Live ocean rock, or not

[BoaConservationist]

Heres a DNA sequencing on Prodibio Biodigest (the glass ampoules). It isn’t a bottle of “instant nitrifiers.” It’s mostly fast-growing heterotrophic bacteria (Pseudomonas, Bacillus, Achromobacter), plus denitrifiers (Rhodobacter, Zobellia) and some anaerobic/facultative organisms that normally live deeper in rock and sand.


On a reef, these organisms don’t replace nitrification. Their role is to consume dissolved organics, compete with nuisance microbes, temporarily bind nitrogen into biomass, and help establish microbial layers that later allow true nitrifiers and denitrifiers to settle in. That’s why people see tanks stabilize quickly without the biology actually being “complete.”


The ampoule format makes sense because these bacteria aren’t meant to multiply in the bottle — they’re preserved until use, then released to shape early microbial succession. A lot of what hobbyists credit live rock for early on is actually these same functional groups, not ammonia-oxidizing bacteria specifically.


So again, this isn’t an anti-live-rock take (unless you just like buying overpriced rocks or rocks with bugs on them). It’s just pointing out that the functional roles live rock used to provide can now be introduced deliberately and with a lot more control.

AS a side note, alot of other bottles are really not looking great, everything from human feces to strep and more... and we havent even got through our rigorous testing.

 

[djenks]

question for anyone who has tried. Living in south florida with access to a fishing boat. I may build an aqua scape from Marco rock or similar man made Dry-rock, put into a crate or crab trap then drop next to some structure offshore. retrieve a few weeks or months later to increase the natural biodiversity. Would this be worth while or would it still not be biodiverse enough to possibly skip the ugly phase of a new tank setup.

 

[BoaConservationist]

question for anyone who has tried. Living in south florida with access to a fishing boat. I may build an aqua scape from Marco rock or similar man made rock, put into a crate or crab trap then drop next to some structure offshore. retrieve a few weeks or months later to increase the natural biodiversity. Would this be worth while or would it still not be biodiverse enough for a new tank?

totally viable option honestly, the worst of this is you're going to definitely get random stuff and hopefully nothing decides to forge up home in it and start laying eggs as that will have an impact on the microclimate... best to just leave the wild stuff alone, we are so far ahead in science theres legitimately no need for this cooking rocks in saltwater madness that I see all too often, right tool, right job. Its really unfair to the consumer the amount of fluff in the marketing here (the realm that is bacteria), and the fact that some of these cultures are downright legitimately dangerous.

 

[Subsea]

question for anyone who has tried. Living in south florida with access to a fishing boat. I may build an aqua scape from Marco rock or similar man made Dry-rock, put into a crate or crab trap then drop next to some structure offshore. retrieve a few weeks or months later to increase the natural biodiversity. Would this be worth while or would it still not be biodiverse enough to possibly skip the ugly phase of a new tank setup.

The city/state of Monaco established a world class display using 20KG per day of water from the Mediterranean Sea into 120KG of display volume.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanographic_Museum_of_Monaco
https://reefs.com/magazine/jaubert-s-method-the-monaco-system-defined-and-refined/

Jaubert’s Method, The ‘Monaco System,’ Defined And Refined​

by Advanced Aquarist | Sep 15, 2002 | 1 comment
“Several methods or “disciplines” exist regarding the proper way to establish a living reef aquarium. While early developments feature the use of technology to purify the water with an assortment of external filter devices and fancy gadgets, other “natural” approaches rely mostly on biological filtration occurring within the aquarium. Natural systems of many kinds have been gaining in popularity over the last decade. As a result, the reef aquarium hobby has grown internationally, with systems that are successful, affordable and manageable for the average aquarist. Delbeek and Sprung (1994) gives a detailed account of the history and features of many of these systems. In this article I focus on one of them, the simple method developed by Professor Jean Jaubert for establishing a reef aquarium.”

Part 1: The “Monaco System,” Defined And Refined​

“Would this be worth while or would it still not be biodiverse enough to possibly skip the ugly phase of a new tank setup?”

A memember of r2r who lives in Corpus Christie, does precisely that. However, not weeks. I would suggest 6-12 months.

My first marine tank in September 1971 was a Galveston Bay theme with oyster cluster and barnacles a waving. Included in the theme was a Sea Robin that had wings for pectoral fins along with feet for walking about. He was removed as he feed on the live shrimp added to tank. As a fishermen, shrimper and marine hobbiest, I enjoy watching the natural behavior of marine critters.

 

[Clarkjw2002]

Wow, this thing blew up.

Boa, you work in a pet hospital. Before you start wasting your employers resources just know that to prove or dis-prove the theories you espouse you'd need access to tools that can document and quantify biodiversity. I guarantee your vet labs do not have mass/deep sequencing capabilities. Diagnostic tools are limited by their reagents. PCR is great but it's only going to tell you that what you have primers (reagents) for actually exists or doesn't exist in your sample. It will NOT document everything that is in there.

You need to realize that there are a lot of us with PhDs that have spent a career doing peer reviewed research and managing labs that actually did things like mass sequencing and biodiversity documentation so it's easy for us to identify flaws in your logic--like conflating the nitrogen cycle with the benefits of biodiversity. There are also a lot of folks with a lifetime of technical experience that bring a lot to the table.

Oh, and FYI, even though the triple drain overflow is called the "beananimal", he never received a penny for the design--other hobbyists copied his idea and then named it that out of deference. It was never a commercial product. Not sure about the Herbie though (that already existed when I started the hobby in the 90s).

Hey SubSea, off-topic--what kind of flow rate do you run through your reverse under gravel filter? I need to start pushing flow through my DSB in the coral/refugium tank. Had info from Lasse but can't find. PM might be better but I'll keep searching threads.

 

[Subsea]

@Clarkjw2002
I don’t measure the flow rate thru substrate, however, I limit the hydrostatic head that supplies a constant flow. This was required to aid diffusion & limit channeling thru substrate. I got that idea from @Paul B.

Yes, @Lassie and I have discussed this. I like his due diligence to create marine snow from skimmate and feed his ecosystem that has a zero water change policy. I often copy his quotes. A favorite is a definition of EXPERT by a Danish philosopher:
PS: My bad. I googled it.

“That quote, often attributed to physicist Niels Bohr, means true expertise isn't about perfection but about deep, practical knowledge gained by experiencing and overcoming every possible failure within a specific, narrow field, transforming mistakes into essential learning data for mastery. It highlights that experts know what doesn't work and have navigated pitfalls, making them uniquely equipped to find solutions.”

“Niels Bohr is famous for developing the Bohr model of the atom, which first applied quantum theory to explain electrons orbiting a nucleus in specific energy levels, earning him the 1922 Nobel Prize.He was a pioneer in quantum mechanics, known for the Copenhagen interpretation, the concept of complementarity (wave-particle duality), and his influential work on nuclear fission and the peaceful use of nuclear energy”

“Someone who has made every conceivable error in a specific field of endeavor.”

I retorted with Abraham Lincoln quote:
Expert is someone who goes 50 miles to give their “opinion” and get paid.

Go figure. I think Boa may be an influencer that is paid to stir up discourse.

I understand that clearly. I protect what I love. For the average entry level hobbiest to succeed without the time & effort of a lab technician forcing an experiment, I say go native. You will be glad you did.

 

[BoaConservationist]

Wow, this thing blew up.

Boa, you work in a pet hospital. Before you start wasting your employers resources just know that to prove or dis-prove the theories you espouse you'd need access to tools that can document and quantify biodiversity. I guarantee your vet labs do not have mass/deep sequencing capabilities. Diagnostic tools are limited by their reagents. PCR is great but it's only going to tell you that what you have primers (reagents) for actually exists or doesn't exist in your sample. It will NOT document everything that is in there.

You need to realize that there are a lot of us with PhDs that have spent a career doing peer reviewed research and managing labs that actually did things like mass sequencing and biodiversity documentation so it's easy for us to identify flaws in your logic--like conflating the nitrogen cycle with the benefits of biodiversity. There are also a lot of folks with a lifetime of technical experience that bring a lot to the table.

Oh, and FYI, even though the triple drain overflow is called the "beananimal", he never received a penny for the design--other hobbyists copied his idea and then named it that out of deference. It was never a commercial product. Not sure about the Herbie though (that already existed when I started the hobby in the 90s).

Hey SubSea, off-topic--what kind of flow rate do you run through your reverse under gravel filter? I need to start pushing flow through my DSB in the coral/refugium tank. Had info from Lasse but can't find. PM might be better but I'll keep searching threads.

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that a veterinary diagnostic lab is capable of full metagenomic or deep-shotgun sequencing, and I’m certainly not suggesting that PCR alone can document total biodiversity. That distinction is already well understood. PCR, by design, is targeted and reagent-limited; its value is in confirming presence or absence of specific functional or taxonomic groups, not in exhaustively cataloging a system.


That said, targeted molecular tools are still useful when applied appropriately. You don’t need full biodiversity documentation to evaluate specific hypotheses about microbial function, succession, or persistence. In both medical and environmental microbiology, targeted assays are routinely used to answer narrow but meaningful questions, especially when paired with ecological context and known metabolic roles.


I’d also push back slightly on the idea that discussing biodiversity somehow conflates or replaces the nitrogen cycle. The nitrogen cycle is a subset of microbial ecology, not the whole of it. Nitrification alone does not explain stability, resilience, or competitive exclusion in closed systems. There’s a substantial body of literature—reef systems included—showing that microbial diversity and community structure influence outcomes well beyond ammonia oxidation. Acknowledging that doesn’t diminish classical nitrification; it just recognizes that it isn’t the only biological process occurring.


As for credentials, they’re valuable, but they don’t invalidate discussion or experimentation outside of academic labs. Many advances in reef keeping have historically come from hobbyists applying scientific principles pragmatically, long before they were formally characterized in peer-reviewed literature. Pointing out limitations is fair; dismissing the premise outright because it doesn’t involve mass sequencing is less productive.



At the end of the day, this isn’t about claiming absolute proof or overturning established science. It’s about refining tools, understanding mechanisms, and applying what we can measure to make systems more predictable and species-focused, rather than purely reactive.

 

[billyocean]

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that a veterinary diagnostic lab is capable of full metagenomic or deep-shotgun sequencing, and I’m certainly not suggesting that PCR alone can document total biodiversity. That distinction is already well understood. PCR, by design, is targeted and reagent-limited; its value is in confirming presence or absence of specific functional or taxonomic groups, not in exhaustively cataloging a system.


That said, targeted molecular tools are still useful when applied appropriately. You don’t need full biodiversity documentation to evaluate specific hypotheses about microbial function, succession, or persistence. In both medical and environmental microbiology, targeted assays are routinely used to answer narrow but meaningful questions, especially when paired with ecological context and known metabolic roles.


I’d also push back slightly on the idea that discussing biodiversity somehow conflates or replaces the nitrogen cycle. The nitrogen cycle is a subset of microbial ecology, not the whole of it. Nitrification alone does not explain stability, resilience, or competitive exclusion in closed systems. There’s a substantial body of literature—reef systems included—showing that microbial diversity and community structure influence outcomes well beyond ammonia oxidation. Acknowledging that doesn’t diminish classical nitrification; it just recognizes that it isn’t the only biological process occurring.


As for credentials, they’re valuable, but they don’t invalidate discussion or experimentation outside of academic labs. Many advances in reef keeping have historically come from hobbyists applying scientific principles pragmatically, long before they were formally characterized in peer-reviewed literature. Pointing out limitations is fair; dismissing the premise outright because it doesn’t involve mass sequencing is less productive.



At the end of the day, this isn’t about claiming absolute proof or overturning established science. It’s about refining tools, understanding mechanisms, and applying what we can measure to make systems more predictable and species-focused, rather than purely reactive.

Upgraded from a 125 gallon to a 300 gallon tank in February. 300 was 100% new water and 100% new dry sand (washed). Transfered all of my rock from my 3/4 year old 125 system...added about 15 lbs of ocean rock also. Out of about 175-200 acros i lost one.

Day one and those that followed.

Your tank.

This is my last post in this thread or topic in which this person is involved. Its only to shed light to the reefers seeking and wading through information and to let their eyes do the judging. Theres just no argument in to which is the easier way to start a tank. As with everything in this hobby..find sources you trust and follow proven track records to begin your journey. Deviation is always fine and experimentation encouraged! For those of you overwhelmed by information, choose as wisely as possible your path.
I bid you good luck @BoaConservationist in your journey. I hope to hear about any failures as much as your theoretical success.

 

[BoaConservationist]

Upgraded from a 125 gallon to a 300 gallon tank in February. 300 was 100% new water and 100% new dry sand (washed). Transfered all of my rock from my 3/4 year old 125 system...added about 15 lbs of ocean rock also. Out of about 175-200 acros i lost one.

Day one and those that followed.

Your tank.

This is my last post in this thread or topic in which this person is involved. Its only to shed light to the reefers seeking and wading through information and to let their eyes do the judging. Theres just no argument in to which is the easier way to start a tank. As with everything in this hobby..find sources you trust and follow proven track records to begin your journey. Deviation is always fine and experimentation encouraged! For those of you overwhelmed by information, choose as wisely as possible your path.
I bid you good luck @BoaConservationist in your journey. I hope to hear about any failures as much as your theoretical success.

once again trying to make this about me instead of facts, tell me you work for one of these companies without telling me.

youre gonna be real salty when i go photo some other tanks, will be curious to see your excuse then lol

 

[CHSUB]

question for anyone who has tried. Living in south florida with access to a fishing boat. I may build an aqua scape from Marco rock or similar man made Dry-rock, put into a crate or crab trap then drop next to some structure offshore. retrieve a few weeks or months later to increase the natural biodiversity. Would this be worth while or would it still not be biodiverse enough to possibly skip the ugly phase of a new tank setup.

It is worth it and works well having done it a long time ago, however it is illegal in most locations.

 

[BoaConservationist]

@Clarkjw2002
I don’t measure the flow rate thru substrate, however, I limit the hydrostatic head that supplies a constant flow. This was required to aid diffusion & limit channeling thru substrate. I got that idea from @Paul B.

Yes, @Lassie and I have discussed this. I like his due diligence to create marine snow from skimmate and feed his ecosystem that has a zero water change policy. I often copy his quotes. A favorite is a definition of EXPERT by a Danish philosopher:
PS: My bad. I googled it.

“That quote, often attributed to physicist Niels Bohr, means true expertise isn't about perfection but about deep, practical knowledge gained by experiencing and overcoming every possible failure within a specific, narrow field, transforming mistakes into essential learning data for mastery. It highlights that experts know what doesn't work and have navigated pitfalls, making them uniquely equipped to find solutions.”

“Niels Bohr is famous for developing the Bohr model of the atom, which first applied quantum theory to explain electrons orbiting a nucleus in specific energy levels, earning him the 1922 Nobel Prize.He was a pioneer in quantum mechanics, known for the Copenhagen interpretation, the concept of complementarity (wave-particle duality), and his influential work on nuclear fission and the peaceful use of nuclear energy”

“Someone who has made every conceivable error in a specific field of endeavor.”

I retorted with Abraham Lincoln quote:
Expert is someone who goes 50 miles to give their “opinion” and get paid.

Go figure. I think Boa may be an influencer that is paid to stir up discourse.

I understand that clearly. I protect what I love. For the average entry level hobbiest to succeed without the time & effort of a lab technician forcing an experiment, I say go native. You will be glad you did.

no but i did notice koral kings made a post / videos about a maldives tank after my solomon isles tank post, so thats awesome to see, im all about positive inspiration. Sadly, Niels Bohr didnt have this tech, Im a big fan of Dmitri personally, his story is insane, being dropped off in the mongolian foothills/mtns, crazy, but, do you have any bacterial data to provide or just having a goof?

 

[Subsea]

It is worth it and works well having done it a long time ago, however it is illegal in most locations.

I can’t address Florida Wildlife & Fisheries policy. In Louisiana & Texas, collection of critters is legal with a valid fishing license. This collection does not allow you to sell it.

As long as you don’t create a navigation issue, I don’t see a legal issue with collecting what you put in the water.

 

[rtparty]

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that a veterinary diagnostic lab is capable of full metagenomic or deep-shotgun sequencing, and I’m certainly not suggesting that PCR alone can document total biodiversity. That distinction is already well understood. PCR, by design, is targeted and reagent-limited; its value is in confirming presence or absence of specific functional or taxonomic groups, not in exhaustively cataloging a system.


That said, targeted molecular tools are still useful when applied appropriately. You don’t need full biodiversity documentation to evaluate specific hypotheses about microbial function, succession, or persistence. In both medical and environmental microbiology, targeted assays are routinely used to answer narrow but meaningful questions, especially when paired with ecological context and known metabolic roles.


I’d also push back slightly on the idea that discussing biodiversity somehow conflates or replaces the nitrogen cycle. The nitrogen cycle is a subset of microbial ecology, not the whole of it. Nitrification alone does not explain stability, resilience, or competitive exclusion in closed systems. There’s a substantial body of literature—reef systems included—showing that microbial diversity and community structure influence outcomes well beyond ammonia oxidation. Acknowledging that doesn’t diminish classical nitrification; it just recognizes that it isn’t the only biological process occurring.


As for credentials, they’re valuable, but they don’t invalidate discussion or experimentation outside of academic labs. Many advances in reef keeping have historically come from hobbyists applying scientific principles pragmatically, long before they were formally characterized in peer-reviewed literature. Pointing out limitations is fair; dismissing the premise outright because it doesn’t involve mass sequencing is less productive.



At the end of the day, this isn’t about claiming absolute proof or overturning established science. It’s about refining tools, understanding mechanisms, and applying what we can measure to make systems more predictable and species-focused, rather than purely reactive.

More AI generated nonsense. All of the sudden you can use punctuation and grammar?

 

[BoaConservationist]

More AI generated nonsense. All of the sudden you can use punctuation and grammar?

Or i choose to use it, did you know the most efficient form of communication is a simple glyph? A simple glyph can convey an entire meaning, take for instance the ankh, a simple symbol, but you know what it means and its not a single word. what we can extrapolate from this is that simplicity in communication is best. Part of the reason these studies go above /miss the average consumer, way too over worded, way too many charts and data , its an overload for the avg user, coupled with zero regulation, and aggressive marketing.

Im ambidextrous, and dont feel like being super hoity toity wordsmith goku 24-7, im sorry if your attention span requires this. - they dropped the phd bomb so i cracked the knucks i guess

 

[CHSUB]

I can’t address Florida Wildlife & Fisheries policy. In Louisiana & Texas, collection of critters is legal with a valid fishing license. This collection does not allow you to sell it.

As long as you don’t create a navigation issue, I don’t see a legal issue with collecting what you put in the water.

Florida has very strict laws, don’t know about your area. What he describes, placing rock in the upper key or Naples for example and removing it is illegal. The book of what you can and can’t do in Florida is as big as an encyclopedia.

 

[Subsea]

Florida has very strict laws, don’t know about your area. What he describes, placing rock in the upper key or Naples for example and removing it is illegal. The book of what you can and can’t do in Florida is as big as an encyclopedia.

As an instrument tech in offshore production, I knew the CFR’s (Code of Federal Regulations) better than the USGS (later the MMS, Mineral Management Service).

It’s kind of like the tax code in the US. Many contradictions &
exemptions.

When I first researched being a coral growout mariculture facility in a greenhouse, I lived in Louisiana. Instead of being under the Department of Agriculture, mariculture was governed by Department of Wildlife & Fisheries which made biosecurity the highest priority. And it prohibited me as a small business with limited funds.

Both Florida & Hawaii Department of Agriculture have strong mariculture business ethics integrated with biosecurity that I appreciated when I researched the business side in 2005.

PS: Not sure that regulations help if people don’t become more responsible with their animals like Burmese pythons & Nile crocodile releases in Florida.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that a veterinary diagnostic lab is capable of full metagenomic or deep-shotgun sequencing, and I’m certainly not suggesting that PCR alone can document total biodiversity. That distinction is already well understood. PCR, by design, is targeted and reagent-limited; its value is in confirming presence or absence of specific functional or taxonomic groups, not in exhaustively cataloging a system.


That said, targeted molecular tools are still useful when applied appropriately. You don’t need full biodiversity documentation to evaluate specific hypotheses about microbial function, succession, or persistence. In both medical and environmental microbiology, targeted assays are routinely used to answer narrow but meaningful questions, especially when paired with ecological context and known metabolic roles.


I’d also push back slightly on the idea that discussing biodiversity somehow conflates or replaces the nitrogen cycle. The nitrogen cycle is a subset of microbial ecology, not the whole of it. Nitrification alone does not explain stability, resilience, or competitive exclusion in closed systems. There’s a substantial body of literature—reef systems included—showing that microbial diversity and community structure influence outcomes well beyond ammonia oxidation. Acknowledging that doesn’t diminish classical nitrification; it just recognizes that it isn’t the only biological process occurring.

As for credentials, they’re valuable, but they don’t invalidate discussion or experimentation outside of academic labs. Many advances in reef keeping have historically come from hobbyists applying scientific principles pragmatically, long before they were formally characterized in peer-reviewed literature. Pointing out limitations is fair; dismissing the premise outright because it doesn’t involve mass sequencing is less productive.

At the end of the day, this isn’t about claiming absolute proof or overturning established science. It’s about refining tools, understanding mechanisms, and applying what we can measure to make systems more predictable and species-focused, rather than purely reactive.

@revhtree this, and almost every other readable response from this is poster is unquestionably ChatGPT or other LLM. GPT in this case pure GPT 5.2