Live Sand as a Weapon Against Dinos

[capt.dave]

I have a confirmed case of Amphidnium in my reef tank. I’ve been fighting for about 1 year. I tried blackout, I tried Dr Tim’s Dino recipe, and I tried an appropriately sized (expensive!) UV before I knew they were amphidinium (UV does nothing against them because they do not leave the sand bed). THEN I bought a microscope and confirmed why UV doesn’t help. Take my advice, microscopes are cheaper than UV sterilizers.

What did work, for several months, was the Elegance Corals Method. I had to repeat the two week regimen twice but it did work. But, Dino’s are never gone. It’s something you manage with beneficial organisms like bacteria and diatoms that can outcompete and keep it in check. We used to say, we don’t keep corals and fish, we keep water. Now we know what we really need to keep is bacteria.

Unfortunately, the Dino’s are back. Not sure what changed in the tank but man, are they back. So I turned off the expensive UV and started Elegance again. Round 1 (first two weeks) done. Getting ready for round 2.

So my question is this. While I’m confident this will work, I recall BRS TV Guy Ryan talking about how he solved a lot of problems in his 360 by adding Ocean Direct sand. The live bacteria on the sand coated everything in his tank and his ugly phase went away quickly. So I am considering adding 20 pounds to my 120 gal tank. I’ll layer the sand over my existing probably too shallow sand bed, burying the Dino’s under an inch of sand. Now I have no delusions that just burying Dino’s in sand will kill them, but I wonder if burying them in ocean sand with a healthy biome might knock them back long enough to reestablish a healthy biom in the tank faster.

I will still repeat Elegance, because that works eventually, but thought I’d add this.

Thoughts? Anyone try this?

 

[J1a]

It’s something you manage with beneficial organisms like bacteria and diatoms that can outcompete and keep it in check.

I agree completely with this. Between competing for nutrients, alleopathic effects and predation. We can really keep dino in check without wiping out much of the microflora and microfauna.

Looking at the bacteria diversity is the first step, but what I find most important is the complete ecosystem. Epiphyte, pods and worms are all important. So yes. I believe real live rocks and live sands can really help.

 

[J1a]

Looking at ocean direct, I'm not sure if it has all those micro-organism other than bacteria. I might be wrong though.

 

[Miami Reef]

Let us know your results.

 

[Jedi Knghit]

I had a long battle with LC Amph. I threw everything including the kitchen sink at it. I attribute adding live rock from KP aquatics and a mix and match kit from ISPF (including wondermud and live sand activator) to boost diversity after knocking the dinos back via a blackout first.

Also, make sure you nutrients are something above 0, and stay there.

 

[Lavey29]

Before you jump to the remedy you need to identify and correct the source of your problem

 

[capt.dave]

Before you jump to the remedy you need to identify and correct the source of your problem

The source of the problem was likely near zero NO3 and PO4 for a prolonged period of time. That likely starved out much of my biome. I’ve corrected that with NeoNitro and NeoPhos and Elegance Regimen replenished much of the biome with a soup of different bacterial products (Microbacter 7, Dr Tim’s Waste Away, and Live Rock Enhance) but we have no way of knowing how different those products really are. So I’m going to try going to the source by adding an inch of live, unrinced sand. I’m sure I’ll get lots of the same bacteria but perhaps I’ll get some stuff that’s missing.

BRS released mid-term results of their Aquabiome DNA test on 10 tanks last month and after 4 weeks, Ocean Direct came in 3rd behind Aquaforest Life Source (2nd) and just adding coral (amazingly first). I’ve read that Aquaforest stuff is from Fiji, so really clean and healthy reef but Fiji is a volcanic island made up of magnetic basalt (not iron) that might get into pump impellers and I already have coral. So I’m going to try Ocean Direct along with another round of Elegance. I’ll let you know how it goes.

 

[Lavey29]

The source of the problem was likely near zero NO3 and PO4 for a prolonged period of time. That likely starved out much of my biome. I’ve corrected that with NeoNitro and NeoPhos and Elegance Regimen replenished much of the biome with a soup of different bacterial products (Microbacter 7, Dr Tim’s Waste Away, and Live Rock Enhance) but we have no way of knowing how different those products really are. So I’m going to try going to the source by adding an inch of live, unrinced sand. I’m sure I’ll get lots of the same bacteria but perhaps I’ll get some stuff that’s missing.

BRS released mid-term results of their Aquabiome DNA test on 10 tanks last month and after 4 weeks, Ocean Direct came in 3rd behind Aquaforest Life Source (2nd) and just adding coral (amazingly first). I’ve read that Aquaforest stuff is from Fiji, so really clean and healthy reef but Fiji is a volcanic island made up of magnetic basalt (not iron) that might get into pump impellers and I already have coral. So I’m going to try Ocean Direct along with another round of Elegance. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Any type of natural approach will be better then dumping chemicals into the tank in my opinion. I've dealt with various problems the first year as well and natural bacteria supplement along with a diverse cleaner crew and stabil good parameters have evolved my tank to a better level now. So I think your approach could be beneficial but curious what sand can do that a piece or two of natural live rock cant?

 

[pap2]

I have a confirmed case of Amphidnium in my reef tank. I’ve been fighting for about 1 year. I tried blackout, I tried Dr Tim’s Dino recipe, and I tried an appropriately sized (expensive!) UV before I knew they were amphidinium (UV does nothing against them because they do not leave the sand bed). THEN I bought a microscope and confirmed why UV doesn’t help. Take my advice, microscopes are cheaper than UV sterilizers.

What did work, for several months, was the Elegance Corals Method. I had to repeat the two week regimen twice but it did work. But, Dino’s are never gone. It’s something you manage with beneficial organisms like bacteria and diatoms that can outcompete and keep it in check. We used to say, we don’t keep corals and fish, we keep water. Now we know what we really need to keep is bacteria.

Unfortunately, the Dino’s are back. Not sure what changed in the tank but man, are they back. So I turned off the expensive UV and started Elegance again. Round 1 (first two weeks) done. Getting ready for round 2.

So my question is this. While I’m confident this will work, I recall BRS TV Guy Ryan talking about how he solved a lot of problems in his 360 by adding Ocean Direct sand. The live bacteria on the sand coated everything in his tank and his ugly phase went away quickly. So I am considering adding 20 pounds to my 120 gal tank. I’ll layer the sand over my existing probably too shallow sand bed, burying the Dino’s under an inch of sand. Now I have no delusions that just burying Dino’s in sand will kill them, but I wonder if burying them in ocean sand with a healthy biome might knock them back long enough to reestablish a healthy biom in the tank faster.

I will still repeat Elegance, because that works eventually, but thought I’d add this.

Thoughts? Anyone try this?

This is something I have considered but luckily I haven't had to do it. I think it will work.

 

[Stang67]

What is the Elegance method? Still new and learning.

 

[taricha]

What is the Elegance method? Still new and learning.

Short version, slam the system with heavy carbon dose. Lots of heterotroph bacterial growth overwhelms nuisances growing on surface.
It certainly shakes things up a lot. Many have had success, certainly in short term. Unknown if helps longer term.

 

[taricha]

So I am considering adding 20 pounds to my 120 gal tank. I’ll layer the sand over my existing probably too shallow sand bed, burying the Dino’s under an inch of sand. Now I have no delusions that just burying Dino’s in sand will kill them, but I wonder if burying them in ocean sand with a healthy biome might knock them back long enough to reestablish

Better to suck out the bad parts of the old and add new than layer over.

 

[capt.dave]

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions. Very helpful!

UPDATE: I completed one more week of Elegance Corals regimen for Dinos, adding lots of Dr Tim’s and Microbacter 7 plus a lot of vodka. Sand looked absolutely awful. All that new bacteria and carbon bottomed my Nitrates and Phosphates again. Have to watch that more closely. Added NeoNitro and NeoPhos to correct.

Today I pulled all the low lying coral and rock islands off the sand bed and did a 20% water change, really to vacuum the sand really well. I made no attempt to limit how much sand got sucked out with the lighter junk, hopefully including Dinos. The sand looked a lot cleaner. though I know that’s not a solution. Then I added 20 pounds of Ocean Direct sand. What a mess.

I added sand a cup at a time, dumping it as close to the sand bed as I could but still clouded up the water. That’s a good thing, because all that bacteria laden sand dust will settle on everything and go to work. I’m sure the fish aren’t too happy but I think they’ll be fine. So now I have about 3/4 to an inch of new Ocean Direct sand above about a half inch of old Dino sand. Of course that won’t irradiate the Dinos but I certainly reduced their number and buried what’s left in darkness. Now they’ll have to travel an inch upward (a long way when you’re microscopic) past a lot of competing bacteria to get back to the light. That’s my theory, anyway. I’ll let you know how it goes.

 

[BanjoBandito]

Suck the visible dinos up and dose silicates to induce a diatom bloom. That’s how I got mine (amph). I tried all the witchcraft. That’s what worked.

 

[capt.dave]

Suck the visible dinos up and dose silicates to induce a diatom bloom. That’s how I got mine (amph). I tried all the witchcraft. That’s what worked.

Yes, that’s the second part of the Elegance method and I was wrestling with whether to do that or let the tank settle a bit. Even good changes like improving biodiversity can be destabilizing if you do it all at once like I just did. But I think you’re right. The last thing I want is to let them up off the mat. I’m going to start silicates today. Also need to make sure nutrients don’t bottom and starve all that new bacteria. Daily testing and dosing if needed for PO4 and NO3 until it stabilizes between 0.05-0.10 ppm PO4 and 5-15 ppm NO3.

Thanks!

 

[capt.dave]

UPDATE:
This morning I added silicates at the start of the light cycle. 3.3 ml NuAlgae and 24 ml Ecosystem Reef Solutions vitamins and minerals per Elegance Regimen.

The cloud of San dust has mostly cleared as you can see . You can see in the middle the bleached Monti, victim of STN. I haven’t encountered anything so destabilizing as Dinos and the fight to control them.

there is a half inch to an inch of the new sand over the old. It looks thin in the picture below but it’s a lot deeper in some areas. The power heads blow it around a bit.

Phosphates we’re ok today at 0.05 but Nitrates we’re low at 2.5 so I boosted those with NeoNitro. I’m trying to keep them between 5 and 10. Nitrates are always low lately and that’s the problem. All this nitrifying bacteria I’m trying to grow obviously makes it hard to keep nitrates where I need them so you have to stay on top of it with lots of food or nitrate supplements like NeoNitro. If those bottom the bacteria starve and die out and the Dinos come roaring back.

it looks good so far but late in the day I’m just starting to see some discoloration in the sand, like the Dino’s are coming up.

Tomorrow I will start Elegance week 2, which is designed to feed the bacteria you add in week one and add some more via Live Rock Enhance. I really like this stuff. It’s a powder and you mix it up and let it sit for 30 minutes beforehand then put it in. Elegance has you add a massive amount and I use a turkey blaster and inject it into the sand bed. Lots of cloudiness but it’s on the bottom and settles into the sand where I need it.

And with all that, daily testing of nitrates and phosphates is critical. I bought all this bacteria and supplements to grow diatoms to outcompete Dinoflagellates. If I don’t feed them enough they’ll starve and the dinos will eat them. This is hard!

More to follow.

 

[Spare time]

Short version, slam the system with heavy carbon dose. Lots of heterotroph bacterial growth overwhelms nuisances growing on surface.
It certainly shakes things up a lot. Many have had success, certainly in short term. Unknown if helps longer term.

Whenever I have dinos, I dose phosphate and add waste-away, which sounds similar to the method described. I have no clue what actually got the dinos to go away, but so far something I have done worked. Dinos appear present in my tank whenever I have 0.00 phosphate for extended periods of time.

 

[capt.dave]

Day 3 update: so far so good. Sand is clear but blowing around a bit in some places but even the lower flow areas in the corners have remained relatively clear. NO3 is 5 ppm, PO4 is 0.08 ppm. I’m still dosing NuAlgea and Reef Solutions vitamins as well as Brightwell aminos hoping to help the coral recover. Coral STN seems to have stopped. I also programmed my Apex to turn off the skimmer from 5 to 10 each day to keep NO3 and PO4 from bottoming again.

it’s too early to tell if this is the solution but I’m encouraged.

 

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[wwcgroupie]

Why wouldn’t you siphon all the old Dino infected sand out before adding the new sand live sand ?