Live ocean rock, or not

[Tonycass12]

Yes. Having two aquariums that started independently, one with Tampa Bay Live and one with dead rock, both had issues with pests however different pests. Live rock had crabs, deadly worms and mantis shrimp, a stone crab destroyed a $440 scoly coral before I caught her. Dead rock tank got aptasia, vermatids and pumpkin flat worms. The flat worms are proving to be the most difficult however proper qt could have prevented their introduction. Interestingly, I had more of a problem with nuisance algae including dinos in the live rock tank.

I will reaffirm, “it’s not the arrow, it’s the Indian”….an experience, knowledgeable hobbyist can be successful with either approach.

I hear ya, ive still had gorilla crabs make it through dips on mariculted corals and ive dealt with grey/black bugs in my tanks as well. All of my pests came in via the corals, not to say that you cant introduce them via rock but i do think its easier to trap and catch them in a new system than a mature one that they are introduced to. For me doing 3x dose of interceptor wiped out all the bugs and any troublesome crabs that may have still been hiding out. Sadly it also killed my acro crabs i had hosting in a few colonies. It all comes down to how you handle those situations, ive seen reefers throw in the towel over acro bugs before rather than try to treat the system. Only a few dips I know of out there that are near full proof but even then they still won't always get everything if it's hiding in a shell or buried deep in the coral.

 

[Mac8128]

Just a quick note, I recently came back into the hobby and started (on day 19 today) a 13.5g nano tank. I used 10# of Ocean Direct live sand, a 5# Marco rock along with 8# TBS live rock and 4# TBS live sand. I measured very low ammonia for the first two days or so and then 0 ammonia, and 0 nitrite. Nitrate is running around 12 now. Over the first few days I identified the following hitchhikers on the TBS rock/sand. Snails, lancets, brittlestars, tunicates, tube worms, multi-color coralline algae, sponges, a clam and a feather duster. I have dosed Tigerpods and Phyto-Feast. My water is crystal clear, everything seems to be doing well. A few days ago I added a Peppermint Shrimp and two Astrea snails. The snails are all over the tank/rocks and the shrimp comes out to say hello every night. Feeding the shrimp every other night, 2 tiny sinking pellets and am seeing no ammonia whatsoever.

I have also added a very small refugium in the back chamber. Between the pods that showed up on the rock/sand and the Tigerpods, I see dozens of pods every time I look into the refugium. I'm thinking that if I see dozens, then there are a ton swimming in the Chaeto and the rockwork.

I realize it's early but no indication of any of the "Ugglies". I am setting up a QT tank this weekend and will soon purchase my first fish, a Neon Blue Goby. Bottom line, I can't prove anything, but I am amazed at how well this build is doing compared to the four or five that I have done in the past. I will never build out another tank without using Tampa Bay Saltwater live rock and live sand.

 

[Sam7]

"Live ocean rock, or not".....hmm, it would seem they both work except ones a little easier. Okay thanks i think get it now ​

 

[Mac8128]

I should also add that I did find two or three whelks that I picked off the live rock before the rock went onto the tank. But to date I have seen no indication of troublesome crabs and having a few sleepless nights, I have gone to look at the tank at 2 or 3 in the morning with a red light. I see pods, the Peppermint Shrimp and some Brittlestars but, thankfully no other unwanted critters.

 

[Mac8128]

"Live ocean rock, or not".....hmm, it would seem they both work except ones a little easier. Okay thanks i think get it now ​

Yea, I'm sure, I'm just hoping that I am doing everything possible to minimize them!

 

[Sam7]

Yea, I'm sure, I'm just hoping that I am doing everything possible to minimize them!

does not compute.....my post was about what this thread is about....it was the header of the thread.....i was asking the question and answering it

 

[Sam7]

i need a delete key

 

[Mac8128]

does not compute.....my post was about what this thread is about....it was the header of the thread.....i was asking the question and answering it

Sorry, I read your tag line "When your tank is young the uglies will come" and answered that.

 

[dferrant]

I never used any profanity and nothing I have posted has been removed or censored at least so far….

I read your experiment. It is not a bad experiment, but let’s call what it is. It is a basic, rudimentary, qualitative experiment that is at the middle school or high school level from a science perspective. Nothing wrong with that especially if you want to go through the exercise and spend the time and money. Just don’t try and inflate the rigor or complexity of what you are doing by stating you are running something like cytology, which you are not. Actually running cytology is dependent upon access to multimillion dollar equipment and facilities and specialized training. You are doing an exercise similar to what will be done in 6th to 8th grade middle school biology, which is absolutely fine if you wish to do so, and find an interesting as part of your hobby. My point is that people that have been doing this for 20 years know a thing or two more than people that are new. for example, BRS, before being acquired by aperature holdings, performed a lot of qualitative little side by side experiments very similar to this. Since a lot of us here have been in the hobby circles for an extensive period of time, we are aware of these experiments and the videos on YouTube, so we can point you to them in the right direction to save you both time and money and effort. A lot of of what you were talking about has been done already.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I never used any profanity and nothing I have posted has been removed or censored at least so far….

I read your experiment. It is not a bad experiment, but let’s call what it is. It is a basic, rudimentary, qualitative experiment that is at the middle school or high school level from a science perspective. Nothing wrong with that especially if you want to go through the exercise and spend the time and money. Just don’t try and inflate the rigor or complexity of what you are doing by stating you are running something like cytology, which you are not. Actually running cytology is dependent upon access to multimillion dollar equipment and facilities and specialized training. You are doing an exercise similar to what will be done in 6th to 8th grade middle school biology, which is absolutely fine if you wish to do so, and find an interesting as part of your hobby. My point is that people that have been doing this for 20 years know a thing or two more than people that are new. for example, BRS, before being acquired by aperature holdings, performed a lot of qualitative little side by side experiments very similar to this. Since a lot of us here have been in the hobby circles for an extensive period of time, we are aware of these experiments and the videos on YouTube, so we can point you to them in the right direction to save you both time and money and effort. A lot of of what you were talking about has been done already.

Did you respond to the wrong post?

 

[dferrant]

it got removed for profanity even though it was starred out , someone reported it , threads comical, dont worry you can be actually useful by showing me nuances i can answer before the experiments underway, https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/this-isn’t-an-anti-live-rock-post-it’s-a-question-of-whether-wild-extraction-still-serves-a-functional-purpose-in-2025-given-what-we-can-now-culture.1141981/

I never used any profanity and nothing I have posted has been removed or censored at least so far….

I read your experiment. It is not a bad experiment, but let’s call what it is. It is a basic, rudimentary, qualitative experiment that is at the middle school or high school level from a science perspective. Nothing wrong with that especially if you want to go through the exercise and spend the time and money. Just don’t try and inflate the rigor or complexity of what you are doing by stating you are running something like cytology, which you are not. Actually running cytology is dependent upon access to multimillion dollar equipment and facilities and specialized training. You are doing an exercise similar to what will be done in 6th to 8th grade middle school biology, which is absolutely fine if you wish to do so, and find an interesting as part of your hobby. My point is that people that have been doing this for 20 years know a thing or two more than people that are new. for example, BRS, before being acquired by aperature holdings, performed a lot of qualitative little side by side experiments very similar to this. Since a lot of us here have been in the hobby circles for an extensive period of time, we are aware of these experiments and the videos on YouTube, so we can point you to them in the right direction to save you both time and money and effort. A lot of of what you were talking about has been done already.

Quote Reply

 

[BoaConservationist]

I never used any profanity and nothing I have posted has been removed or censored at least so far….

I read your experiment. It is not a bad experiment, but let’s call what it is. It is a basic, rudimentary, qualitative experiment that is at the middle school or high school level from a science perspective. Nothing wrong with that especially if you want to go through the exercise and spend the time and money. Just don’t try and inflate the rigor or complexity of what you are doing by stating you are running something like cytology, which you are not. Actually running cytology is dependent upon access to multimillion dollar equipment and facilities and specialized training. You are doing an exercise similar to what will be done in 6th to 8th grade middle school biology, which is absolutely fine if you wish to do so, and find an interesting as part of your hobby. My point is that people that have been doing this for 20 years know a thing or two more than people that are new. for example, BRS, before being acquired by aperature holdings, performed a lot of qualitative little side by side experiments very similar to this. Since a lot of us here have been in the hobby circles for an extensive period of time, we are aware of these experiments and the videos on YouTube, so we can point you to them in the right direction to save you both time and money and effort. A lot of of what you were talking about has been done already.

Quote Reply

I work in a pet hospital where i have access to every tool you could ever desire, including pcr machines, an entire idexx lab. (they call me dracula) (i will be paying for reagents / w.e.) -- we can even test some cool fringe stuff like laser therapy down the line :)

so

also, its never been done how im about to do it - they do have good videos on stuff like rox carbon but the other videos often skew to a more narrative approach. This is largely because back then they were selling live rock, but stopped, wonder why that was :)

 

[dferrant]

I work in a pet hospital where i have access to every tool you could ever desire, including pcr machines, an entire idexx lab. (they call me dracula) (i will be paying for reagents / w.e.) -- we can even test some cool fringe stuff like laser therapy down the line :)

so

also, its never been done how im about to do it - they do have good videos on stuff like rox carbon but the other videos often skew to a more narrative approach. This is largely because back then they were selling live rock, but stopped, wonder why that was :

You’re probably a good guy and I love pets and generally love people that work in pet hospitals and I am very grateful for them. I am just taking a firm stand on principle against inflating knowledge and credentials in an anonymous online setting. Hopefully you are aware this equipment if being used in a clinical capacity, such as a pet hospital, is almost undoubtedly under good laboratory practices (gxp) and probably regulated by some kind of health and safety agency. So just be careful. In my case, it would be the FDA, and I work strictly in a research, pre-clinical capacity, and even then I would imagine major red flags would go up if I were to attempt to use this type of expensive and sensitive equipment in facilities for an extraneous, personal and unauthorized or non - project related reason.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Starting with dry rock doesn’t mean a “sterile” or unsafe tank anymore — it just means you control what biology goes in. Live rock used to be the only way to import nitrifying bacteria and coralline, but today those can be added intentionally via bottled cultures (Prodibio BioDigest/Nitrosomonas, ARC Reef Coralline, pods, etc.), without importing aiptasia, bryopsis, vermetids, crabs, or other long-term pests. It’s also the more sustainable option and gives you predictable outcomes and better aquascaping freedom.


There’s also an important distinction between an instant biological cycle and immediate livestock safety. Products like Prodibio Stop Ammo don’t magically complete the cycle, but they bind toxic ammonia into a non-toxic, bioavailable form --convert to aminos etc--, protecting fish and inverts while bacteria colonize the rock and surfaces. Paired with a proper nitrifier, the tank is functionally safe from day one, even though the microbial population is still maturing. No shortcuts to biology — just a cleaner, more controlled way to get there.

This is an AI generated answer, most of it only loosely relevant or correct.

 

[BoaConservationist]

This is an AI generated answer, most of it only loosely relevant or correct.

theres nothing incorrect about anything stated and its me, but you can be mad about it, its all accurate, whats wrong?

definitely some weirdos on this forum, trying anything to attack my character for putting out logical information. I get it, nobody wants to be the idiot, you may have spent thousands of dollars on some scalped rocks, who knows, you may have personal interests in the companies involved, IDK, the answer is the truth though.

 

[BeanAnimal]

True nitrifying bacteria first became commercially available for home aquariums in the early 2000s, with products like Marineland Bio-Spira (2002–2003).

Why it matters:
Before that, bottled products didn’t contain real nitrifiers, so live rock was the only reliable way to cycle a tank. Modern bottled nitrifiers do establish the nitrogen cycle, which is why dry rock + bacteria is now a proven, controlled, and pest-free way to start a reef.

Ill get you some tank pics later, merry christmas, you 100% dont need live rock, and are likely better off without.

Usually now that we solved the bacteria problem, the number of people importing rock anyway is very very very low, and its usually imported in batches when either an aquarium or a rich/wealthy person buys it, and the source isnt always ethical, the rest go publicly on the market.

This is also AI generated nonsense.

We cycled tanks by adding a nitrogen source, typically a dead shrimp from the grocery store, or a few pinches of flake food for a few days. Sometimes a cup of sand from the LFS or a friend, or unfortunately a sacrificial damsel or two.

Also, pretty sure those dates for bio-spira are hallucinated by the AI.

Nitrifying bacteria are everywhere, they don’t need to be poured out of a bottle or delivered on live rock, that just makes things easier.

theres nothing incorrect about anything stated and its me, but you can be mad about it, its all accurate, whats wrong?

What is wrong? To start, AI is not welcome here.

But more importantly, you are posting AI generated nonsense as authoritative answers and presenting yourself as the expert providing the information.

Correcting the AI generated noise:
Dry rock does not give control over which microbes establish long term. It only controls what is excluded on day one.

Bottled products provide a narrow set of bacteria, often riddled with pathogens and heterotrophs on no nitrifiers at all. On the other hand live rock provides established biofilms and diverse nutrient pathways.

Demonstrating nitrification does not equate to biological maturity, even if your AI answer thinks it does.

Coralline spores and pods come on coral, with fish, or anything else imported from marine tank or the ocean, not just “live rock”. The coralline spores can even come in or on dry goods or food from the LFS. The AI isn’t old enough to know, so we can forgive it.

Most live rock today is aquacultured. Calling dry rock inherently more sustainable is AI filling in the blanks based on your biased prompt.

Show me evidence of where Stop Ammo (or Prime) binds ammonia, converts it to aminos, or makes it “bioavailable but non-toxic.” This is pure marketing, blindly regurgitated by AI.

Absolute claims about day one safety are misleading at best. Safety comes from dilution or nitrification, meaning ammonia and pH should be tested for to determine levels. Ironically, you are far more likely to have “no cycle” or deadly ammonia spike if you use live rock instead of dry rock and bottled bacteria.

So to add to what is wrong: you claim nothing incorrect was posted, meaning you don’t know yourself and instead just copy pasted AI.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

prime works quite well for detoxification of chlorine/chloramine. 15+ years of using it tells me so.

 

[BeanAnimal]

prime works quite well for detoxification of chlorine/chloramine. 15+ years of using it tells me so.

Yes, it does do that!

What it doesn’t do is “detoxify”, “bind” or render ammonia somehow “safe”.

 

[BoaConservationist]

This is also AI generated nonsense.

We cycled tanks by adding a nitrogen source, typically a dead shrimp from the grocery store, or a few pinches of flake food for a few days. Sometimes a cup of sand from the LFS or a friend, or unfortunately a sacrificial damsel or two.

Also, pretty sure those dates for bio-spira are hallucinated by the AI.

Nitrifying bacteria are everywhere, they don’t need to be poured out of a bottle or delivered on live rock, that just makes things easier.



What is wrong? To start, AI is not welcome here.

But more importantly, you are posting AI generated nonsense as authoritative answers and presenting yourself as the expert providing the information.

Correcting the AI generated noise:
Dry rock does not give control over which microbes establish long term. It only controls what is excluded on day one.

Bottled products provide a narrow set of bacteria, often riddled with pathogens and heterotrophs on no nitrifiers at all. On the other hand live rock provides established biofilms and diverse nutrient pathways.

Demonstrating nitrification does not equate to biological maturity, even if your AI answer thinks it does.

Coralline spores and pods come on coral, with fish, or anything else imported from marine tank or the ocean, not just “live rock”. The coralline spores can even come in or on dry goods or food from the LFS. The AI isn’t old enough to know, so we can forgive it.

Most live rock today is aquacultured. Calling dry rock inherently more sustainable is AI filling in the blanks based on your biased prompt.

Show me evidence of where Stop Ammo (or Prime) binds ammonia, converts it to aminos, or makes it “bioavailable but non-toxic.” This is pure marketing, blindly regurgitated by AI.

Absolute claims about day one safety are misleading at best. Safety comes from dilution or nitrification, meaning ammonia and pH should be tested for to determine levels. Ironically, you are far more likely to have “no cycle” or deadly ammonia spike if you use live rock instead of dry rock and bottled bacteria.

So to add to what is wrong: you claim nothing incorrect was posted, meaning you don’t know yourself and instead just copy pasted AI.

nothings hallucinated babes.

keep trying, clearly involved rock seller either alias or not idk but, you seem hurt

 

[BoaConservationist]

Yes, it does do that!

What it doesn’t do is “detoxify”, “bind” or render ammonia somehow “safe”.

no, prodibio does that, bozo , you can tell you have nothing going on because the amount of useless rebuttal you are foaming off about is insane

lets play a game, what was this found in/on https://bacdive.dsmz.de/strain/23453