Let's Talk About Heterotrophic Bacteria for Controlling DOC, Nitrogen, and Phosphates

[ReefGeezer]

I'd like to explore this issue in depth. I'm not talking about autotrophic nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria that use a little organic carbon in their process. I'm interested in the heterotrophic bacteria that uses organic carbon directly. You know, the stuff that breaks down organic compounds and/or binds N&P. As I am not a biologist and haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn in a while, I don't have much knowledge on the subject. I may not even be asking the questions correctly. I am curious though. So, I'll ask a couple of basic questions to get the ball rolling...

1. Are Heterotrophic Bacteria a big player in the operation of most reef tanks?
2. Can the growth of Heterotrophic Bacteria be limited when the organic carbon, nitrogen, and phosphate in the water column does not reflect the exact ratio at which they use them?
3. Can that growth be limited at all as long as inorganic N & P are detectible but very low & can a tank full of well fed fish ever be carbon limited?
4. Do bacterial in a bottle products actually supply Heterotrophic Bacteria that is good for a reef tank? Do you use one of these products? How did it work?
5. If not using live rock or bottled bacteria, is it probable that these bacteria are still present in the tank?

These are just some off the cuff questions to provoke thought and discussion. Anything on this subject would be appreciated. Come on, tell me what you think. Don't be shy.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'd like to explore this issue in depth. I'm not talking about autotrophic nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria that use a little organic carbon in their process. I'm interested in the heterotrophic bacteria that uses organic carbon directly. You know, the stuff that breaks down organic compounds and/or binds N&P. As I am not a biologist and haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn in a while, I don't have much knowledge on the subject. I may not even be asking the questions correctly. I am curious though. So, I'll ask a couple of basic questions to get the ball rolling...

this is a really interesting topic and one of my favourites at the moment, heterotrophic bacteria assimilation of nutrients is quite interesting. I’ll add some of my views to your questions.

1. Are Heterotrophic Bacteria a big player in the operation of most reef tanks?

Heterotrophic bacteria is the dominant specie in all ref aquaria according to aquabiomics and logic, nitrifying autotrophic bacteria can only deal with ammonia and it takes 16 hours to multiply, most heterotrophic bacterias takes only 5-20 minutes to multiply, it becomes survival of the fittest

one of the most important aspects of heterotrophic bacteria is the ability to reduce ammonia availability, one interesting observation that I see a lot is the development of nuisance green algae’s once this bacteria becomes limited in nutrients.
Nuisance green algaes imo will be the second organism in our systems at utilising ammonia as a energy source.

2. Can the growth of Heterotrophic Bacteria be limited when the organic carbon, nitrogen, and phosphate in the water column does not reflect the exact ratio at which they use them?

There will be other organisms in a system affecting nutrients, the bacteria will only be affected if nutrients become fully depleted.

3. Can that growth be limited at all as long as inorganic N & P are detectible but very low & can a tank full of well fed fish ever be carbon limited?

The availability of carbon will be the main limiting factor here.

A tank full of fish will in most scenarios be limited in carbon, hence the raise in nutrients and most having to source additional sources of organic carbon or macro algaes to aid with the nutrient export.
both methods work by assimilation of nutrients, and exported in similar ways. Macro algae will have to be regularly pruned and bacteria will have to be exported via protein skimmer

4. Do bacterial in a bottle products actually supply Heterotrophic Bacteria that is good for a reef tank? Do you use one of these products? How did it work?

Most likely they do, in addition to nutrient as we spoke yesterday.

5. If not using live rock or bottled bacteria, is it probable that these bacteria are still present in the tank?

According to aquabiomics they do.

one interesting observation is the different methods to cycle a tank, many older reefers will always prefer the shrimp method to any other modern method to cycle a tank, if we were to make observations the break down of the shrimp will only be possible to do with the aid of heterotrophic bacteria that could mean that those thanks are actually started with heterotrophic bacteria instead of nitrifying autotrophic bacteria.

These are just some off the cuff questions to provoke thought and discussion. Anything on this subject would be appreciated. Come on, tell me what you think. Don't be shy.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Heterotrophic bacteria is the dominant specie in all ref aquaria according to aquabiomics and logic, nitrifying autotrophic bacteria can only deal with ammonia and it takes 16 hours to multiply, most heterotrophic bacterias takes only 5-20 minutes to multiply, it becomes survival of the fittest

Just read @AquaBiomics post about live rock and microbial populations. Very interesting. I may have to rethink what is happening in my tank right now. Switching my view away from the autotrophic nitrification processes to considering heterotrophic nutrient processing might help me figure out some issues I'm having.

one of the most important aspects of heterotrophic bacteria is the ability to reduce ammonia availability, one interesting observation that I see a lot is the development of nuisance green algae’s once this bacteria becomes limited in nutrients.
Nuisance green algaes imo will be the second organism in our systems at utilising ammonia as a energy source.

Can I assume the limiting nutrient in your observation is carbon?

The availability of carbon will be the main limiting factor here.

A tank full of fish will in most scenarios be limited in carbon, hence the raise in nutrients and most having to source additional sources of organic carbon or macro algaes to aid with the nutrient export.
both methods work by assimilation of nutrients, and exported in similar ways. Macro algae will have to be regularly pruned and bacteria will have to be exported via protein skimmer

Most likely they do, in addition to nutrient as we spoke yesterday.

Here's where I am getting lost. So... I have a 90 that has 17 not so small fish in it. I feed the crap out of it just to keep inorganic N & P detectable. I feed 2-3 cubes of frozen brine/mysis/mussels and a one inch square of LRS Reef Frenzy per day. Three times a week I feed fresh chopped whole clams and 30 ML of Reef Energy AB+. To me, that seems like a lot of carbon input. The skimmer is not super efficient (Curve 7), and other than rock, I have no other regular filtration. I don't even have a lot of corals in the tank yet. I just can't see how the tank could be carbon limited... but I am struggling with small and varying outbreaks of Cyano and hair algae.

So, am I looking at the term "carbon" incorrectly. Are we really talking about free organic carbon (like from carbon dosing) rather than that bound in organic compounds in the tank?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Just read @AquaBiomics post about live rock and microbial populations. Very interesting. I may have to rethink what is happening in my tank right now. Switching my view away from the autotrophic nitrification processes to considering heterotrophic nutrient processing might help me figure out some issues I'm having.

Wend I first realised that the main strain was heterotrophic to me was like a revelation moment and all seem to be easier to understand

Can I assume the limiting nutrient in your observation is carbon?

yes just for the amount of bacteria, nitrates and phosphates will also limit the bacteria if they not available

Here's where I am getting lost. So... I have a 90 that has 17 not so small fish in it. I feed the crap out of it just to keep inorganic N & P detectable. I feed 2-3 cubes of frozen brine/mysis/mussels and a one inch square of LRS Reef Frenzy per day. Three times a week I feed fresh chopped whole clams and 30 ML of Reef Energy AB+. To me, that seems like a lot of carbon input. The skimmer is not super efficient (Curve 7), and other than rock, I have no other regular filtration. I don't even have a lot of corals in the tank yet. I just can't see how the tank could be carbon limited... but I am struggling with small and varying outbreaks of Cyano and hair algae.

in your particular case you may have to much carbon, making the system limited in Inorganic nutrients like nitrates and phosphates, Reef energy AB+ is rich in carbohydrates than will become a source of organic carbon.
one of my observation is that in situations were carbon becomes abundant and inorganic nutrients become limited there will be a abundance of organic carbon and organic nutrient that can feed Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates, the organic nutrients used as fertiliser in agriculture nitrogen and phosphorus will cause blooms in lakes rivers and oceans, it’s not surprising that in the absence of nitrates and phosphates this species will also bloom in our tanks.
One way that you could look at this would be by decreasing the amount of AB+ or to add inorganic nutrients in the form of inorganic nitrates or phosphates to your system. I would advice a off the shelf product as most will contain organic forms of nitrogen and phosphorus that would be detrimental to a system that is suffering from Cyanobacteria, dinoflagellates or nuisance green algaes if that makes sense.
The option in this situation has to be pharmaceutical grade inorganic nutrients like sodium nitrate, calcium nitrate or potassium nitrate.

So, am I looking at the term "carbon" incorrectly. Are we really talking about free organic carbon (like from carbon dosing) rather than that bound in organic compounds in the tank?

Organic carbon comes in many different forms for example carbohydrates can become glucose and glucose is one of the methods used to grow Cyanobacteria in lab conditions.

other forms could be the well known ethanol, sucrose, molasses etc….

 

[ReefGeezer]

in your particular case you may have to much carbon, making the system limited in Inorganic nutrients like nitrates and phosphates, Reef energy AB+ is rich in carbohydrates than will become a source of organic carbon.
one of my observation is that in situations were carbon becomes abundant and inorganic nutrients become limited there will be a abundance of organic carbon and organic nutrient that can feed Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates, the organic nutrients used as fertiliser in agriculture nitrogen and phosphorus will cause blooms in lakes rivers and oceans, it’s not surprising that in the absence of nitrates and phosphates this species will also bloom in our tanks.

I hear ya... but.. At last test, I had 10+ ppm of nitrate and .08 ppm of phosphate in the tank... a little higher than the normal 5 and .06 ppm. I'd think if there were excess carbon, that would drop rather rapidly. Could the tank be somehow "bacteria limited". I'll test again tonight.

One way that you could look at this would be by decreasing the amount of AB+ or to add inorganic nutrients in the form of inorganic nitrates or phosphates to your system. I would advice a off the shelf product as most will contain organic forms of nitrogen and phosphorus that would be detrimental to a system that is suffering from Cyanobacteria, dinoflagellates or nuisance green algaes if that makes sense.
The option in this situation has to be pharmaceutical grade inorganic nutrients like sodium nitrate, calcium nitrate or potassium nitrate.

I'll slow down of the AB+ for a minute, although the corals love it. I have ammonium chloride, sodium nitrate, and trisodium phosphate solutions I keep on hand. I'm not using it now, but that's how I got N & P to the current levels. Yea... got a little heavy handed!

Sorry about the edit. Got chemical name confused. Sucks getting old!

 

[ReefGeezer]

Bump for everybody else! Hey everybody, @sixty_reefer is great and all, but come join the party. What are your thoughts on the subject? Any response is great whether in response to my questions or current situation, or more broadly.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@Reefahholic would be interesting to see your take on the subject.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I hear ya... but.. At last test, I had 10+ ppm of nitrate and .08 ppm of phosphate in the tank... a little higher than the normal 5 and .06 ppm. I'd think if there were excess carbon, that would drop rather rapidly. Could the tank be somehow "bacteria limited". I'll test again tonight.

I'll slow down of the AB+ for a minute, although the corals love it. I have ammonium chloride, sodium nitrate, and trisodium phosphate solutions I keep on hand. I'm not using it now, but that's how I got N & P to the current levels. Yea... got a little heavy handed!

Sorry about the edit. Got chemical name confused. Sucks getting old!

It’s not just the carbon unfortunately, I enjoy macro algae’s they have the same needs as coral for nutrients and I often dose several forms of organic nutrients including amino acids. One thing I come to realise is that most autotrophic organisms in our systems will prefer organic nutrient in the form of nitrogen and phosphorus, it is unfortunate that besides coral And macro algae other autotrophic organisms like dinoflagellates, Cyanobacteria and nuisance green algae will also take the advantage of excess organic nutrients. I’m some occasions were we see them bloom in high nutrients situations could be because the added organic nutrients that are allowing for some species to be able to thrive. In those situations I still find beneficial to increase inorganic nutrients like nitrates and phosphates to aid the balance created and help heterotrophic bacteria to compete for nutrients. I don’t have it all figured out although discussions like this should happen more often imo.

 

[Dan_P]

I'd like to explore this issue in depth. I'm not talking about autotrophic nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria that use a little organic carbon in their process. I'm interested in the heterotrophic bacteria that uses organic carbon directly. You know, the stuff that breaks down organic compounds and/or binds N&P. As I am not a biologist and haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn in a while, I don't have much knowledge on the subject. I may not even be asking the questions correctly. I am curious though. So, I'll ask a couple of basic questions to get the ball rolling...

1. Are Heterotrophic Bacteria a big player in the operation of most reef tanks?

Heterotrophic bacteria among other heterotrophic organisms consume organic matter and poop out ammonia and phosphate, roughly speaking. The reason is heterotrophic organisms obtain energy from oxidizing organic carbon, but organic matter has nitrogen and phosphorous attached. Heterotrophs just don’t need so much N and P and the elements stuff are excreted. Heterotrophic bacteria are the ultimate clean up crew.

2. Can the growth of Heterotrophic Bacteria be limited when the organic carbon, nitrogen, and phosphate in the water column does not reflect the exact ratio at which they use them?

Trying to figure out what is happening in an aquarium by the nitrate and phosphate levels is like trying to figure out what’s wrong with your car by sniffing the tail pipe exhaust. It can work occasionally : -)

The water column chemistry is a poor representation of what benthic heterotrophic bacteria “see”.

3. Can that growth be limited at all as long as inorganic N & P are detectible but very low & can a tank full of well fed fish ever be carbon limited?

Carbon limitation is assured for heterotrophs. Food is the wrong ratio of elements.

4. Do bacterial in a bottle products actually supply Heterotrophic Bacteria that is good for a reef tank? Do you use one of these products? How did it work?

Bottled bacteria might be baloney.

5. If not using live rock or bottled bacteria, is it probable that these bacteria are still present in the tank?

Every time you introduced something to an aquarium, it is being inoculated with ndw organisms. What we don’t understand yet is whether the native microbiome is resistant to new species joining the biofilm, which if it is, adding bottled bacteria is a waste of money.

These are just some off the cuff questions to provoke thought and discussion. Anything on this subject would be appreciated. Come on, tell me what you think. Don't be shy.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@ReefGeezer its unfortunately that only a handful of people know the subject, bump to see if we can find some more

 

[Who me?]

1. Are Heterotrophic Bacteria a big player in the operation of most reef tanks?

Yes, if there is ample food source for the bacteria, they will easily double in population approximately every 18 minutes.

2. Can the growth of Heterotrophic Bacteria be limited when the organic carbon, nitrogen, and phosphate in the water column does not reflect the exact ratio at which they use them?

The biggest limiting factor is availability of organic waste. Specific ratios seem to be of little importance.

3. Can that growth be limited at all as long as inorganic N & P are detectible but very low & can a tank full of well fed fish ever be carbon limited?

Again, the limiting factor would be the organic/carbon byproducts.
Nothing is limitless.

4. Do bacterial in a bottle products actually supply Heterotrophic Bacteria that is good for a reef tank? Do you use one of these products? How did it work?
5. If not using live rock or bottled bacteria, is it probable that these bacteria are still present in the tank?

I firmly believe many of these products do in fact contain heterotrophic bacteria (microbacter clean for instance) As I'm sure many do not.

Like nitrifying bacteria, heterotrophic bacteria is present in every tank regardless of whether your artificially introducing.

 

[Susan Edwards]

man, i need this dumbed down into "talk to me like I'm in kindergarten" lol's Way over my head, but I'm trying to absorb and figure it out

 

[Dan_P]

Yes, if there is ample food source for the bacteria, they will easily double in population approximately every 18 minutes.

The biggest limiting factor is availability of organic waste. Specific ratios seem to be of little importance.

Where ratios are actually important is when you want to minimize nitrate accumulation. By keeping the ratio of C:N in food at the appropriate level, you favor heterotrophic bacteria over the autotrophs. The reason being, a high food C:N ratio provides C for energy and all the N can go into biomass and not to NO3. Reefers do this when they carbon dose, though they don’t calculate the C:N ratio needed but find it empirically when they establish a maintenance dose.

 

[beesnreefs]

man, i need this dumbed down into "talk to me like I'm in kindergarten" lol's Way over my head, but I'm trying to absorb and figure it out

You and me both! Haha

I’m super interested as well. Personally, Ive come to believe that the microbiome is the most important element to a healthy reef aquarium.

 

[Susan Edwards]

You and me both! Haha

I’m super interested as well. Personally, Ive come to believe that the microbiome is the most important element to a healthy reef aquarium.

If anyone has the time or inclination, I bet some of us not as familiar or into the science/biology/chemistry would love at least the basics in very basic layman terms/explanation. I'm pretty intelligent but not in this area! I have to go look up a lot of these terms just to know what is what lol's

 

[sixty_reefer]

If anyone has the time or inclination, I bet some of us not as familiar or into the science/biology/chemistry would love at least the basics in very basic layman terms/explanation. I'm pretty intelligent but not in this area! I have to go look up a lot of these terms just to know what is what lol's

A very simple way to understand the subject is by looking at our diet (we are also heterotrophic).
Plants will assimilate carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus from the soil and atmosphere, as we eat those plants we will assimilate the nutrients that we need for mass and energy and the rest will be release back into nature, (water treatment stations) microbes then will decompose those nutrients and make them available again to plants and other bacteria.

in our aquariums the same will be happening, we feed our fish that are heterotrophic and they will assimilate the nutrients they need for mass and energy what they can’t utilise it will get released into the water column in form of fish waste, then heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria will break it down in different forms that will be utilised by algaes and bacteria.

the main difference between us and bacteria is that we can assimilate all 3 nutrients wend we eat one vegetable for example. the heterotrophic bacteria will have to assimilate all the 3 nutrients from the water column separately and if one of the three nutrients is absent they can’t build mass creating a nutrition deficiency in a similar way that we would develop a nutritional deficiency if the plant that we were eating was to not be balanced.

 

[ReefGeezer]

man, i need this dumbed down into "talk to me like I'm in kindergarten" lol's Way over my head, but I'm trying to absorb and figure it out

Me too... I'm asking dumb questions in search of better understanding.

 

[Susan Edwards]

A very simple way to understand the subject is by looking at our diet (we are also heterotrophic).
Plants will assimilate carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus from the soil and atmosphere, as we eat those plants we will assimilate the nutrients that we need for mass and energy and the rest will be release back into nature, (water treatment stations) microbes then will decompose those nutrients and make them available again to plants and other bacteria.

in our aquariums the same will be happening, we feed our fish that are heterotrophic and they will assimilate the nutrients they need for mass and energy what they can’t utilise it will get released into the water column in form of fish waste, then heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria will break it down in different forms that will be utilised by algaes and bacteria.

the main difference between us and bacteria is that we can assimilate all 3 nutrients wend we eat one vegetable for example. the heterotrophic bacteria will have to assimilate all the 3 nutrients from the water column separately and if one of the three nutrients is absent they can’t build mass creating a nutrition deficiency in a similar way that we would develop a nutritional deficiency if the plant that we were eating was to not be balanced.

thank you!

 

[ReefGeezer]

Hey... I have another dumb question. Do the heterotrophic bacteria uptake free carbon, nitrogen, and phosphate separately or is the carbon, N, & P contained in DOC that the bacteria then uptake... or am I just so far off that it really is a dumb question?

 

[Lavey29]

I have been dosing PNS probio which is a natural heterotrophic type bacteria supplement for 5 months now. It has greatly helped my tank breaking down organic waste. My filter socks stay clean over a week. Water is crystal clear. Virtually no algae anywhere. Nicely stabil nitrates at 10. I dose it twice a week and think it is one of the best things I've done for my tank.