Live ocean rock, or not

[X-37B]

i mean, youre attacking me tank keeping but my tank keeping is irrelevant to the entire topic here im just giving information on cycling the tank the sterile way versus risky way - everything i said regarding the rock situation and bacteria is proper- , deflecting topic hard, are you an employee possibly of a rock supplier? just curious ):

You literally think that bottled bacteria contains no useful bacteria, if that were the case people would be sueing them, period, show some source locations for the rock , show some actual proof that it works at a rate better than a proper dry rock cycle other than "trust me bro" , im documenting my entire process , using it more as a log personally but youre welcome to watch ;)

Most of us document our tanks from day one and use it as a reference log. Check my build threads, ongoing and past, and your "welcome to watch and learn".
If you want some actual proof look at my build threads. There is nothing to hide and anyone can learn if they want.

No one is attacking your tank. It speaks for itself.

To the OP, get some "Live Rock" for your system and enjoy.

"Tust Me Bro" I will watch your thread, lol.

Stick to snakes Bro we have enough snake oil in the hobby.

 

[Danjoethepirate]

Oh yes, regarding the ugly phase. There wasn’t one. I had some diatoms on the sand but a diamond goby added in November cleaned that right up. I realize that using white dead rock is the cleanest way to start a tank, but I wanted all of the ocean creatures and watching them gave me great pleasure. The few pests were not a big issue for me.

its cool people have all these stories but no actual proof or photos of their process, dropping a live rock in doesnt just automatically prevent you from failing in any way... lol.. nor is it even actually a big benefit or buffer. its the longest going scam in the hobby.

My favorite part of this whole thread right here. You think these people are wrong or flat out lying to you because they are telling you something that contradicts what you believe. You can't even consider that you are wrong or have some ill conceived notions about "bad" or "good".
Even considering that you might be right about what you say, let's be clear, I don't think that's the case, you have a problem.

If you were wrong you wouldn't even know. The cognitive dissonance is so strong that you wouldn't accept proof that is beyond annecdotal. People have told you there stories, you discount them. They tell you the rock is farmed, you suggest they are poaching them anyways. They show you the proof that the rock is farmed, you say live rock is a scam.

Until you can say I don't know everything or I was wrong you will not have the success you wish to have. Be it in reef tanks, this forum convincing others of the merits of your method, or life in general. Being confident is great, being arrogant without reason is foolhardy to say the least.

 

[littlefishy]

My favorite part of this whole thread right here. You think these people are wrong or flat out lying to you because they are telling you something that contradicts what you believe. You can't even consider that you are wrong or have some ill conceived notions about "bad" or "good".
Even considering that you might be right about what you say, let's be clear, I don't think that's the case, you have a problem.

If you were wrong you wouldn't even know. The cognitive dissonance is so strong that you wouldn't accept proof that is beyond annecdotal. People have told you there stories, you discount them. They tell you the rock is farmed, you suggest they are poaching them anyways. They show you the proof that the rock is farmed, you say live rock is a scam.

Until you can say I don't know everything or I was wrong you will not have the success you wish to have. Be it in reef tanks, this forum convincing others of the merits of your method, or life in general. Being confident is great, being arrogant without reason is foolhardy to say the least.

I’m pretty sure this is just trolling.

 

[Danjoethepirate]

My favorite part of this whole thread right here. You think these people are wrong or flat out lying to you because they are telling you something that contradicts what you believe. You can't even consider that you are wrong or have some ill conceived notions about "bad" or "good".
Even considering that you might be right about what you say, let's be clear, I don't think that's the case, you have a problem.

If you were wrong you wouldn't even know. The cognitive dissonance is so strong that you wouldn't accept proof that is beyond annecdotal. People have told you there stories, you discount them. They tell you the rock is farmed, you suggest they are poaching them anyways. They show you the proof that the rock is farmed, you say live rock is a scam.

Until you can say I don't know everything or I was wrong you will not have the success you wish to have. Be it in reef tanks, this forum convincing others of the merits of your method, or life in general. Being confident is great, being arrogant without reason is foolhardy to say the least.

I’m pretty sure this is just trolling.

Me, or what this guy is doing?

 

[Subsea]

For certain, the boa is trolling.

However, if you live in Florida, the Burmese Python is an ecological disaster because hobbiest turned loose their pets that got toooo big. And to top that off, some hobbiest have turned the Nile crocodile loose in Florida Everglades, The American alligator was the Everglades apex predator, now it is being overrun with two much more deadly aggressive apex predators with the Nile Crocodile listed as a man eater,

 

[Reefering1]

For certain, the boa is trolling.

However, if you live in Florida, the Burmese Python is an ecological disaster because hobbiest turned loose their pets that got toooo big.

Yes, we hunt them and their eggs...

 

[Tonycass12]

For certain, the boa is trolling

You should check out his build, I dont think he's trolling at all.

 

[Subsea]

You should check out his build, I dont think he's trolling at all.

I perused all of his threads before my first post. Very sophisticated words with much rhetoric. I see zero PROOF.

Tony, what do you think he/she is doing? I think Sheakspear covered this well, “She doth protest too much”.

 

[Tonycass12]

I looked at all of his threads before my first post. Very sophisticated words.

Tony, what do you think he/she is doing?

I think they have a fallacy that they are doing things the only right and sustainable way. They seem to be unwilling to compromise those beliefs. Seeing the anemone and sandsifting star in a fresh tank with white dead rock still cycling was a big red flag. Reading through their build i feel kinda bad, I hope they are successful but it reads like many of the builds we see that folks have to learn lessons the hard way before taking any of the advise they are given. Last post on their build they have some corals they are adding. Im following along on that thread as an observer just to see how it goes. Ive started tanks with dry and live rock and I wouldn't be adding an acro into a display that just got past it's first dino outbreak and hasn't started growing any coralline yet.

Just my 2c, I always try to take the advice of folks who have more experience and have some awesome successes with their systems. Its put me on a fairly good and successful path following in their footsteps.

 

[Subsea]

I think they have a fallacy that they are doing things the only right and sustainable way. They seem to be unwilling to compromise those beliefs. Seeing the anemone and sandsifting star in a fresh tank with white dead rock still cycling was a big red flag. Reading through their build i feel kinda bad, I hope they are successful but it reads like many of the builds we see that folks have to learn lessons the hard way before taking any of the advise they are given. Last post on their build they have some corals they are adding. Im following along on that thread as an observer just to see how it goes. Ive started tanks with dry and live rock and I wouldn't be adding an acro into a display that just got past it's first dino outbreak and hasn't started growing any coralline yet.

Just my 2c, I always try to take the advice of folks who have more experience and have some awesome successes with their systems. Its put me on a fairly good and successful path following in their footsteps.

I think you may be right about the motives of Boa. At my age, I see many sinister motives and I prefer to leave the Greek tragedies to Shakespeare:

“She doth protest too much" (or "The lady doth protest too much, methinks") is a famous line from Shakespeare's
Hamlet, meaning someone's denial is so strong it suggests they're hiding the opposite truth, often revealing guilt, hypocrisy, or insincerity, as Queen Gertrude noted about the Player Queen's exaggerated vows in the play-within-a-play. It's used when someone insists too vehemently on their innocence or dislike of something, making you suspect they're actually guilty or enjoy it.“

Me thinks; virtue signaling.

 

[X-37B]

For certain, the boa is trolling.

However, if you live in Florida, the Burmese Python is an ecological disaster because hobbiest turned loose their pets that got toooo big. And to top that off, some hobbiest have turned the Nile crocodile loose in Florida Everglades, The American alligator was the Everglades apex predator, now it is being overrun with two much more deadly aggressive apex predators with the Nile Crocodile listed as a man eater,

Very real! I have kept snakes over the years. Had 16 at one time.
Florida is the perfect breeding grounds for the Burmese.
I don't hunt anymore but rounding up Big Snakes and Crocs sounds like fun! I could always use a pair of Crocodile/Python boots.

 

[exnisstech]

Outstanding. I consider your cryptic refugium as display quality. What is bright orange stuff in bottom right.
Also, that floating algae scrubber is the “cats mow”.

I thought the orange was a type of sponge but am not really sure. It's another life form that made it's way in at some point. The scrubber is pretty awesome. It's a Santa Monica surf 4. It takes up very little space and was the only ATS I could find that didn't have a lot of light spill which was a requirement because having a cryptic area was part of the original plan. It also provides a nice supply of food for my tangs.

 

[dferrant]

Starting with dry rock doesn’t mean a “sterile” or unsafe tank anymore — it just means you control what biology goes in. Live rock used to be the only way to import nitrifying bacteria and coralline, but today those can be added intentionally via bottled cultures (Prodibio BioDigest/Nitrosomonas, ARC Reef Coralline, pods, etc.), without importing aiptasia, bryopsis, vermetids, crabs, or other long-term pests. It’s also the more sustainable option and gives you predictable outcomes and better aquascaping freedom.


There’s also an important distinction between an instant biological cycle and immediate livestock safety. Products like Prodibio Stop Ammo don’t magically complete the cycle, but they bind toxic ammonia into a non-toxic, bioavailable form --convert to aminos etc--, protecting fish and inverts while bacteria colonize the rock and surfaces. Paired with a proper nitrifier, the tank is functionally safe from day one, even though the microbial population is still maturing. No shortcuts to biology — just a cleaner, more controlled way to get there.

I’ve been in this hobby since 2004 and I can tell everyone here, not to be disrespectful, what you are preaching is absolute nonsense. Don’t listen to this guy. This is a recipe for an ugly tank and no success. Back in the day we used to use only real live rock that would be air freighted in. I don’t remember hearing about any of the problems and tank uglies people struggle with today. If you think you are getting any degree of biodiversity from dry rock and bottled bacteria, that is insane. There are likely countless species , some probably not even identified, on live rock and also there is an established biofilm on the rock that outcompetes algae’s etc. also the people that use dry sterile rock and start up “ sterile” they still seem to struggle with algae and pests later anyway !

 

[dferrant]

This tank was started with wild ocean rock and natural sea water. I am currently building a 150 and just had 100 lb of Australian live rock air freighted in from various sources. Cost me almost $2000. That’s how much I think it is critical . I wouldn’t waste my time starting a system without it unless you use dry rock and seed with a small amount of real rock, which is still inferior and will take significantly longer to establish stability. Not to be mean spirited because this is meant to help steer people in the right direction- ask honestly what percentage of tanks on here get to look like the one below ? Probably less than 10%. Listen from the people who have had major success. Most are not using dry rock. Probably some have and there are isolated success stories. I am convinced now that the current failure rate in the hobby and prevalence of ugly tanks is due to dry rock use. Mike Paletta explores this topic in some of the interviews on American reef which you can watch on you tube.

Also note the tank pictured below, is approximately a three year old tank at the time the photo was taken after being set up with real live rock. There was an additional compartment in the sump that consisted of crushed real ocean live rock rubble that formed a cryptic low light zone with sponges, etc growing like crazy

 

[dferrant]

Also regarding the impact to real reefs.. okay back in the day when they blew the rock out of the reef bed using dynamite is one thing… but now in Australia and other places almost all the rock is hand collected coral rubble from the base of the reef that has fallen and tumbled down due to storms and surf etc… at this point in the world the reefs have bigger problems mainly driven by increase in ocean temperature and collecting dead coral rubble from the base of the reef is having literally minimal or approaching zero effect on that. Moreover, the stimulation to the economy and the livelihood of people that live around the reef and depend on things like the aquarium trade is also important. A lot of people that have come into the hobby more recently probably don’t even know fish used to be collected with cyanide….

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

also- don’t underestimate live sand as well.

 

[Subsea]

I thought the orange was a type of sponge but am not really sure. It's another life form that made it's way in at some point. The scrubber is pretty awesome. It's a Santa Monica surf 4. It takes up very little space and was the only ATS I could find that didn't have a lot of light spill which was a requirement because having a cryptic area was part of the original plan. It also provides a nice supply of food for my tangs.

I looked at the price and can’t go there. Too frugal, so I made this upflow remote algae refugium from clear 3”PVC. Please be gentle with my wiring diagram: it’s 12vdc. I think Santa Monica is a very sleek, effective unit that is easy to service. I use mine as a pod reactor but will soon start harvesting ulvae.

also- don’t underestimate live sand as well.

I like running up-flow thru substrate using a plenum void: reverse flow under-gravel filter.

 

[dferrant]

its not a take its just science , i haven't seen one slide from a live florida rock from one of these proposed companies to verify its any more alive than a random colony from a wholesaler nor its true origin being put up for display, also, in your results, its likely you had a better grip and understanding, different livestock, and different inputs, nothing about thats scientific.

Furthermore, let’s talk about where this "florida" rock is coming from (has anyone vetted the species coming in on the rock to even verify its florida in origin?) , have any

I wasn’t going to take the bait but I will. The microbiological diversity comes from pores deep within the rock. BRS which is not even that scientific did this experiment, even with the dry mined rock it loses a different amount of water when drying so it’s porosity is different .Just because you are probably a lab technician that swabbed the surface of a rock and looked at it under a microscope doesn’t prove anything. An 8 th grade level exercise with middle school level logic. Then claim to know science and be a representative for the bastion of science. You are probably the type that wore two masks and stayed exactly 6 feet apart at the grocery store even though all these things were proven by “science” to do absolutely nothing. But hey, you believe in science, right?
I’ll tell everybody on here how you spot an actual scientist: we admit that we don’t always know. That there is a lot to be learned. That most things we are still figuring out. I spent eight years of my life studying to be a scientist in graduate school. It is very irritating to have to endure people making claims on behalf of “science.”

 

[dferrant]

its not a take its just science , i haven't seen one slide from a live florida rock from one of these proposed companies to verify its any more alive than a random colony from a wholesaler nor its true origin being put up for display, also, in your results, its likely you had a better grip and understanding, different livestock, and different inputs, nothing about thats scientific.

Furthermore, lets talk about where this "florida" rock is coming from (has anyone vetted the species coming in on the rock to even verify its florida in origin?) , have any of you actually dove the sites and seen the condition of the reef in say, the past year ? or two? If so I don't think you would be so on board with this, the gulfs being absolutely farmed out and destroyed. "Gulf of america" as Noaa now calls it, go take a gander.


I might be new here but im not new to the importation of animals and whats going on in that realm, along with business and marketing tactics companies will use.

Marcorocks mariculturing coralline is nice but you can buy coralline frags for 10-30$ and get actually nice variety like branching type, that isnt coming from a "trust me bro" source.

You dont sound like you have been at this for very long. 15 or so years ago we used to all be able to walk into the local fish shop and buy live rock from Fiji. You could have a tank set up and thriving nearly right away. You are not going to get the diversity in bacteria or microfauna with dry rock+ any of the bottled stuff you can buy. One of our local guys had a group on discord that analyzed a couple bottles of the "reef starter" bacteria and they turned out to mostly have nitrifying bacteria that comes from chicken ****, stuff that as your tank matures nearly or completely dissappears from the system as it's out competed by the bacteria you eventually bring in with corals and your other inhabitants.

Back in the day when we set up with the lfs live rock from Fiji, it was an instant tank.

 

[dferrant]

Indeed...just use the magic bottles and you'll be there in no time...theres no marketing tactics in those things. People and science have proven time and time again they are smarter than mother nature.

Despite my rantings and ravings, your sharp sarcasm here summarizes it much better than anything I have said. This guy gets it.