LED or Metal Halide

[rtparty]

The fact has not changed that watt for watt, LEDs are barely ahead of MH and that is ONLY if you think spectrum is identical for both. That's just the truth about PAR. It doesn't take spectrum into account in any way except, "here's a massive range. Just fit inside it somewhere."

Once you put spectrum into the mix, halides crush LEDs in every way. I'm also talking true spectral plots. None of this marketing junk vendors put out. Years ago I got to see an actual LED reading from one of the LED manufacturers in the hobby and it was crazy. They smooth them out so severely it should honestly be illegal.

So if anyone is replacing 400w halides with a ~220w LED fixture, they were over lighting their tank. That's just a fact. A 250w would have been more than enough.

 

[jda]

I respect the heck out of Dr. Joshi. He replaced 3x 400w Halides with 10x Radion xr30s... that is about right. He has always said that you don't save any energy and replacing the panels, which he has done, is more expensive than replacing bulbs. In the end, the math is not there on large tanks - there is no way to make it work to say that LED is cheaper but it might be close to the same in some scenarios if you can make Black Boxes last longer than normal. You can make the math work on smaller tanks especially if heat can be a factor. Medium tanks can go either way. It is just better to say "I like what I like" than to try and make the math work sometimes. The rest of it is bunk - Halides are not going away and demand has most good ones on backorder right now, LEDs are not disasters at growing corals (they used to be and people were right when they said that when they were new so nobody needs to still be ticked off about this since things have changed), there is nothing cheaper if you choose wisely, etc. You can screw up a tank with either. Outside of some very specific species tanks that might need some specific kind of lighting, just find something that works for your personality... if you want to tinker, then an app is probably good for you (maybe not your corals if you tinker too much), if you want pure performance and want to be kept from tinkering too much since you wonder about yourself, then get something with bulbs.

I say this all the time and to a lot of locals when we meet and they are amazed since they have never seen a Halide tank like mine... want MH performance with LED electrical consumption and lower heat, get a 150w HQI with a 14k Phoenix bulb. They are amazing for mixed reefs and lower light SPS over a 24 inch area and high light SPS in the middle.

 

[X-37B]

Agree on the 14k 150.
This is my frag tank, not alot in their currently. 36x24x12.
18" off the surface.
1st is the phoenix 14k de hqi.
2nd is the 17.5 giesemann.
The 14k is a much bluer than the 17.5 k.
I like the whiter 17.5 look myself.

 

[BradB]

I am running 650 watts at the plug on my 270. It is significantly more light than when I had 2x400 MH, which would have been well over 800 watts at the plug. Growth is better, costs beyond electric are half. Ymmv

 

[piranhaman00]

Im sure this was mentioned but people say that the customizability of LEDs is a huge pro and while it is cool, it is a reason people struggle, constantly altering the spectrum is going to lead to no growth. MH and T5 are set and thats it, nothing to mess with which means more success...usually.

 

[rtparty]

I am running 650 watts at the plug on my 270. It is significantly more light than when I had 2x400 MH, which would have been well over 800 watts at the plug. Growth is better, costs beyond electric are half. Ymmv

What halide setup were you running?

 

[BradB]

What halide setup were you running?

Over a decade? I changed a number of things. I started with several 6500 IWaki bulbs, as that was by consensus the best for growth, it was cheap and I liked how it looked with some T5 blues and actinics mixed in for balance - which worked great the way they were DIY'd into the canopy left a lot of endcap and wiring problems. I've never been a fan of splash shields with MH, LEDs or anything else. My experience (both with LEDs and MH) was bluer light (within reason) gave not only better color but more growth. I ended up using the 10k XMs a lot, as again they were cheap, I liked the aesthetics, and I gave up keeping the T5s going.

I have receipts for 20k XMs and 14k icecaps, and I know I tried some of the other popular choices - most of them much more expensive and I felt the budget bulbs did just as well.

Everything was inside a large wooden canopy with large fans. Everything was single ended (I may have owned or tried a double ended fixture at one point), with separately bought electronic ballasts, reflectors and sockets.

 

[BradB]

I respect the heck out of Dr. Joshi. He replaced 3x 400w Halides with 10x Radion xr30s... that is about right. He has always said that you don't save any energy and replacing the panels, which he has done, is more expensive than replacing bulbs. In the end, the math is not there on large tanks - there is no way to make it work to say that LED is cheaper but it might be close to the same in some scenarios if you can make Black Boxes last longer than normal. You can make the math work on smaller tanks especially if heat can be a factor. Medium tanks can go either way. It is just better to say "I like what I like" than to try and make the math work sometimes. The rest of it is bunk - Halides are not going away and demand has most good ones on backorder right now, LEDs are not disasters at growing corals (they used to be and people were right when they said that when they were new so nobody needs to still be ticked off about this since things have changed), there is nothing cheaper if you choose wisely, etc. You can screw up a tank with either. Outside of some very specific species tanks that might need some specific kind of lighting, just find something that works for your personality... if you want to tinker, then an app is probably good for you (maybe not your corals if you tinker too much), if you want pure performance and want to be kept from tinkering too much since you wonder about yourself, then get something with bulbs.

I say this all the time and to a lot of locals when we meet and they are amazed since they have never seen a Halide tank like mine... want MH performance with LED electrical consumption and lower heat, get a 150w HQI with a 14k Phoenix bulb. They are amazing for mixed reefs and lower light SPS over a 24 inch area and high light SPS in the middle.

Sanjay's reefbum video on youtube says 8x Radions. He says for larger tanks he thinks people will be equally happy with equal wattage of either, that his MH grew corals faster but he doesn't care since both are fast enough for someone not making a business of growing coral to sell, that he actually has more wattage of lighting now and would like to add more.

I found these last few points contradictory - if he doesn't care about his growth rate, why does he want to add more lights?

 

[jda]

If you are going to talk and post, you should at least watch the whole video or otherwise understand what is going on... he makes it really clear that he added 2 Radions later and has been running 10 since at least 2015 MACNA. This seeing only what you want to see and stopping without learning the whole picture is what leads to these past stupid debates that mostly are gone now, until this one. He also makes it very clear why he added more - coverage, which is another totally real thing that people have found out the hard way that you cannot believe the coverage that a LED manufacturer posts about. It doesn't make your point very well if you don't get all of the facts that other people lay out very well, or don't know for yourself that if you actually want to replace the same thing that a 400w Halide did, that you cannot do this with less power... you just cannot do it unless you do not have a wide enough breath and depth of knowledge and experience to know what you are missing which does not work for other people who do have this knowledge and experience.

For the most part, these kind of conversations have gotten more civil because there is a wider swath of people who realize that math is math and that the magic that some posters have listed with less power and more light are pure bunk. Wide parts of the hobby needing to add T5s for both spectrum and coverage to their LEDs started this. In the end, they ended up with the same, or more, wattage than they had before. Then, when panels started to fail, or they wanted a new app, then they figured out that a $40-75 dollar bulb (if you buy smartly, like most of us do), is not all that expensive.

Bottom line - 5 years for a LED panel before replacement is a safe figure for the typical hobbyist. Some get more, some get less. Bulbs are cheap compared to this when you save no electrical costs. Heat can be a big issue in warm area, but it might be a blessing in some climate and on larger tanks. Most who argue that heat is a huge deal don't probably even know that the newer bulbs by Hamilton, Giesemann, RB, etc. have way less IR and do not get nearly as hot... but that doesn't fit their narrative so why would they learn, I guess?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Agree on the 14k 150.
This is my frag tank, not alot in their currently. 36x24x12.
18" off the surface.
1st is the phoenix 14k de hqi.
2nd is the 17.5 giesemann.
The 14k is a much bluer than the 17.5 k.
I like the whiter 17.5 look myself.

that is considerably more white. I find the camera creates extra blueness for the 14k bulbs...or at least from my iPhone.

I‘m curious to know what the Giesmann 13k and 14k bulbs look like. JL has them on their website....considering snagging them.

personally I’ve also liked 10k with actinic supplements.

 

[X-37B]

that is considerably more white. I find the camera creates extra blueness for the 14k bulbs...or at least from my iPhone.

I‘m curious to know what the Giesmann 13k and 14k bulbs look like. JL has them on their website....considering snagging them.

personally I’ve also liked 10k with actinic supplements.

Thats pretty close to what they look like in person.
The 150 14k looks more blue than the 250 14k for whatever reason.
Both run the same ballast.

 

[SaracensRugby]

@jda I just read this whole thread, and am running into a lighting issue and request your advice. Ordering an 84x36x24 tank. Plan on having mixed tank, with SPS making up 2/3rds of corals.
Current ATI T5 user, very happy with the light. Now researching what to do on my new tank and the length provides an issue: I need a couple T5 fixtures, or one 60" T5 with supplemental LEDs on sides, both of which are not clean looking, and bulbs on 2x8 bulb fixtures adds up. Or the 1 60" fixture leaves some real shaded parts with 1 foot of no light on each end.

To your earlier points, I can't see spending less than 3-4k on "quality" LEDS ie Orphek Icon or ATi Stratons. And that may be light cost wise given coverage needed. If I got all of them to last 4 years I would be surprised..

So, to my question: what MH setup would you run on an 84" length tank? This will be in the basement, in my office. I am in Chicago, but my basement does not run that cold. Thanks in advance!

 

[jda]

If 36 is deep and not tall, then you will need probably 400w MH with reflectors that spread more - I would put the lights over the corals and not try and light all 36" of the tank and especially the sandy areas where there are no corals. If the 36 is tall, then 250w with reflectors that punch more would be fine. 3 of either would cover the area.

Fans will keep the tanks cool. Whether or not the basement heats up depends on many factors. I run 10 MH in our basement and it barely moves the needle, but I have all of the vents closed in the winter and in the summer, the attic fan pulls in cool night air mostly through that lower level - this helps with fresh air, pH and all kinds of other things. When the AC is on (rarely), I just open up the vents down there and you can barely tell any heat difference.

 

[SaracensRugby]

36" is deep yes. Thanks! Looking up the Reefbrite MH/LED systems now, so more research to be done.