lets debate this.

[ddc0715]

why should you not dose the all in one products like seachems reef trace, red sea abcd and replenish for example? FYI this is not product bashing thread

 

[blaxsun]

1. You perform frequent water changes (every 1-2 weeks).
2. You're cheap.
3. You have a FOWLR tank.

 

[ddc0715]

i do not do water changes 1.5 years since the last one.
DEFINALTY NOT CHEAP
yes i have a fowler and 2 reef tanks.

 

[hexcolor reef]

It all depends on your reef consumption.
Also i guess a lot of reefers don’t own test kits for trace elements. But if your coral are consuming a lot even after water change then I would dose. I dose trace elements .03ml daily

 

[ddc0715]

i beleive and i think that we all can agree that we should only dose what our tank needs. if you have 5 elements that are low in your system / in high demand by your corals and you can only get those five elements thru one product that conatins 15 addtional elements, then would one agree the your oding the tank on the 15 elements that are not being used by your corals as fast as the 5 you need?

 

[KrisReef]

i beleive and i think that we all can agree that we should only dose what our tank needs. if you have 5 elements that are low in your system / in high demand by your corals and you can only get those five elements thru one product that conatins 15 addtional elements, then would one agree the your oding the tank on the 15 elements that are not being used by your corals as fast as the 5 you need?

Generally, yes. I think this is the argument against "All-n-1" not being the right way to deal with elements, especially in your case where you don't want to do water changes for replenishments. :smiling-face-with-sunglasses:

 

[Kylesreeftank]

Generally speaking Calcium Formate can form Formaldehyde via biological pathways in reef tanks.

There's ways it breaks down to carbon dioxide such as UV, oxidation, Pseudomonas, Methylobacterium via metabolic processes.

My two cents: you probably get more growth without afr, but then you give up the convenience of afr. Whether or not the formaldehyde has an effect on the basis of dilution, the above processes, UV, etc, seems to be determined, but I haven't seen people's tanks crash because of the product and I could just be picking cherries in my memory with that statement.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

why should you not dose the all in one products like seachems reef trace, red sea abcd and replenish for example? FYI this is not product bashing thread

Maybe you do not need one or more of the components.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Generally speaking Calcium Formate can form Formaldehyde via biological pathways in reef tanks.

There's ways it breaks down to carbon dioxide such as UV, oxidation, Pseudomonas, Methylobacterium via metabolic processes.

My two cents: you probably get more growth without afr, but then you give up the convenience of afr. Whether or not the formaldehyde has an effect on the basis of dilution, the above processes, UV, etc, seems to be determined, but I haven't seen people's tanks crash because of the product and I could just be picking cherries in my memory with that statement.

Did you post on the wrong thread?

 

[taricha]

Sorry to bump this old thread. But I heard this being discussed elsewhere, and was curious.
@Randy Holmes-Farley was your non-response to this assertion because it's nonsense that doesn't happen or because it's likely a real effect but so small in our system that people need not worry about it?

"Generally speaking Calcium Formate can form Formaldehyde via biological pathways in reef tanks.

There's ways it breaks down to carbon dioxide such as UV, oxidation, Pseudomonas, Methylobacterium via metabolic processes."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm not sure why at the time I didn't address it, and may have just missed it or discounted its importance.

To give as good of an answer as I can, I spent a little time reviewing the literature on effects of formate in the environment and its degradation, and how and when it can be reduced to formaldehyde.

I consider this concern to be insignificant in the context of a reef tank. Formation of formaldehyde from formate is not a big process, and scientists trying to get bacteria to do it for CO2 capture purposes have been genetically engineering bacteria:

https://academic.oup.com/sumbio/article/1/1/qvae024/7746760
However, the scope of formate assimilation pathways is restricted by the limited number of natural formate-assimilating enzymes. To overcome this limitation, several new-to-nature routes for formate assimilation based on its reduction to formaldehyde have been proposed, but they suffer from low catalytic efficiencies and cannot yet support bacterial growth.

Just finding possible biochemical pathways to produce something bad from something we add does not mean it is significant or a problem.

As an analogy, acetaldehyde (like formaldehyde but one carbon bigger) is a suspected carcinogen and is biologically formed from both ethanol and acetic acid. While these effects concern researchers of human health for folks who drink considerable amounts of alcohol, it is not apparently a problem at the levels we use in reef tanks (based on user experiences over a number of years now), and not so much of a problem in humans that alcohol and vinegar are considered high health risks.

 

[taricha]

Excellent, thanks for the thoughtful answer.
I couldn't find anything that ruled it out nor let me gauge how difficult it would be.

 

[Ryan - Serious Reefs]

I'm not sure why at the time I didn't address it, and may have just missed it or discounted its importance.

To give as good of an answer as I can, I spent a little time reviewing the literature on effects of formate in the environment and its degradation, and how and when it can be reduced to formaldehyde.

I consider this concern to be insignificant in the context of a reef tank. Formation of formaldehyde from formate is not a big process, and scientists trying to get bacteria to do it for CO2 capture purposes have been genetically engineering bacteria:

https://academic.oup.com/sumbio/article/1/1/qvae024/7746760
However, the scope of formate assimilation pathways is restricted by the limited number of natural formate-assimilating enzymes. To overcome this limitation, several new-to-nature routes for formate assimilation based on its reduction to formaldehyde have been proposed, but they suffer from low catalytic efficiencies and cannot yet support bacterial growth.

Just finding possible biochemical pathways to produce something bad from something we add does not mean it is significant or a problem.

As an analogy, acetaldehyde (like formaldehyde but one carbon bigger) is a suspected carcinogen and is biologically formed from both ethanol and acetic acid. While these effects concern researchers of human health for folks who drink considerable amounts of alcohol, it is not apparently a problem at the levels we use in reef tanks (based on user experiences over a number of years now), and not so much of a problem in humans that alcohol and vinegar are considered high health risks.

I had a manufacturer suggest that in very high-consumption reef tanks ( 2-3 DKH a day), enough formaldehyde could be produced to negatively affect animals that are particularly sensitive to it, such as Acropora and starfish.

I’m curious whether you think this has any real legitimacy or if it’s more likely FUD. Is there a way to estimate formaldehyde creation or test for it?

 

[BryanM]

why should you not dose the all in one products like seachems reef trace, red sea abcd and replenish for example? FYI this is not product bashing thread

No reason not to.

I stopped AFR because long term my calcium was creeping up up up, but it worked well and other than that had fantastic ICP results

 

[nickynels]

1. You perform frequent water changes (every 1-2 weeks).
2. You're cheap.
3. You have a FOWLR tank.

What is a FOWLR tank

 

[nickynels]

1. You perform frequent water changes (every 1-2 weeks).
2. You're cheap.
3. You have a FOWLR tank.

What is a FOWLR tank

Nevermind just found out

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I had a manufacturer suggest that in very high-consumption reef tanks ( 2-3 DKH a day), enough formaldehyde could be produced to negatively affect animals that are particularly sensitive to it, such as Acropora and starfish.

I’m curious whether you think this has any real legitimacy or if it’s more likely FUD. Is there a way to estimate formaldehyde creation or test for it?

I see no reason to think it could form toxic levels of formaldehyde. If someone has chemical or toxicity evidence, I’m certainly open to it.

One can speculate all sorts of things “could” be converted into toxic things.

Cyanide can be biologically made from the amino acid glycine. Does that mean reef tanks dosing amino acids are at risk?

Obviously not. I think one would want more evidence than the random thought that something could happen.

 

[Ryan - Serious Reefs]

I see no reason to think it could form toxic levels of formaldehyde. If someone has chemical or toxicity evidence, I’m certainly open to it.

One can speculate all sorts of things “could” be converted into toxic things.

Cyanide can be biologically made from the amino acid glycine. Does that mean reef tanks dosing amino acids are at risk?

Obviously not. I think one would want more evidence than the random thought that something could happen.

Deciphering the difference between truth, falsehoods, immaterial FUD, and the things we simply haven’t learned yet is a delicate dance.

It sounds like you see this one as likely immaterial FUD. Thanks for the help.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I had a manufacturer suggest that in very high-consumption reef tanks ( 2-3 DKH a day), enough formaldehyde could be produced to negatively affect animals that are particularly sensitive to it, such as Acropora and starfish.

Uh oh.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Deciphering the difference between truth, falsehoods, immaterial FUD, and the things we simply haven’t learned yet is a delicate dance.

It sounds like you see this one as likely immaterial FUD. Thanks for the help.

Yes, and you’re welcome. :)