Live ocean rock, or not

[rtparty]

This is largely because back then they were selling live rock, but stopped, wonder why that was :)

When did BRS sell live rock and what kind of live rock was it?

 

[BoaConservationist]

When did BRS sell live rock and what kind of live rock was it?

just a few years ago, and they have had multiple types throughout the years, the "real reef rock" is what they were selling about 3-5 yrs ago and it was just maricultured purple junk - they saw no reason to continue offering it compared to dry, prior to this most of the real rock being sold was either scalped or from big buyers that was excess.

you can easily search waybills and imports - theres not a single company registering legal imported rock in the dockets, i have a tad of forensics skills in me noggin ;)

 

[rtparty]

just a few years ago, and they have had multiple types throughout the years, the "real reef rock" is what they were selling about 3-5 yrs ago and it was just maricultured purple junk

They have never sold actual live rock. They have sold "dry live rock" or rock that other companies claimed as "live rock" but none of it was cured, wet live rock.

Real Reef rock is not maricultured and does not claim to be.

Your last name happen to be Lazarko?

 

[BoaConservationist]

They have never sold actual live rock. They have sold "dry live rock" or rock that other companies claimed as "live rock" but none of it was cured, wet live rock.

Real Reef rock is not maricultured and does not claim to be.

Your last name happen to be Lazarko?

they were serving wet real reef rock years ago, you are incorrect, it can be seen in videos being unboxed also to verify. purple mariculture junk, they also offered pukani and other variances up there as well.

the new "real reef rock" is the same name different product

 

[rtparty]

they were serving wet real reef rock years ago, you are incorrect, it can be seen in videos being unboxed also to verify. purple mariculture junk, they also offered pukani and other variances up there as well.

the new "real reef rock" is the same name different product

Most of the Real Reef rock they sold/sell actually comes in totally dry. You are welcome to look at my 250g build thread and see the rock for yourself that they used to sell. Trust me, it didn't come in wet and when I had them look into it, every box in the warehouse was dry.

Do you know the common defintion of maricultured?

They never offered live pukani rock. Just dry Pukani. Same with Fiji.

Keep diggin. Your time is short on the forum

 

[BoaConservationist]

they literally advertised it as wet though bud, but, okay. Also your threat is cute but , im not here to offend anyone just show the facts straight up, im sorry if you are that offended by facts, anyone can dig up videos of wet rock from brs , i wont even argue with you anymore you are just trying to derail.

 

[dferrant]

theres nothing incorrect about anything stated and its me, but you can be mad about it, its all accurate, whats wrong?

definitely some weirdos on this forum, trying anything to attack my character for putting out logical information. I get it, nobody wants to be the idiot, you may have spent thousands of dollars on some scalped rocks, who knows, you may have personal interests in the companies involved, IDK, the answer is the truth though.

Dude, nobody is trying to attack you character. Do you realize that bean animal is not a rock seller but rather he has been involved with the hobby writing articles and providing DIY information for hobbyists since the late 1990s or early 2000s? He won’t mention it but fyi This is the dude that literally invented the type of overflow box and drain system that is now used on most commercially manufactured reef ready tanks including the one I just purchased

 

[BoaConservationist]

Dude, nobody is trying to attack you character. Do you realize that bean animal is not a rock seller but rather he has been involved with the hobby writing articles and providing DIY information for hobbyists since the late 1990s or early 2000s? He won’t mention it but fyi This is the dude that literally invented the type of overflow box and drain system that is now used on most commercially manufactured reef ready tanks including the one I just purchased

how do you know are u his accountant? even more concerning , skin in the game would just be a vector against him, not for him lol... more to lose, thus the aggressive rebuttals.

more trust me bro incoming in 5...4...

 

[rtparty]

they literally advertised it as wet though bud, but, okay. Also your threat is cute but , im not here to offend anyone just show the facts straight up, im sorry if you are that offended by facts, anyone can dig up videos of wet rock from brs , i wont even argue with you anymore you are just trying to derail.

The company making the rock claimed it could/would come in wet since it was "pre-cured" in saltwater. Not the ocean as you claim. But that wasn't happening. It was moving so slowly from vendor to retailer to end user it was drying out.

And anyone that ever got it knows it wasn't live rock

 

[BoaConservationist]

The company making the rock claimed it could/would come in wet since it was "pre-cured" in saltwater. Not the ocean as you claim. But that wasn't happening. It was moving so slowly from vendor to retailer to end user it was drying out.

And anyone that ever got it knows it wasn't live rock

AKA maricultured purple garbage :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

 

[dferrant]

I won’t respond any more. But for everyone reading, this is essentially why and how the hobby is now largely ruined and a shell of what it once was. We used to have a sense of community. People used to trade and give away frags when we would get together in meeting halls. Like the rest of our culture and language and society, it has rotted away. AI, internet addiction, dopamine driven scrolling, fancy “designer” corals that are actually tiny 3/4” brown nubs once you get them. No respect for experience or background or credentials. People used to have respect for long time hobbyists that shared their knowledge and experience by trial and error, people like Sanjay and Mike Paletta and Joe yaiullo. Everybody is now a pseudo expert with nothing to back it up or show for it because they can ask an AI algorithm and copy and paste the answer. It’s depressing and sick. It’s a microcosm of what the world is now turning into.

 

[buruskeee]

you must work for a live rock seller, idk, everything i say is backed by scientific fact, i see lots of uneducated responses so ill bow out gracefully cupcake

Alot of people are combative and hate being wrong but its true. I get it, nobody wants to be wrong, saying that a shrimp is more effective than bottled bacteria is retardo science

The irony in this post. Wow. Arrogance is definitely the obstruction of wisdom.

I also think you’re confusing a simple cycle - which is easily done with bottled bacteria - with minimizing dinos and other very bad stages of the uglies. Back a couple decades ago when it was all live rock, it was rare to see dinos. I’ve done it both ways multiple times, dry rock will predominantly be the more challenging route and there are plenty of actual studies showing more bio diversity in tanks started from live rock (including mature rock from established systems in this category - it doesn’t have to come directly from the ocean). Starting with dry rock is just asking to be challenged.

 

[BoaConservationist]

I won’t respond any more. But for everyone reading, this is essentially why and how the hobby is now largely ruined and a shell of what it once was. We used to have a sense of community. People used to trade and give away frags when we would get together in meeting halls. Like the rest of our culture and language and society, it has rotted away. AI, internet addiction, dopamine driven scrolling, fancy “designer” corals that are actually tiny 3/4” brown nubs once you get them. No respect for experience or background or credentials. People used to have respect for long time hobbyists that shared their knowledge and experience by trial and error, people like Sanjay and Mike Paletta and Joe yaiullo. Everybody is now a pseudo expert with nothing to back it up or show for it because they can ask an AI algorithm and copy and paste the answer. It’s depressing and sick. It’s a microcosm of what the work is now turning into.

providing a solid strategy for testing and analysis , yep, must be a pseudo scientist, yep, sure im the problem? lol look at this post its basically reading as a deterrent

Reefkeeping has always advanced when we replaced assumptions with better tools: test kits, ICP, controlled bacterial cultures, captive propagation, and now reproducible microbiology. Live rock was once the best option because it was the only option. That does not make it biologically superior today — it makes it historically necessary.

 

[BeanAnimal]

nothings hallucinated babes.

keep trying, clearly involved rock seller either alias or not idk but, you seem hurt

no, prodibio does that, bozo , you can tell you have nothing going on because the amount of useless rebuttal you are foaming off about is insane

how do you know are u his accountant? even more concerning , skin in the game would just be a vector against him, not for him lol... more to lose, thus the aggressive rebuttals.

you must work for a live rock seller, idk, everything i say is backed by scientific fact, i see lots of uneducated responses so ill bow out gracefully cupcake

I get it, nobody wants to be wrong, saying that a shrimp is more effective than bottled bacteria is retardo science

You asked for me to explain what was wrong with your post and the use of AI. I answered and pointed out the errors. I would be happy to respond directly if you have specific questions instead of a general rant.

I think you are confusing establishing a nitrogen cycle with a mature ecosystem and “science” and “education” with AI prompted answers.

I don’t sell anything to this hobby in any way and never have. I don’t have “skin in the game”. I participate in the hobby and forum for enjoyment.

more trust me bro incoming in 5...4...

This is a forum for people to share information and experience. While we don’t all agree on methods, equipment or goals, there is a level of community trust.

On the other hand you appear to be on a crusade against “live rock”, which in itself is fine. The issue is that when challenged in your posts, you accuse responders of being shills or conspirators in some kind of live rock cabal.

I think most people here are somewhat stunned at the aggressive behavior, personal attacks, deflections and appeals to authority and clear reliance on AI to argue. I think most would welcome a cordial conversation with you, minus the AI, insults and accusations. Maybe try that instead?

 

[Sneak]

providing a solid strategy for testing and analysis , yep, must be a pseudo scientist, yep, sure im the problem? lol look at this post its basically reading as a deterrent

Reefkeeping has always advanced when we replaced assumptions with better tools: test kits, ICP, controlled bacterial cultures, captive propagation, and now reproducible microbiology. Live rock was once the best option because it was the only option. That does not make it biologically superior today — it makes it historically necessary.

I think everyone agrees with you that you don’t need live rock to cycle a tank.

Where people disagree is which performs better in the first 18 months in terms of nuisance algae. I’d be curious what you have to say on that?

 

[buruskeee]

just a few years ago, and they have had multiple types throughout the years, the "real reef rock" is what they were selling about 3-5 yrs ago and it was just maricultured purple junk - they saw no reason to continue offering it compared to dry, prior to this most of the real rock being sold was either scalped or from big buyers that was excess.

you can easily search waybills and imports - theres not a single company registering legal imported rock in the dockets, i have a tad of forensics skills in me noggin ;)

Your arrogance is so blinding you have zero awareness of how ignorant you are in your claims.

Reel Reef Rock is a dry rock brand for one. lol. Wow.

Also, If you’re going to start using a dry rock, Reel Reef does it better - it’s not concrete slabs, it’s majority made using calcium carbonate and pH controlled.

This is one of the clearest examples of the Dunning–Kruger effect I’ve ever seen lol. Wow.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

The arrogance and the hubris I just have to respond. You are going to run cytology ? Fancy Jargon. And what exactly are you going to do and how are you going to conduct the “cytology” experiment ? What exactly will you prove, what is the actual hypothesis you plan to “prove it “? After all, it’s just science, right ? Are you going to swab two different rocks and count bacteria under a microscope? Or perhaps you would use flow cytometry? But of course as you know, that only shows cell type and size, scattering etc so you would need to couple it with some type of genetic sequencing technology. So do you plan to use a technique similar to environmental DNA, in which you would use PCR to look for and identify and then amplify the identifying genetic sequence fragments of certain bacteria ? Which Bacteria ? How do you know which bacteria you will be looking at ? Are you going to look for just nitrosomonas ? How would you even identify if you are looking at nitrosomonas? Do you have access to commercially available PCR primers that could amplify a nitrosomonas sequence, or would you have to synthesize them yourself ? Or maybe you plan to use something like proteomics or identification of certain mRNAs or proteins specific to the bacteria in question ? In which case I assume you have access to advanced liquid chromatography mass spectrometry systems with data processing software that require phd level training and experience to operate and interpret the data ? Suppose you somehow are able to accomplish one of these and suppose you somehow establish a quantitative correlation between, let’s say, abundance of nitrosomonas spp. on dry cycled rock vs wild ocean rock. Do you think that actually proves anything ? Where did you obtain the sample ? From the surface of the rock? Or would you drill into the rock and take samples from the interior ? How would you ensure that signals you are somehow measuring are from the bacteria on the rock and not contamination from the surrounding environment ? Do you honestly think that just the presence or even relative abundance of nitrosomonas spp, a single species, is the sole contributor to biological stability ? There are probably millions of species present on live rock. In fact I know so. If you were to sample and then shotgun PCR amplify the extract or a sample from actual live rock, the number of hits you would get against a database would be off the charts. My bet is if you used a sequencing technology of some sort on the ocean live rock, and ran it through a database of known microbial sequences such as a basic local alignment search tool, you would likely even find some that probably have no known match or alignment.

OMG! Thank You!

 

[dferrant]

providing a solid strategy for testing and analysis , yep, must be a pseudo scientist, yep, sure im the problem? lol look at this post its basically reading as a deterrent

Reefkeeping has always advanced when we replaced assumptions with better tools: test kits, ICP, controlled bacterial cultures, captive propagation, and now reproducible microbiology. Live rock was once the best option because it was the only option. That does not make it biologically superior today — it makes it historically necessary.

I can’t help it so I’ll respond again.
I think the tanks were better back in the day before ICP test kits and bacterial cultures. There were way less ugly tanks with bleached looking rocks. But you would have to have been alive and doing the hobby back then to know this. If you were not, you just know about the ****tier reality the way it is today. FYI everything today basically sucks compared to how it used to be. Whether it be cheap equipment that lasts a year and then craps out right before the warranty expires, the cheap furniture you can only buy now that is made of particle board only and lasts a year, everything made of cheap Chinese plastic and materials. Things used to not be like this. Aquarium pumps used to last 10 years. We used to make furniture out of solid wood and it would last for 3 generations. The tanks years ago were way better. LEDs now save on energy and eliminate chiller use with metal halide lamps, and more efficient pumps eliminate the need the for energy consuming external air cooled pumps like the old iwakis. Besides this, I haven’t seen an increase in the quality of the average Aquaria despite more technology. Alot of it is just noise in my opinion .

Also, I am not trying to insult or belittle you. You are probably just a kid. It’s not your fault. The next generation literally thinks AI knows more than experienced, seasoned people, whether it be hobbyists or professionals. College or even high school education is no longer about learning and gaining experience. It’s now about who can mindlessly produce or regurgitate the approved “ official “ answer using an AI algorithm which in and of itself is prone to hallucination and when operating, simply may scan through and deliver other unreliable information. So we train people to regurgitate information that has itself been regurgitated by a computer algorithm. It really is poetic. You are likely a product of this insanity and it is not your fault. If you ever have to use AI in a professional capacity for your job, you will likely be trained about how the algorithm can hallucinate. Bean was not saying you personally are hallucinating. This is a phenomenon that occurs in AI rendered answers which is why AI generated answers need to be checked and verified with human intuition.

I’ll even admit, I used to be a little like you back when I was younger on some of the old school forums like reef central and the reef tank. I think when you get to my age, you’ll see why some of what you said invoked the responses that it did from me and others. A lot of us here learned a lot of the information we have by trial and error and it comes over the years. As you get older, you come to realize that people more experienced than you often are right and are worth listening to. You don’t have to agree and can always challenge and provide alternative ideas. But the attitude and the demeanor and humility with which you do so matters. Learning this will not only help you in the hobby, but also your career. When I first left graduate school, I thought I knew everything. When I finally slowed down and really listened and considered the advice and guidance from some of the scientists that have been on the job for 25, 30, 40 years, my success and impact at my job skyrocketed. When you convey an attitude at work or in life, that you are humble, respectful and want to acquire new information, people that really know what they are taking about will often start helping you providing you with invaluable info and life lessons that no AI or internet search interaction could ever provide.

 

[BoaConservationist]

I think everyone agrees with you that you don’t need live rock to cycle a tank.

Where people disagree is which performs better in the first 18 months in terms of nuisance algae. I’d be curious what you have to say on that?

I think the 18-month algae thing gets overblown. Algae isn’t really about live rock vs dry rock, it’s about nutrients and how fast the tank stabilizes. Live rock just throws a bunch of stuff in all at once, including algae spores and grazers, so it can look “settled” sooner, but it also brings in plenty of junk you didn’t ask for.


Dry rock can have algae early if nutrients get ahead of bacteria and or grazers, but that’s a husbandry issue, not the rock itself. With bottled bacteria, controlled feeding, and proper export, dry rock tanks can do just as well or better in the same timeframe, just with fewer surprises.


It’s more about how you manage the system than what rock you start with , someone said archer versus arrow comment, and thats fair, also, none of my posts are meant to seem attacking or condescending to genuine good live rock sellers, obviously im not talking about these people in my other posts so please stop painting it as such, im talking about the bad ones, and the cost effectiveness of just buying colonies versus rocks, there are people selling great aqua/mariculture colonies.

 

[Subsea]

I think the 18-month algae thing gets overblown. Algae isn’t really about live rock vs dry rock, it’s about nutrients and how fast the tank stabilizes. Live rock just throws a bunch of stuff in all at once, including algae spores and grazers, so it can look “settled” sooner, but it also brings in plenty of junk you didn’t ask for.


Dry rock can have algae early if nutrients get ahead of bacteria and or grazers, but that’s a husbandry issue, not the rock itself. With bottled bacteria, controlled feeding, and proper export, dry rock tanks can do just as well or better in the same timeframe, just with fewer surprises.


It’s more about how you manage the system than what rock you start with , someone said archer versus arrow comment, and thats fair, also, none of my posts are meant to seem attacking or condescending to genuine good live rock sellers, obviously im not talking about these people in my other posts so please stop painting it as such, im talking about the bad ones, and the cost effectiveness of just buying colonies versus rocks, there are people selling great aqua/mariculture colonies.

Boa,
It occurs to me that your goal of attracting attention to yourself has succeeded. Good fortune for you, if that’s what you seek.

However, considering your arrogance, keep your rambling GPT chat to your own thread where you live. Many would applaud that discernment on your part.