Live ocean rock, or not

[BoaConservationist]

Chris,
I perused your other two threads and your points of view are strongly entrenched in your veterinary science background. As a marine engineer, a superintendent in municipal waste water treatment using activated sludge (bacteria at work) and 55 years of marine aquarium husbandry, I suggest you show a little less arrogance and learn something called “humility”.

As I learn more, I realize how much more there is to know.

I read your tank journal; get back when you can show us how much you know. Yes, I looked for some of the tanks that you linked in your signature.

Also, your first post reads like AI. Glad for your organization.

you must work for a live rock seller, idk, everything i say is backed by scientific fact, i see lots of uneducated responses so ill bow out gracefully cupcake

Alot of people are combative and hate being wrong but its true. I get it, nobody wants to be wrong, saying that a shrimp is more effective than bottled bacteria is science

 

[Subsea]

you must work for a live rock seller, idk, everything i say is backed by scientific fact, i see lots of uneducated responses so ill bow out gracefully cupcake

Glad you saw the light.
If it’s backed by scientific research, then list your peer review articles so we can all be educated.

 

[BoaConservationist]

also, show the source, nobody ever has, for all we know the "good sellers" could be buying from poachers/ dest

Glad you saw the light.
If it’s backed by scientific research then list your peer review articles so we can all be educated.

I dont need to educate you , go look it up and prove me wrong, youre cocky for no reason

 

[Subsea]

also, show the source, nobody ever has, for all we know the "good sellers" could be buying from poachers/ dest



I dont need to educate you , go look it up and prove me wrong, youre cocky for no reason

I don’t t need to prove anything.
OP asked for experience with wild rock and I gave it.

You claimed wild rock was useless & bad. I suggest that you have everything to prove with that belief.

 

[Reefering1]

also, show the source, nobody ever has, for all we know the "good sellers" could be buying from poachers/ dest



I dont need to educate you , go look it up and prove me wrong, youre cocky for no reason

You, the only cocky one, barely have water in a tank. Everyone here has proven thriving systems. Get back to us in 9 months.

 

[BoaConservationist]

I have to remember that this post is almost like marketing for them and likely not a real post to begin with

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I’m considering ordering live rock from the keys to assist in seeding a new tank that I’m setting up. Good or bad idea, would love to hear someone’s experience.

We got $10k of deep water rock Atlantic from Terra Subaqua about 17 years ago. It was wonderful. It was so fresh that we even got damselfish hitchhikers ((grin). No real die off, it even had some encrusting stony corals on it.

 

[serval]

FYI, I just received a 40lb order from TBS and suggest you hold the rock in a separate tank for a while. So far I have Barnacles, a Brittle Star, and at least 3 Anemones (Maybe Pests), and some Feather Dusters. I also have a 2.5 smasher shrimp, pistol shrimps that I have yet to see, and the latest problem that I noticed is dozens of little crabs that are probably pests that I'm not sure how to get rid of. The Tank is a 40 gallon breeder setup for holding purposes. You need to shine a light in your Tank at night as they are nocturnal. Maybe the smasher will wipe them out before I rehome him.

I also started with 40lbs of live rock from TBS. Tank was started in mid July. Much of the life from the Gulf did not maintain, long term. The crabs have whittled down to one red ruby Mithrax. The porcelain crabs are gone as is any macro algae. Most of the tiny native corals (cup coral, etc) have been out competed by corals I’ve added later. One mantis (2.5” wennerae) is still present and I feed her krill though she still eats the snails. I had quite a few Bellactis lux which TBS says doesn’t spread, but was concerned and eliminated them. A mollie miller seems to make sure that stays that way. MM also munched the macro algae. I did see a few gorilla crabs in the beginning, but either mantis ate them or they did not persist.

What’s still present: limpets, the mantis, sponges, some remaining corals. Definitely not a tank full of pests.

 

[serval]

FYI, I just received a 40lb order from TBS and suggest you hold the rock in a separate tank for a while. So far I have Barnacles, a Brittle Star, and at least 3 Anemones (Maybe Pests), and some Feather Dusters. I also have a 2.5 smasher shrimp, pistol shrimps that I have yet to see, and the latest problem that I noticed is dozens of little crabs that are probably pests that I'm not sure how to get rid of. The Tank is a 40 gallon breeder setup for holding purposes. You need to shine a light in your Tank at night as they are nocturnal. Maybe the smasher will wipe them out before I rehome him.

I also started with 40lbs of live rock from TBS. Tank was started in mid July. Much of the life from the Gulf did not maintain, long term. The crabs have whittled down to one red ruby Mithrax. The porcelain crabs are gone as is any macro algae. Most of the tiny native corals (cup coral, etc) have been out competed by corals I’ve added later. One mantis (2.5” wennerae) is still present and I feed her krill though she still eats the snails. I had quite a few Bellactis lux which TBS says doesn’t spread, but was concerned and eliminated them. A mollie miller seems to make sure that stays that way. MM also munched the macro algae. I did see a few gorilla crabs in the beginning, but either mantis ate them or they did not persist.

What’s still present: limpets, the mantis, sponges, some remaining corals. Definitely not a tank full of pests.

Oh yes, regarding the ugly phase. There wasn’t one. I had some diatoms on the sand but a diamond goby added in November cleaned that right up. I realize that using white dead rock is the cleanest way to start a tank, but I wanted all of the ocean creatures and watching them gave me great pleasure. The few pests were not a big issue for me.

 

[BoaConservationist]

Oh yes, regarding the ugly phase. There wasn’t one. I had some diatoms on the sand but a diamond goby added in November cleaned that right up. I realize that using white dead rock is the cleanest way to start a tank, but I wanted all of the ocean creatures and watching them gave me great pleasure. The few pests were not a big issue for me.

its cool people have all these stories but no actual proof or photos of their process, dropping a live rock in doesnt just automatically prevent you from failing in any way... lol.. nor is it even actually a big benefit or buffer. its the longest going scam in the hobby.

 

[littlefishy]

If any of the sellers of live rock in FL ever got caught buying from poachers, that would be the end of their business and no doubt the loss of related assets. It’s crazy to think that. They have many tons of rock placed years to decades ago on state leased sand bottom.
I am a happy KP customer who still has clams from that shipment 6 ys in, with a 3 day mini-cycle. The only bad hitchhiker I had was a pistol shrimp if you don’t like them. All aiptasia came ys later from store frags.
If a person wants to start dry rock, that’s fine, it’ll take a bit longer is all.

 

[serval]

Oh yes, regarding the ugly phase. There wasn’t one. I had some diatoms on the sand but a diamond goby added in November cleaned that right up. I realize that using white dead rock is the cleanest way to start a tank, but I wanted all of the ocean creatures and watching them gave me great pleasure. The few pests were not a big issue for me.

its cool people have all these stories but no actual proof or photos of their process, dropping a live rock in doesnt just automatically prevent you from failing in any way... lol.. nor is it even actually a big benefit or buffer. its the longest going scam in the hobby.

 

[serval]

Oh yes, regarding the ugly phase. There wasn’t one. I had some diatoms on the sand but a diamond goby added in November cleaned that right up. I realize that using white dead rock is the cleanest way to start a tank, but I wanted all of the ocean creatures and watching them gave me great pleasure. The few pests were not a big issue for me.

its cool people have all these stories but no actual proof or photos of their process, dropping a live rock in doesnt just automatically prevent you from failing in any way... lol.. nor is it even actually a big benefit or buffer. its the longest going scam in the hobby.

Those photos are early days. Here’s this months look.

 

[W31Olds]

When I first started up my Tank, I used some Dry rock for Aqua scaping and some Gulf Live Rock also. There is a difference. To this day over a year later the Dry Rock doesn't grow the Coraline as well and small inverts like feather dusters don't seem to inhabit it. I like the Dry Rock because you can Epoxy and Mortar it together to make tall structures, so a mix might be the correct approach.

 

[MegabiteOG]

Start all the systems you want with dead white rock no problem.
The US live rock of today is farmed, no chopping up the reefs.

Anyone who has been at this long enough knows it can be done both ways.

Why bottled bacteria in a dead rock start. Just use a piece of shrimp or some ammonia. Old school, lol.

With live, farmed rock, you can add corals within a few weeks.

Mix dead and live at 50% and the dead gets the uglies and in 6+ months you wont be able to tell which was dead.

Can your dead rock system go from zero to 8 months and look like my 15 at 8 months?

I totally agree with you @X-37B that you can have a successful reef tank starting with or without quality and/ or mature live rock. You are 100% right in what you said in my opinion.

My take mirrors yours in that the speed and simplicity of getting a reef tank to start thriving in a short amount of time without good live rock is next to impossible.

I just upgraded from a 90 to a 180 using all live rock (new rock from Gulf Live Rock 80#s and from my 90 gallon 80#s). I also used 80# of Gulf live sand and 80#s of dry special grade.

I put the first bucket of water in this tank just 78 days ago today. My tank, corals, and fish are not just surviving, but they are thriving with great growth and health. You just can’t do that starting with dry rock period.

My tank is already very stable with no issues. In my opinion this is due to starting up with real live rock/ sand and of course properly maintaining parameters and the proper care of the livestock. I keep both difficult and easy corals and fish too. I have a tone of pictures on my build thread proving this out.

I’m very happy with my decision of going pretty much all out live to start.

 

[AgentKooper]

I started my first tank three years ago with all Marco dry rock. I added fish two months after filling the tank. A month later a hair algae outbreak started raging and lasted 18 months. Coralline algae has finally just started growing on the rocks within the past couple months.

I started my second tank nine months ago with 30 pounds of dry Marco rock and two pounds of live lock rubble from KP Aquatics. It’s a 50g tank, and I currently have eight fish in it. I’ve have no nuisance algae whatsoever, had a cyano outbreak at about the 7 month mark that subsided fairly quickly, and have coralline growing on the rocks, along with sponges, tiny oysters, and two pencil urchins that came in on the live rock.

Make of that what you will.

I love that there’s someone here, with all the authority a three-week-old tank gives him, hijacking the thread to lecture everybody about how live rock is a scam. Hot take alert!!

 

[BoaConservationist]

I started my first tank three years ago with all Marco dry rock. I added fish two months after filling the tank. A month later a hair algae outbreak started raging and lasted 18 months. Coralline algae has finally just started growing on the rocks within the past couple months.

I started my second tank nine months ago with 30 pounds of dry Marco rock and two pounds of live lock rubble from KP Aquatics. It’s a 50g tank, and I currently have eight fish in it. I’ve have no nuisance algae whatsoever, had a cyano outbreak at about the 7 month mark that subsided fairly quickly, and have coralline growing on the rocks, along with sponges, tiny oysters, and two pencil urchins that came in on the live rock.

Make of that what you will.

I love that there’s someone here, with all the authority a three-week-old tank gives him, hijacking the thread to lecture everybody about how live rock is a scam. Hot take alert!!

its not a take its just science , i haven't seen one slide from a live florida rock from one of these proposed companies to verify its any more alive than a random colony from a wholesaler nor its true origin being put up for display, also, in your results, its likely you had a better grip and understanding, different livestock, and different inputs, nothing about thats scientific.

Furthermore, lets talk about where this "florida" rock is coming from (has anyone vetted the species coming in on the rock to even verify its florida in origin?) , have any of you actually dove the sites and seen the condition of the reef in say, the past year ? or two? If so I don't think you would be so on board with this, the gulfs being absolutely farmed out and destroyed. "Gulf of america" as Noaa now calls it, go take a gander.


I might be new here but im not new to the importation of animals and whats going on in that realm, along with business and marketing tactics companies will use.

Marcorocks mariculturing coralline is nice but you can buy coralline frags for 10-30$ and get actually nice variety like branching type, that isnt coming from a "trust me bro" source.

 

[billyocean]

its not a take its just science , i haven't seen one slide from a live florida rock from one of these proposed companies to verify its any more alive than a random colony from a wholesaler nor its true origin being put up for display, also, in your results, its likely you had a better grip and understanding, different livestock, and different inputs, nothing about thats scientific.

Furthermore, lets talk about where this "florida" rock is coming from (has anyone vetted the species coming in on the rock to even verify its florida in origin?) , have any of you actually dove the sites and seen the condition of the reef in say, the past year ? or two? If so I don't think you would be so on board with this, the gulfs being absolutely farmed out and destroyed. "Gulf of america" as Noaa now calls it, go take a gander.


I might be new here but im not new to the importation of animals and whats going on in that realm, along with business and marketing tactics companies will use.

Marcorocks mariculturing coralline is nice but you can buy coralline frags for 10-30$ and get actually nice variety like branching type, that isnt coming from a "trust me bro" source.

Indeed...just use the magic bottles and you'll be there in no time...theres no marketing tactics in those things. People and science have proven time and time again they are smarter than mother nature.

 

[CHSUB]

its not a take its just science , i haven't seen one slide from a live florida rock from one of these proposed companies to verify its any more alive than a random colony from a wholesaler nor its true origin being put up for display, also, in your results, its likely you had a better grip and understanding, different livestock, and different inputs, nothing about thats scientific.

Furthermore, lets talk about where this "florida" rock is coming from (has anyone vetted the species coming in on the rock to even verify its florida in origin?) , have any of you actually dove the sites and seen the condition of the reef in say, the past year ? or two? If so I don't think you would be so on board with this, the gulfs being absolutely farmed out and destroyed. "Gulf of america" as Noaa now calls it, go take a gander.


I might be new here but im not new to the importation of animals and whats going on in that realm, along with business and marketing tactics companies will use.

Marcorocks mariculturing coralline is nice but you can buy coralline frags for 10-30$ and get actually nice variety like branching type, that isnt coming from a "trust me bro" source.

So yes, got it in Tampa last year in Lowe’s parking lot. Hours north of the Florida keys and protected reefs. You make a fine point that a tank can be successful with live or sterile rock but the other crap you’re spewing is garbage.

 

[BoaConservationist]

No problem, ill be the huckleberry, i have an idea, give me just a few weeks to recover and we will run some Boa Investigates, there is absolutely zero way that live rock will perform better than scientific made rock- hypothesis.

Either way, stop chopping live reefs weirdos :)