LED or Metal Halide

[zalick]

Facts are facts. PAR per watt barely puts LEDs ahead...

If you went from 500w of halides to 200w of LEDs, you were either severely over lighting your tank or you are now severely under lighting it. That's just a fact. You may not see it today or next month but you will see it down the road.

Your whole post is spot on, but I wanted to highlight this part in case future readers missed it.

So much misinformation/disinformation being put out regarding halides.!

 

[Kfactor]

From another thread Adam from battlecorals said he can’t really tell a difference in growth between the two, his income depends on growing corals fast so that was pretty much the definitive post for me as he uses all 3 lighting types on the same systems.

i have never been on battle corals but when i look at ppl using led do you see how many fixures they need to get the same par and coverge . the amount of money thay have in fuxures is crazy .

 

[rtparty]

Your whole post is spot on, but I wanted to highlight this part in case future readers missed it.

So much misinformation/disinformation being put out regarding halides.!

It's just crazy to me how people think LEDs are 2x (or higher) more efficient than other lighting sources. With the current technology, it's not possible in any way. You can not replace a 250w halide with a 90w LED. It is physically impossible right now.

 

[xiaoxiy]

It's just crazy to me how people think LEDs are 2x (or higher) more efficient than other lighting sources. With the current technology, it's not possible in any way. You can not replace a 250w halide with a 90w LED. It is physically impossible right now.

While the 90 to 250W is impossible, I do think it’s reasonable to expect to replace a 250W halide with a ~150W led though.

 

[vanpire]

First, I am not in the camp that thinks LEDs cannot grow corals. They can and I have seen this with my own eyes. Although the most successful reefer I personally know recently added T5s to his LEDs in his new set up. But that is beside the point. For me, it is TCO, and quality LED’s initial costs are so high that it currently doesn’t make sense to use. I think LEDs TCO (total cost of ownership) equation will probably work with larger set-ups because for LEDs it is not just PAR but having enough fixtures for even light spread.

For example, someone might need 2 x radion xr30 24” x 30” tank running at 50%. But it is probably possible to use 4x radions for a 48” x 60” tank running at 100% and raising it higher to get a similar spread and par as the first tank. So 1 radion per 2.5 sq foot for the first tank and 1 radion per 5 sq feet of tank. So the fixture cost is half in the larger tank, and that might make the TCO workable.

Maybe new designs and LED fixtures in the near future will make the TCO better. Reefbrites and Orphek Tubes seem very interesting. As they get better, the LED TCO will be more inline with T5s and MH.

 

[hart24601]

i have never been on battle corals but when i look at ppl using led do you see how many fixures they need to get the same par and coverge . the amount of money thay have in fuxures is crazy .

I think people might have overreacted a bit to shading when was found to be an issue. Here is one of the nicest systems in the world. He uses 1 reef breeder fixture per 24” width of aquarium. Thread is worth a read.

therman's 12 year old SPS system...top down shot, starting to enjoy this tank again

Absolutely beautiful photos!!

www.reef2reef.com

 

[TerraFerma]

I think people might have overreacted a bit to shading when was found to be an issue. Here is one of the nicest systems in the world. He uses 1 reef breeder fixture per 24” width of aquarium. Thread is worth a read.

therman's 12 year old SPS system...top down shot, starting to enjoy this tank again

Absolutely beautiful photos!!

www.reef2reef.com

The Reef Breeders are cool because they are larger fixtures and have the led's spread out, which gives better spread than most of the smaller fixtures that have the LEDs in a smaller area or in pucks. So one would expect the RB's have relatively better coverage.

 

[zalick]

I think people might have overreacted a bit to shading when was found to be an issue. Here is one of the nicest systems in the world. He uses 1 reef breeder fixture per 24” width of aquarium. Thread is worth a read.

therman's 12 year old SPS system...top down shot, starting to enjoy this tank again

Absolutely beautiful photos!!

www.reef2reef.com

He has a beautiful frag tank but keep in mind it's only 12" deep.

 

[hart24601]

He has a beautiful frag tank but keep in mind it's only 12" deep.

Page one he says the below and while some are still diy fixtures I think most are reefbreeders. All led either way which I think is relevant to this thread.

“On that note, this 36x36x18 tank was set up first in 2010, moved to a new house in 2012, and nearly crashed (due entirely to my neglect) in 2013. After the near crash it was consolidated into one system with an older SPS setup, and the whole thing has evolved into a sprawling ~730 gallons across 7 aquariums and a stock tank.”

 

[zalick]

Page one he says the below and while some are still diy fixtures I think most are reefbreeders. All led either way which I think is relevant to this thread.

“On that note, this 36x36x18 tank was set up first in 2010, moved to a new house in 2012, and nearly crashed (due entirely to my neglect) in 2013. After the near crash it was consolidated into one system with an older SPS setup, and the whole thing has evolved into a sprawling ~730 gallons across 7 aquariums and a stock tank.”

My bad. He mentioned in a later post 2' x 6' x 1'.

18" is still on the shallower side. I've found LED do best ~18" or less.

I agree though its a good example of a well run LED system. My first LED was a cree DiY circa 2009 much like his and worked pretty well. Corals Didn't look like his though!

 

[rtparty]

While the 90 to 250W is impossible, I do think it’s reasonable to expect to replace a 250W halide with a ~150W led though.

It's much closer to about 220-230w of LEDs. I just recently setup and tested 2 XR15s vs 1 250w halide. The Radions at 100% are about 210w and couldn't keep up. The halide had better spread too.

I really liked my Radions. I could happily run a tank with them. For my upgrade, it would take 10 at a minimum with 12 being the better option. That's $4200 in Radions. I'll be less than $2000 with 3 halides and couple XHO strips. I could probably have gotten away with 3 ATI Straton and some XHO strips. So roughly $4000 there to cover a 72*36*24 tank

 

[xiaoxiy]

It's much closer to about 220-230w of LEDs. I just recently setup and tested 2 XR15s vs 1 250w halide. The Radions at 100% are about 210w and couldn't keep up. The halide had better spread too.

I really liked my Radions. I could happily run a tank with them. For my upgrade, it would take 10 at a minimum with 12 being the better option. That's $4200 in Radions. I'll be less than $2000 with 3 halides and couple XHO strips. I could probably have gotten away with 3 ATI Straton and some XHO strips. So roughly $4000 there to cover a 72*36*24 tank

I'm surprised!

Here's how much PAR I got out of a single 250W Phoenix 14k on a M80 ballast (giesemann infinity fixture). It was over a 36x24x24 system and hung 12ish inches above water level. Any lower and my tank got too hot. PAR was measured with an Apogee MQ-510 PAR meter.

I'm surprised you couldn't get similar PAR values with 2x XR15s at 100%.

Here were the values with the T5s turned on (for a total of ~300W Halide + 98W T5). Granted, Giesemann T5 reflectors + no active cooling really screwed with T5 output...

I current run 2x Reefi LEDs at 144W each (for a total of 288W) and exceed the PAR of the halide + T5 (~390W). On second thought, the T5s were kind of the weak link.

Next time my friend is over with the Apogee MQ-510, I can see how much LED power it roughly takes to match the halide exactly.

 

[zalick]

I'm surprised!

Here's how much PAR I got out of a single 250W Phoenix 14k on a M80 ballast (giesemann infinity fixture). It was over a 36x24x24 system and hung 12ish inches above water level. Any lower and my tank got too hot. PAR was measured with an Apogee MQ-510 PAR meter.

I'm surprised you couldn't get similar PAR values with 2x XR15s at 100%.

Here were the values with the T5s turned on (for a total of ~300W Halide + 98W T5). Granted, Giesemann T5 reflectors + no active cooling really screwed with T5 output...

I current run 2x Reefi LEDs at 144W each (for a total of 288W) and exceed the PAR of the halide + T5 (~390W). On second thought, the T5s were kind of the weak link.

Next time my friend is over with the Apogee MQ-510, I can see how much LED power it roughly takes to match the halide exactly.

Very interested to see your results! Be nice to see an actual watt v. Watt comparison on the same tank.

 

[rtparty]

I'm surprised!

Here's how much PAR I got out of a single 250W Phoenix 14k on a M80 ballast (giesemann infinity fixture). It was over a 36x24x24 system and hung 12ish inches above water level. Any lower and my tank got too hot. PAR was measured with an Apogee MQ-510 PAR meter.

I'm surprised you couldn't get similar PAR values with 2x XR15s at 100%.

Here were the values with the T5s turned on (for a total of ~300W Halide + 98W T5). Granted, Giesemann T5 reflectors + no active cooling really screwed with T5 output...

I current run 2x Reefi LEDs at 144W each (for a total of 288W) and exceed the PAR of the halide + T5 (~390W). On second thought, the T5s were kind of the weak link.

Next time my friend is over with the Apogee MQ-510, I can see how much LED power it roughly takes to match the halide exactly.

Here are my results. I think PAR only tells so much though. It's just one measurement that we can use but sadly, it is the easiest to quantify when comparing lights. It is definitely flawed so I take even my own findings with a grain of salt. What these numbers don't show is how much more light wraps around the corals and fills in every crack and crevice. The halide light just comes from everywhere with the reflectors.

 

[TerraFerma]

I'm surprised!

Here's how much PAR I got out of a single 250W Phoenix 14k on a M80 ballast (giesemann infinity fixture). It was over a 36x24x24 system and hung 12ish inches above water level. Any lower and my tank got too hot. PAR was measured with an Apogee MQ-510 PAR meter.

I'm surprised you couldn't get similar PAR values with 2x XR15s at 100%.

Here were the values with the T5s turned on (for a total of ~300W Halide + 98W T5). Granted, Giesemann T5 reflectors + no active cooling really screwed with T5 output...

I current run 2x Reefi LEDs at 144W each (for a total of 288W) and exceed the PAR of the halide + T5 (~390W). On second thought, the T5s were kind of the weak link.

Next time my friend is over with the Apogee MQ-510, I can see how much LED power it roughly takes to match the halide exactly.

The Infiniti's are sexy fixtures. But the tiny reflector on the MH bit and lack of cooling on the T5 bit made it a pass for me. The reflector matters a lot for halides, particularly DE since they can shove them in a tiny reflector and call it a day.

 

[vanpire]

The Infiniti's are sexy fixtures. But the tiny reflector on the MH bit and lack of cooling on the T5 bit made it a pass for me. The reflector matters a lot for halides, particularly DE since they can shove them in a tiny reflector and call it a day.

I have the infinity, and I agree that the reflector can be better. I used it and it puts out pretty good lights, but I agree that the design can be better. I think it would have been good to have individual reflectors on the t5s also. But what a cool looking fixture though.

 

[X-37B]

Here are my results. I think PAR only tells so much though. It's just one measurement that we can use but sadly, it is the easiest to quantify when comparing lights. It is definitely flawed so I take even my own findings with a grain of salt. What these numbers don't show is how much more light wraps around the corals and fills in every crack and crevice. The halide light just comes from everywhere with the reflectors.

For halides the reflector makes a big difference in par levels.
Try a lumen bright for max par levels, coverage, and low heat transfer.

 

[xiaoxiy]

Here are my results. I think PAR only tells so much though. It's just one measurement that we can use but sadly, it is the easiest to quantify when comparing lights. It is definitely flawed so I take even my own findings with a grain of salt. What these numbers don't show is how much more light wraps around the corals and fills in every crack and crevice. The halide light just comes from everywhere with the reflectors.

That's fascinating. What PAR meter did you use by the way? If it was the original Apogee Sensor/Seneye, I'm wondering if the Radion Blues were too blue-heavy and needed manual PAR correction.

 

[xiaoxiy]

Very interested to see your results! Be nice to see an actual watt v. Watt comparison on the same tank.

I'll try to do that next time my friend comes over.

 

[hart24601]

I'm surprised!

Here's how much PAR I got out of a single 250W Phoenix 14k on a M80 ballast (giesemann infinity fixture). It was over a 36x24x24 system and hung 12ish inches above water level. Any lower and my tank got too hot. PAR was measured with an Apogee MQ-510 PAR meter.

I'm surprised you couldn't get similar PAR values with 2x XR15s at 100%.

Here were the values with the T5s turned on (for a total of ~300W Halide + 98W T5). Granted, Giesemann T5 reflectors + no active cooling really screwed with T5 output...

I current run 2x Reefi LEDs at 144W each (for a total of 288W) and exceed the PAR of the halide + T5 (~390W). On second thought, the T5s were kind of the weak link.

Next time my friend is over with the Apogee MQ-510, I can see how much LED power it roughly takes to match the halide exactly.

What he isn’t saying is that after the switch to reefi his alk consumption went up looking at his alkatronic (aka alk levels fell) so his tank growth responded better to leds with no other changes - but he is a humble guy.