need nutrients, including dinoflagellate, you’re just giving “nuisance” algae more food. The idea of low nutrients starving out good stuff only exists in the Matrix. No reason to have no3 any higher than readable on a hobby test kit and unreadable is fine too in most cases.

I’ve tried silica dosing, never saw a diatom bloom and didn’t seem to make any impact on the dinos.

Turns out many dinoflagellate consume diatoms, go figure. So throw that “solution” in the trash…

Recently did a 2 day black out whilst raising temp to 28c (82.4F) and dosing Dinox

Black out is beyond silly, only thing less effective is raising the temperature…worse still is chemicals!

In glass boxes best solution in every case is good, vigorous, consistent maintenance which includes manual removal and controlling inorganic nutrients while supplying ample food. It is that easy with all algae.

 

[brandon429]

Key points in that thread


Nobody had a cloudy new tank. That's best of the best sandbed rinsers

Instead of guessing if the sand was rinsed enough they checked: put a handful into a clear glass of water and see if the grains tested fall to the bottom of the glass with no cloud

Be cloudless #1 rule

#2 rule

Clean the rocks as we did there, you can use peroxide on the cleaned spots to burn leftover cells. It's all done outside the tank on the counter and rocks are rinsed in saltwater then set aside clean, in holding, awaiting tank reassembly


Your tanks nitrate and phosphate do not matter, because hobby test kits aren't very accurate, see any comparison threads. That's why we don't discuss what someone guesses their parameters are at above, that's a no excuse action thread of zero measure and all hammer.

The most important part of preparing an invasion control method is that you need to be able to see results from other people's tanks for a given method. It wouldn't make sense to choose a method with no searchable results for other people's tanks. What works for an authors tank does not matter at all to us: only what works for others is our benefit.

 

[brandon429]

Reef invasion psychology


Not biology


Is the most fascinating barrier to fixing nano tanks. Our minds are the cause of ongoing problems, not a problem within the tank.





It's clear from above if someone is 100% willing to apply the thread order of ops we know what the results will be, results are in pictures over and over.


When someone is not willing to follow the steps, and even by next week their tank is still invaded, that's a matter of choice, not biology. To directly have a fix laid out plain as day, then not seize it, is a matter of choice the outcome never was in question.

Getting willing parties is the hardest part in amassing rip clean fixes, 98% of invaded nano owners want to be that way for a litany of stated reasons. Most common in order of appearance:
- my rock arch is glued into place I'd have to break it to remove the rocks. Don't want to
- thats too much work
- if it's not something I can add (lowest work due factor) I don't want it.


The ones who don't want to own an invaded reef tank I get along very very well with

Those are the ones who make the results threads

 

[djm]

Algae need nutrients, including dinoflagellate, you’re just giving “nuisance” algae more food. The idea of low nutrients starving out good stuff only exists in the Matrix. No reason to have no3 any higher than readable on a hobby test kit and unreadable is fine too in most cases.

Turns out many dinoflagellate consume diatoms, go figure. So throw that “solution” in the trash…

Black out is beyond silly, only thing less effective is raising the temperature…worse still is chemicals!

In glass boxes best solution in every case is good, vigorous, consistent maintenance which includes manual removal and controlling inorganic nutrients while supplying ample food. It is that easy with all algae.

I’ve read a lot that doing a black out and raising temperature helps knock back the dinos so other treatments are then more effective. In fact it had the biggest impact in reducing the numbers for me so I don’t really understand why I’m “beyond silly” for trying this.

Your comment is beyond useless if you’re not actually contributing anything helpful

 

[CHSUB]

I’ve read a lot that doing a black out and raising temperature helps knock back the dinos so other treatments are then more effective. In fact it had the biggest impact in reducing the numbers for me so I don’t really understand why I’m “beyond silly” for trying this.

Your comment is beyond useless if you’re not actually contributing anything helpful

Of course a “black out” will temporarily kill photosynthetic organisms, but is that solving anything? I’m constantly pushing my light’s power higher and higher to grow more. Algae maintenance is basic stuff, looking to magically fix algae problems with nutrients, temperature, chemicals or whatever is rubbish. Many will quote R Ross high nutrient system as an example of how high nutrient levels themselves don’t contribute to excess nuisance algae, but many miss the point of how he is meticulous in removing algae and cleaning his aquarium. If you find my comment “beyond useless” follow Ross, but this advice will be to manually remove the algae.
an example of my lights…..

 

[Neko]

Hi djm,

Any update on this? Did you rinse all of your sands?

I'm in the same situation. Removing sand is the only way for my case. My tank is slowly getting to bare bottom... Just need to watch stability of parameters more frequently.

 

[djm]

Hi djm,

Any update on this? Did you rinse all of your sands?

I'm in the same situation. Removing sand is the only way for my case. My tank is slowly getting to bare bottom... Just need to watch stability of parameters more frequently.

Hi Neko,

I’m still battling away and seem to be getting a bloom of one Dino after another. First it was large cell amphidinium, that seemed to clear up, then small cell moved in which a UV sterilizer seemed to clear up pretty quick but now it appears Coolia have filled their void.

I’ve tried to avoid removing the sand bed but I’m thinking that’s going to be my only option as well soon.

 

[kgalarr0]

These are the main things to do for all dino problems:

1. Start lowering your light intensity and duration. Slowly but surely. That will probably take 2 weeks.

2. Perform large water changes (maybe 50%) around 3 times a week. The goal is to remove as many dinos and algae as possible, if present. Also, 0 nutrients is a plus. Remember that they live and need to eat too. They will get weak, but still feed from light. At this point, remember that dinos, algae, and other things are consuming nitrates, so 0 nutrients is an illusion. Also remember that things are starving and dying, releasing nutrients. Try to remove garbage before decay and remove nutrients.

3. All this time, dose bacteria daily (turn off flow and skimmer so the bacteria settles) and maximize mechanical filtration. Remove as much garbage as humanly possible. That includes blowing off rock and sand.

4. After 2-4 weeks, it's time for what will change everything. One final water change, dose bacteria, and a 3-day blackout. ABSOLUTELY NO LIGHT.

5. When the blackout is complete, do another large water change. THINGS ARE DYING, and that releases fuel for dinos and algae. IMMEDIATELY put in WANTED LIFE. Example: Live rock and live sand, and bacteria.

6. The goal from now on: Keep nitrates and phosphates LOW, but PRESENT. Nitrates around 5 to 10 ppm and phosphates from 0.03 to 0.10. This leaves some fuel, but not a surplus. Guess who gets to eat the little fuel available? Well... everything. However, if you compare the microbiome, dinos will form the minority, so the majority, and/or the CURRENT dominant life will take advantage of the available nutrients this time.

The end. This either completely starves the dinos or keeps them undetectable.

Note: You likely have dinos because most life starved when nutrients bottomed out. Dinos took advantage and now dominate, so the minority does not have enough to eat. So you have to achieve the opposite, basically.

This is the way, and I hope that more people can replicate this.