Lasses Dream Build

[Lasse]

If it is opposite why does bacterial growth accelerate when adding carbon in the carbonsourcemethod?(using assimilativa pathway). That indicates that you have not correct C/N index thus lower that 100/16.

As I said many time before - normally a fast organic carbon source (dissolved BOD - I do not know the exactly nomenclature for this in English but I mean that part of BOD which is left after microfiltration as alcohols an dissolved sugar) is limited for bacteria growth in aerobic systems. But there is enough organic matter (particular and large molecules) coming through the food chain but they need to be converted to more available molecules as sugar and alcohols before the bacteria can use them direct from the water In a normal system without anaerobic digestion a large part of the organic carbon from the food will be “in locked” and not directly available for the aerobic bacteria (directly from the water). However in an anaerobic system will this happen in the first steps of anaerobic digestion and the denitrifying bacteria can use these fast organic carbon sources.

This can be a problem with anaerobic filters like mine – because they can add fast organic carbon to the aerobic part of the system – and there will be bacteria growth in the aquarium. There is solution of this also but I have to see the problem first.

You ask for prove - and I repeat - I use these processes at my work - first this was proven was 2003 - after studies done at Chalmers in Gothenburg . Now we have proven it with five systems the last 1.5 year. But it will take a long time to build up this in my aquarium - it is slow processes

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

As I said many time before - normally a fast organic carbon source (dissolved BOD - I do not know the exactly nomenclature for this in English but I mean that par of BOD which is left after microfiltration as alcohols an dissolved sugar) is limited for bacteria growth in aerobic systems. But there is enough organic matter (particular and large molecules) coming through the food chain but they need to be converted to more available molecules as sugar and alcohols before the bacteria can use them direct from the water In a normal system without anaerobic digestion a large part of the organic carbon from the food will be “in locked” and not directly available for the aerobic bacteria (directly from the water). However in an anaerobic system will this happen in the first steps of anaerobic digestion and the denitrifying bacteria can use these fast organic carbon sources.

This can be a problem with anaerobic filters like mine – because they can add fast organic carbon to the aerobic part of the system – and there will be bacteria growth in the aquarium. There is solution of this also but I have to see the problem first.

You ask for prove - and I repeat - I use these processes at my work - first this was proven was 2003 - after studies done at Chalmers in Gothenburg . Now we have proven it with five systems the last 1.5 year. But it will take a long time to build up this in my aquarium - it is slow processes

Sincerely Lasse

Ok Lasse, now I understand what you mean. I did not realise that you ment the whole total organic load, thus POM +DOM, because if we take in account all POM, and assume that all POM is degraded , I can see the logic in that it may be enough of organic totally set, for the denitrification. But this requires another construction of the denitrification filters like yours or Dymico, because an ordinary filter setup like that from aqua medic or deltec etc, will not get these POM to the right place. I understand now what you mean.

 

[Lasse]

Äntligen

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JonasRoman]

1-1;-)

 

[nervousmonkey]

Finally.

What is DOM? Dissolved organic material? POM? BOD?

 

[Lasse]

DOM =Disolved Organic Matter, POM = Particula Organic Matter and BOD = Biological Oxygen Demand. BOD is measured during a certain time. In most of Europé - it is 5 days = BOD5. In Sweden is mostly 7 Days -> BOD7. Reason - we do not like to work during weekends. BOD measuring biological activity in the aerobic breakdown of organic matter.

I´m older than Jonas and when I learn about this - DOM and POM was not used in Sweden. We talk about disolved and particular BOD instead. But DOM, POM is a better way to explain this

Sincerely Lasse

 

[nervousmonkey]

Great explanation! Thank you Lasse!!

 

[Lasse]

20 000 views- thank you all

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Comparing of growth pattern

16-12-25

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17-01-02

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17-01-09

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Some other Pictures

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Sincerely Lasse

 

[revhtree]

Great job sir!

 

[Rick.45cal]

@klp It´s not an under gravel filter as 40 years ago - not even a reversed flow under gravel filter as EHEIM introduced in the eighties. It is intended to be a DSB but with a very tiny flow upwards. I´ll try to create a denitrification area in the bottom of the DSB and need a tiny flow just to have the water going through the bed and also for bringing down a fast organic carbon source to the denitrification point. Which source it will be – I haven’t decided yet. There is one source that no one use yet which I'm mighty tempted to test – skim mate from the skimmer. Pure bacteria that will create an anaerobic zone that in the long run can act as an internal fast organic carbon source. The environment I´ll create will also be rich in carbon dioxide and the pH up through the bed will hopefully act as an internal calcium reactor. The bottom water will be rich in both phosphate and ammonia and maybe I´ll use this resources also. Over the DSB I will have a reversed refugee of macro algae. If I succeed to have a tiny flow through the DSB upwards – I maybe only run the flow during night so I´ll bring up both carbon dioxide, phosphate and ammonia to the macro algae.

This build is a test aquarium where I have combined a lot of ideas. I´ll follow up it with measurements and also experiments to see if I will be able to regulate what’s happen. There is Dutch ideas that are rather similar with mine but how similar I do not know because I have not study their work at all.

I´m aware of that I´ll maybe will construct one of the best hydrogen sulphide reactors in the world – therefore I will handle my return pump in such a way that it will not start in 15 minutes after a power break – it will not start before the skimmer working good. I will also have at least one oxydator in the sump, maybe a small one over the DSB also (oxygen neutralize hydrogen sulphide momently)

If all of this work the way I want – I will have a stable biological driven system – and that´s the goal

Back to the build – It will not be any pictures today because I realize that I have to test the whole system for leakage – before I mount background and build the DSB

Sincerely Lasse

I don't usually post while reading a 17 page thread until I have consumed the entire thing, but I am going to make an exception in this case. I've been planning an additional refugium to my DT, and your accessible slow flow plenum is an idea that I have had cooking in my brain for some time now. I know of at least one gentleman in Japan operating his tank with a DSB using a similar (very simplistic concept compared to yours). His void is created using an open cell biological material with the sand dumped on top. I was considering something more elegant like you have designed here. Your ideas for being able to take measurements and introduce carbon sources (including skimmate) are brilliant. Now I am off to read the rest of the thread and follow this so I can see how this all pans out!

Thank you for braving the language barrier (you speak very eloquently) to share your experience and experiment with us.

 

[jsker]

Great job sir!

Yes I guess I am following you around today

@Lasse always enjoy you update and pictures.

 

[Lasse]

Thank you all

and @Rick.45cal - My daughter use to say that I speak with a slight Swedish accident - and I also know that my written English crash now and then But I do the best I can.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Rick.45cal]

Thank you all

and @Rick.45cal - My daughter use to say that I speak with a slight Swedish accident - and I also know that my written English crash now and then But I do the best I can.

Sincerely Lasse

Haha! Well I hardly noticed the accent!!!

 

[Rick.45cal]

Great thread so far.

So to ultimately get to the "self playing piano" stage, you are going to have to build up a very large nutrient sink in the anerobic/anoxic zones? Which obviously occurs much more rapidly on extremely high bioload systems like a catfish farm. It's a brilliant plan to feed the organic material from the skimmer directly down into the plenum to help feed the process. Your putting the nutrients directly where they need to be, and in a very controlled manner.

I will definitely be picking your brain, My refugium that I am planning is likely going to be similar to this. I'm also looking forward to seeing where the future takes your tank and this thread, it is a spectacular display! I can only imagine it is only going to become even more so!

 

[jsker]

Great thread so far.

So to ultimately get to the "self playing piano" stage, you are going to have to build up a very large nutrient sink in the anerobic/anoxic zones? Which obviously occurs much more rapidly on extremely high bioload systems like a catfish farm. It's a brilliant plan to feed the organic material from the skimmer directly down into the plenum to help feed the process. Your putting the nutrients directly where they need to be, and in a very controlled manner.

I will definitely be picking your brain, My refugium that I am planning is likely going to be similar to this. I'm also looking forward to seeing where the future takes your tank and this thread, it is a spectacular display! I can only imagine it is only going to become even more so!

I have also learned a few things along the way also

 

[Lasse]

So to ultimately get to the "self playing piano" stage, you are going to have to build up a very large nutrient sink in the anerobic/anoxic zones?

Yes – this is one of my ideas that I´m a little bit scared of. The backslash of this is that I will have a source of hydrogen sulphide in my system. Hydrogen sulphide will be formed in anaerobic areas contenting sulphur and if there is zero nitrates. (By the way – I think that one of the pathways nitrate helps fighting cyano mats is that nitrate block the forming of hydrogen sulphide below the mats. Hydrogen sulphide is needed in order to release bound phosphorus from the substrate.)

I can´t avoid this potential problem if I want to use this method. But I can make a design which minimizes the effect of the formed hydrogen sulphide. The gas I easily oxidized and it’s easy to aerate it out from the water. Also – in areas contenting nitrate – the formation of this toxic gas will not take place. One of the reasons that make me want some nitrates in the water (together with the cyano problem)

My DSB is placed in a narrow channel with a flow of around 3500 l/h. The flow is also cross the channel so there is no chance that all oxygen is consumed in the beginning of the channel. My construction is a variety of Anthony Calfo´s DSB in a bucket. Oxygen production is also one of the reasons that my DSB is in my refugium. After the reugium – the water goes down to my sump in the part that content my skimmer. More oxygen and aeration A Oxydator is also situated in the return pump chamber. The chance to get out hydrogen sulphide to my display tank during normal operation rather low - I think. I have a huge respect for hydrogen sulphide as you understand.

I feel rather safe during normal operation – but if I got a power shout down – what’s happen? It will be a huge risk of hydrogen sulphide in the refugium – and also a rather fast formation. To avoid this – I have a small oxydator in my “good to have-box” – and I will place it in the refugium. Also – if I leave town for a prolonged time – I place the “spare” oxydator at the refugium. I plan to move my main oxydator to the display in such a situation also.

I use a Profilux computer and it has a wonderful property in cases like this. You can directly delay the onset of any power socket after power failure. Therefore my return pump will start 15 minutes after the power failure – every else of my pumps and wave makers start directly.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Rick.45cal]

Yes I understand (not to the degree you do) the dangers of hydrogen sulfide. My system is pretty close to 600l of actual water I also maintain NO3 via KNO3 additions and operate with detectable (2.5ppm generally) NO3, I also already employ 2 Sochting oxydators (model A) with 9% H2O2. It would be pretty easy for me to ensure similar safeguards that you have in place. My return will be well into the sump upstream of a skimmer. I can also program my returns in a similar fashion so that there is a delay should there be a power failure. I guess my biggest concern would be mine would not have the same cross flow/high flow rate accross it. Though I could ensure that there was a pretty high flow rate inside of the refugium. Or even to and from the sump.

Thank you for sharing and humoring me, you've really fed fuel to the fire in my imagination!

 

[Rick.45cal]

In my situation I could program the controller to not start the circulation pump to and from the refugium to the sump until I returned and did it myself. That would likely be the best option in my case if I decide to pursue this. Again thank you Lasse, what a really cool guy to share something as special as this with us!

 

[Lasse]

pH, coral growth and health is a very interesting topic. The rising levels of CO2 in the atmosphere affect the pH in the oceans and together with a higher average temperature – it is a serious treat for the stony corals growth and health. The fact that high CO2 levels in the air affect the pH of saltwater in a home aquaria has many people seen. Its difficult to have a stable pH over 8 in homes that either is situated in cold areas or in tropical and subtropical parts there air-condition is in use. (Well isolated homes). Lower pH counteract the calcification process and promote some algae growth.

During the last years – one of my goal has been to maintain a high pH as possible and my current tank is constructed to promote this. Reversed refugium, carbon stripper for the skimmers intake air and other minor things. The result was that my pH vary from 8.3 to 8.5 most days. Nutrient levels has been low (PO4 – 0.07 and NO3 around 4) For the moment a PS Hyperion SMS 3*145 W (the tank is 50 cm deep, 120 cm long and 50 cm width

I was satisfied and just sit down in order to see how the stony corals just grow out their skin. They did not……. not all anyway.

Back to the thinking chamber. There is one fact that I for many years has noticed but just put down into the cellar. Aquarium with calcium reactors often have a very strong growth – corals literary grow out their own skin with broad white edges. One common thing I notice – the pH. Often it is around 8.0-8.1 – and very stable!

Some studies according pH, coral health and growth that I have been a part of (configured pH measurement and regulation of the pH of the various levels) indicate a optimum around 8 – 8.1 in a stable way. It´s not possible to say that it is in this way – but there is indications.

In both this examples – CO2 regulate the pH in different places and there is more CO2 in a pH around 8.1 compared with 8.3. On the other hand – corals (e.g. zooxanthella’s) is known to use other ways (than CO2 solved in the water) to acquire CO2 – through the host and through converting HCO3 to CO2. The latest need a lot of energy. Is there any chance that increased photosynthesis, through the use of more accessible CO2 can counteract a higher energy demand for calcification in a lower pH? At least within certain limits of course.

This has to be tested. I have a scrubber – therefore access to low CO2 air (raise the pH) and in the sump – often a CO2 content around 800 ppm. If I had my skimmer to take air through the CO2 scrubber if the pH is below – let us say 8.2 and from the sump if the pH is over 8.2. This could give a stable pH and a CO2 contribution when the corals need this (during the photosynthesis which tends to rise the pH). I can also ask for a lower pH during night in order to promote photosynthesis among my macro algae.


Now to construct the equipment. A fast scan at E-Bay result in a order of three very small two ways solenoid valves. The pipe was only 2 mm so I have to use all thre in order to get enough air. They will be hot so I mount them on a aluminum tube.

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Upper green pipe - intake from CO scrubber (Low CO2)
lower green pipe - Outlet to Skimmer

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Inlet from the sump (CO2 rich air)

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Now I´m testing – coming back later with graphs

Sincerely Lasse