Lets talk stability

MnFish1

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So - Quick story - I have had the same corals, fish, etc - for months - with good growth, etc. Apex rock steady All good. No problems. I switched my alkalinty replacement solution from Sodium bicarbonate - to sodium carbonate. I cut the dose of Ca and Bicarb in 1/2 - and tested frequently. I had a colony (the main green/brown one) - which was about 7 inches - which had left small pieces (of the same colony growing throughout the tank). about a week after I made this change - I noticed white patches on this coral (on all of the examples of this coral) in the tank. Note none of the other corals were affected - LPS, SPS, etc. But - white patches on this colony. I tested my alkalinity - and it had gone from its baseline of 7 to 12 (I don't know if this is because the coral overall stopped using as much - or if it was because of the change in bicarb). In any case. I realized that I also changed the H2O2 in my oxydator - as well as my chemipure (I did all the maintenance) - So - I wanted to start this thread - to make a little discussion - and as well to make a couple suggestions:

1. When doing maintenance - don't make too many changes 'at the same time'
2. Be careful when changing salts, varieties of trace elements, dosing, etc. ( I notice a lot of people wanting to change for Triton to Aquaforest - for cost reasons - while still using other triton products)
3. Be patient - because most of the damaged coral seems to be coming back.
4. Rather than any one 'number' - stability to me seems to be the key. If your parameters temp, salinity, alkalinity, etc etc have been rock steady - and they change suddenly - some corals - might not tolerate this as well as others.
 

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I would agree with almost everything stated. Stability over number chasing and patience over reacting constantly and go slow.

My only caveat would be defining stability for temperature as consistent range and not shooting for 0 degree change. My tank has a range of 1-2 degrees (1 high peaks during day and 1 low during night) mimicking the natural environment much as possible. This also vastly reduces heater cycling (mine cycles once per day on a controller). I do it mainly to reduce cycling times and increase equipment lifespan, plus I like copying the natural cycles as I think some normal and stable stress increases health. Although my growth rate is likely lower (which is fine by me).

I have seen articles on studies suggesting that corals exposed to temp change are more resistant to higher temps but not going to crank my tank up to 85F to find out. :)
 
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MnFish1

MnFish1

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I would agree with almost everything stated. Stability over number chasing and patience over reacting constantly and go slow.

My only caveat would be defining stability for temperature as consistent range and not shooting for 0 degree change. My tank has a range of 1-2 degrees (1 high peaks during day and 1 low during night) mimicking the natural environment much as possible. This also vastly reduces heater cycling (mine cycles once per day on a controller). I do it mainly to reduce cycling times and increase equipment lifespan, plus I like copying the natural cycles as I think some normal and stable stress increases health. Although my growth rate is likely lower (which is fine by me).

I have seen articles on studies suggesting that corals exposed to temp change are more resistant to higher temps but not going to crank my tank up to 85F to find out. :)
Yes - I do this as well - I think its 77.5-78.5
 

Nano sapiens

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Stability allows us to keep the widest range of coral/false coral successfully. Understandably, certain types of coral are less affected by instability than others related to if they occur in a particular reef zone only (inflexible, adapted to specific conditions) or occur in different reef zones and possibly other associated environments (flexible, can adapt to various conditions).

Case in point, I recently had a 1-2 punch of high Alk (12.5 dKh) and high Mg (1775 ppm), both due to faulty test kits. How did this effect the coral? Zoas, mushies...no visible issues other than a severe slow down of asexual reproduction. Pavona, a Jack'o'lantern Leptoseris and a Leptastrea...no problems and continued normal growth rates. Seriatopora, Montipora and one other type of Leptoseris...not happy campers, to say the least, with tissue loss and either loss or alteration of pigmentation and no growth. With Alk corrected to 9 dKh and Mg slowly dropping (now at ~1450 ppm), recovery is underway.
 
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MnFish1

MnFish1

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Stability allows us to keep the widest range of coral/false coral successfully. Understandably, certain types of coral are less affected by instability than others related to if they occur in a particular reef zone only (inflexible, adapted to specific conditions) or occur in different reef zones and possibly other associated environments (flexible, can adapt to various conditions).

Case in point, I recently had a 1-2 punch of high Alk (12.5 dKh) and high Mg (1775 ppm), both due to faulty test kits. How did this effect the coral? Zoas, mushies...no visible issues other than a severe slow down of asexual reproduction. Pavona, a Jack'o'lantern Leptoseris and a Leptastrea...no problems and continued normal growth rates. Seriatopora, Montipora and one other type of Leptoseris...not happy campers, to say the least, with tissue loss and either loss or alteration of pigmentation and no growth. With Alk corrected to 9 dKh and Mg slowly dropping (now at ~1450 ppm), recovery is underway.
Exactly
 
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MnFish1

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I would agree with almost everything stated. Stability over number chasing and patience over reacting constantly and go slow.

My only caveat would be defining stability for temperature as consistent range and not shooting for 0 degree change. My tank has a range of 1-2 degrees (1 high peaks during day and 1 low during night) mimicking the natural environment much as possible. This also vastly reduces heater cycling (mine cycles once per day on a controller). I do it mainly to reduce cycling times and increase equipment lifespan, plus I like copying the natural cycles as I think some normal and stable stress increases health. Although my growth rate is likely lower (which is fine by me).

I have seen articles on studies suggesting that corals exposed to temp change are more resistant to higher temps but not going to crank my tank up to 85F to find out. :)
Curious - what part do you not agree with - just the temp thing?
 

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Curious - what part do you not agree with - just the temp thing?
Yes, just the temp clarification. Salinity, Alk, Ca, Mg should be rock solid as possible, nutrient levels and removal, salt mix, equipment, reactors, media, need to managed with stability in mind and gradual changes are the rule.

pH and ORP - just enjoy the ride, baby!
 

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I have also noted negative reactions from changing oxydator solution if mix is too strong- I use diluted 35% but now keep oxydator in sump rather than DT and now I don’t see much negative reactions when solution is changed . I used to see brain and poccilora retract before Fwiw.
 

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I know this isn’t exactly a parameter but In regards to carbon use. The instructions say to change monthly, with the dosage based on tank size and livestock density. I’ve been wondering if it would be better to use half the recommended dosage but change every two weeks.

My reasoning is that if I’m changing only monthly it gives more time for the carbon to expire and the water to build more yellowing compounds. But if I were to change the carbon out more frequently than the water should be more stable in regards to clarity (and therefore PAR). And also more stable in regards to anything else the carbon removes. I want to avoid potentially “shocking “ the system by waiting a month between carbon changes.

Does this make sense or not?
 

blasterman

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Agree and disagree.

I've found alk swings to not bother corals provided they are within a consistent range and short term. Its when corals get acclimated to a certain range, and then your alk rises a lot or dives for an extended period that burns you.

Alk and temp varies quite a bit on a reef , especially in shallow water. It rains, it storms, tides shift and you get upwellings, etc. But it all shifts back to the base average within a day or two.

Focusing on consistency is fine. Focusing so myopically you miss other things is not. We get a jillion posts where the OP spends stupid amounts of money on controllers and digital test kits and only grows algae while they quote precision levels of calcium not obtainable outside a laboratory.
 
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MnFish1

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I have also noted negative reactions from changing oxydator solution if mix is too strong- I use diluted 35% but now keep oxydator in sump rather than DT and now I don’t see much negative reactions when solution is changed . I used to see brain and poccilora retract before Fwiw.
I agree - I use 12 percent - and I also keep the oxydator in the sump - but I still noted a slight problem when it was first changed (for a day)
 
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MnFish1

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I know this isn’t exactly a parameter but In regards to carbon use. The instructions say to change monthly, with the dosage based on tank size and livestock density. I’ve been wondering if it would be better to use half the recommended dosage but change every two weeks.

My reasoning is that if I’m changing only monthly it gives more time for the carbon to expire and the water to build more yellowing compounds. But if I were to change the carbon out more frequently than the water should be more stable in regards to clarity (and therefore PAR). And also more stable in regards to anything else the carbon removes. I want to avoid potentially “shocking “ the system by waiting a month between carbon changes.

Does this make sense or not?
Yes - for example - as yellow (Gelbstoff) builds up in the water - the light reaching corals, etc - drops. When you put in new carbon this can clear the water and actually dramatically increase light intensity. The same thing can happen if you change a lot of water - lets say 50 percent - the intensity of light can be quite a bit brighter just from this. The carbon I use recommends changing every 3 months - what I do is I have 2 bags (chemipure blue) - I change each one alternating every 2 months. So - there is usually no change. Likewise - I believe that 'Gelbstoff' tends to accumulate more - with more detritus/dead organics. So - I tend to clean at least a fair bit of this on an every 2 month basis.
 
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MnFish1

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Agree and disagree.

I've found alk swings to not bother corals provided they are within a consistent range and short term. Its when corals get acclimated to a certain range, and then your alk rises a lot or dives for an extended period that burns you.

Alk and temp varies quite a bit on a reef , especially in shallow water. It rains, it storms, tides shift and you get upwellings, etc. But it all shifts back to the base average within a day or two.

Focusing on consistency is fine. Focusing so myopically you miss other things is not. We get a jillion posts where the OP spends stupid amounts of money on controllers and digital test kits and only grows algae while they quote precision levels of calcium not obtainable outside a laboratory.
I agree - that was kind of the point of the post - In my tank - I've gotten rid of most 'automation' - except a heater backup. I stopped adding any trace elements (except fish food) - which the corals also seem to 'eat' - and if the alkalinity starts creeping up or down (I test once/week) - I just turn down the dosing and recheck in a week. I have never done an ICP test - becasue I see results that are all over the place. I do not test nitrate or Po4 unless my corals look 'different' - and before I do that I do a water change (I usually do 40 percent every month). Its what works for me.
 

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Agree and disagree.

I've found alk swings to not bother corals provided they are within a consistent range and short term. Its when corals get acclimated to a certain range, and then your alk rises a lot or dives for an extended period that burns you.

Alk and temp varies quite a bit on a reef , especially in shallow water. It rains, it storms, tides shift and you get upwellings, etc. But it all shifts back to the base average within a day or two.

Focusing on consistency is fine. Focusing so myopically you miss other things is not. We get a jillion posts where the OP spends stupid amounts of money on controllers and digital test kits and only grows algae while they quote precision levels of calcium not obtainable outside a laboratory.
My alk sits around 8.5 most of the time but can get down to 7 or recently as high as 9 (7-9 in the last 48 hours) but I see no reaction to my corals, I fact I was looking at them when I got home from work and they look the best ever. I only have LPS (Euphyllia) and some softies mind you. I believe stability is important but there’s more to it. My N03 and P04 has been undetectable (Red Sea tests) for over 9 months with no seen negative impact too. I’ve just started feeding my corals (Red Sea AB+) because I feel it’s better for them but they seemed fine anyway.
 

Jase4224

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Yes - for example - as yellow (Gelbstoff) builds up in the water - the light reaching corals, etc - drops. When you put in new carbon this can clear the water and actually dramatically increase light intensity. The same thing can happen if you change a lot of water - lets say 50 percent - the intensity of light can be quite a bit brighter just from this. The carbon I use recommends changing every 3 months - what I do is I have 2 bags (chemipure blue) - I change each one alternating every 2 months. So - there is usually no change. Likewise - I believe that 'Gelbstoff' tends to accumulate more - with more detritus/dead organics. So - I tend to clean at least a fair bit of this on an every 2 month basis.
Thanks for that info, I ‘felt’ like I was on the right track but you give a better description. After my current carbon is used up I’m going to halve it and change twice as often. I change about 20% monthly but vac my sand bed, vac my sump and recently started blowing off my rocks so my detritus build up is minimal.

Chemipure is great stuff, I used it on a previous smaller tank and believe in the product but it would be too expensive for me now I have a large tank.

Gelbstoff.. never heard of it so thanks for teaching me something!
 

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I know this isn’t exactly a parameter but In regards to carbon use. The instructions say to change monthly, with the dosage based on tank size and livestock density. I’ve been wondering if it would be better to use half the recommended dosage but change every two weeks.

My reasoning is that if I’m changing only monthly it gives more time for the carbon to expire and the water to build more yellowing compounds. But if I were to change the carbon out more frequently than the water should be more stable in regards to clarity (and therefore PAR). And also more stable in regards to anything else the carbon removes. I want to avoid potentially “shocking “ the system by waiting a month between carbon changes.

Does this make sense or not?

This is an interesting idea. I've also been wondering about the monthly change of carbon as a lot of the literature on carbon says that in most cases it looses its adsorption capacity quite rapidly (it "fills up") and after a couple of weeks it is no longer working as well as we think. So probably for the last week (or two) of the month the carbon is maybe not having anymore positive effect. On the other hand, I've not noticed a visible yellowing of the water at all during the month.

I might give your idea a try just to see!
 

Jase4224

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This is an interesting idea. I've also been wondering about the monthly change of carbon as a lot of the literature on carbon says that in most cases it looses its adsorption capacity quite rapidly (it "fills up") and after a couple of weeks it is no longer working as well as we think. So probably for the last week (or two) of the month the carbon is maybe not having anymore positive effect. On the other hand, I've not noticed a visible yellowing of the water at all during the month.

I might give your idea a try just to see!
I think you are right about carbon only lasting a couple of weeks. Just look at what a skimmer can remove in a single day.. if carbon removes the same stuff as a skimmer than I can imagine the carbon could get used up in a very short period of time.

I think BRS were measuring PAR to determine when to change carbon which is clever.

I run carbon with a very slow water flow through the reactor, more like a trickle. I figured this would thoroughly polish the water going through and perhaps spread out the effective lifespan.
 
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MnFish1

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I think you are right about carbon only lasting a couple of weeks. Just look at what a skimmer can remove in a single day.. if carbon removes the same stuff as a skimmer than I can imagine the carbon could get used up in a very short period of time.

I think BRS were measuring PAR to determine when to change carbon which is clever.

I run carbon with a very slow water flow through the reactor, more like a trickle. I figured this would thoroughly polish the water going through and perhaps spread out the effective lifespan.
I do not think there are many recommendations (I may be wrong) - changing carbon every month. For example - chemipure Blue - recommends changing every 2-4 months (of course it has to be dose to the appropriate level of the tank). Perhaps 'cheaper' versions need to be changed more often - but those are often not recommended due to HLLE anyway? Unless I'm mistaken.

BTW - the reason I'm saying this - is that normally carbon would not be placed in an area where there is a huge amount of larger 'debris'.
 

Jase4224

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You are right about HLLE there is an article around here somewhere that proved experimentally the cheap ‘lignite’ carbon particles can cause HLLE. Rinsing any carbon of tiny particles is important.

I believe chemi pure elite does last around 3 months or so from prior experience so not sure how that works but seems to be right. I base this on its ability to keep algae at bay, when I would get algae I changed the chemi pure and algae would go away and sure enough this lined up with the instructions.

I’ve switched over to Quantum Reef Essential Bio-Active carbon (what a mouth full) from Rowa carbon. The instructions on the Quantum Reef say to change monthly. The rowa carbon instructions are quite different..
06A31856-5316-4D26-B5D7-24CF4F1CB060.jpeg
so I guess it depends on what you are trying to remove! All this would have to depend on flow through the carbon which I see no recommendations for.

Perhaps monthly if fine, unless removing the yellow compounds is your goal than more often may be better.
 
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