Lost... Need help understanding H2O

Bryce73 · Nov 22, 2018

Got home and checked water and here are my results.

Yes, after a 5 mins wait.
I had a moment, I had a huge out burst of hair algae. It covered everything, wasn’t worried I knew the mollies would take care of it. It’s pretty much gone thanks to mollies and me. Could that have something to do with it?
As far as acclimation I do the drip method in bucket for 2 hours, check temp and salinity.
My sand bed is around 3 inches.

Subsea · Nov 22, 2018

Bryce73 said:
Hello,
First thing, I genuinely would like your input. I’ve been in the fish hobby since I was 16 years old, 45 now. However ever it’s been all fresh water, Central and South America cichlids. I came across a 125 gallon 6ft tank fully loaded that I couldn’t refuse. Come February it will be a year running. I have been learning a lot. Most important, quarantine! Marine ick, I caught everyone, set up a quarantine tank and medicated with copper and frequent water changes. I didn’t lose one. It was a brand new tank that needed cycling. 80 Days! Then, I decided to put fishes back in the display tank. Here is where I’m confused, before I started adding fishes I checked the water parameters. They are perfect except Ph. They are Ph 8.0, salinity 1.024, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, I’ve never had nitrate 0, so I rechecked and 0. I added some of my fish and the next morning I had 4 dead. So I got out my purple tang, Hoeven Wrasse, back to quarantine. I left in display tank 3 chromis, 3 sailfin mollies, and 1 cleaner Wrasse. All were breathing fast at the time, but now fine. Swimming and eating. So a week passed ph 8.0, salinity 1.025, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0. Everything looks good! I tried adding 1 diamond goby. Again with the heavy breathing, lethargic. 2 and 1/2 days later dead. What am I over looking or need to check?

I am more “old school” than you and I may be somewhat crusty after 47 years. @Paul B and I both started marine tanks in 1971 after Vietnam. His tank was maintained for 47 years using a reverse flow undergravel filter. Your chiklid systems are very similar to marine systems when it comes to alkalinity and buffering. Use of aroggonite as a substrate will assist with passive alkalinity management and pH buffering. Don’t be concerned with pH fluctuations when lights are off. Natural reefs in the oceans fluctuate between 8.2 and 7.8 pH.

It sounds like low oxygen is a likely cause of sudden fish deaths. Once during a short electrical grid lose of power, all fish in an extended 1500G system were killed while I was away. A good neighbor was baby sitting my tanks and came over the next morning with dead fish floating in display. Fish were removed promptly with no damage noted to corals. The bacteria in 6” deep sand beds took a hit as well and belched nutrients for a month.

lapin · Nov 22, 2018

You mentioned having to tear the tank down . Did you start over with all new rock and sand?

Subsea · Nov 22, 2018

@Bryce73

Welcome to the reefer addiction.

Please explain your use of copper to manage ich. As a heavy metal, copper will destroy a biological filter. If you used it in your main display, you should address that immediately with high quality GAC. I prefer using macro to filter out heavy metals and recycle nutrients.

When I referenced PaulB in my earlier post, it was because of his belief in fish natural immune system as primary defense against parasites like ich. In 47 years, I have seen ich twice, none in the last 25 years with one exception. I received seven tiny blue tangs from divers den after their 90 day quarantine. Ich spots were visible in shipping bag and fish were breathing heavily with obvious oxygen stress. With their compromised immune system, I made an executive decision and put all seven Hippo tangs into my 15 year established 75G Jaubert Plenum display with 30G mud/macro refugium. After three days all white spots were gone. After 7 days all itching and scraping gills stopped. Since then, I transferred all of these tangs out so that I could grow ornamental macro.

There are many ways to manage reef tanks. For me, John Tullock brought it all together in his book, “The Natural Reef Aquarium”. If you want to read the gold standard series, I would recommend Julian Sprung & Charles Delbric Reef Aquarium series. They don’t do fads. They do science and sometimes art.

Bryce73 · Nov 22, 2018

Ok, ok, I new to saltwater but not the fish hobby. Aquarium maintenance is the same monitor your water and do weekly water change. I like to do 25%.
When I say tear down, it’s removing the live rock, draining the water to make it easier to catch the fish.
As far as the tank it’s been running for 5 years. I bought it from my neighbor. We broke it down carried it over and set it back up. That was last February.
My dumb mistake was getting a yellow eye kole tang and putting it in the DT. Boom! Ick! ****, no quarantine tank. I had 50 gallon so I set up the quarantine tank. Pulled out the live rock that I didn’t like in the DT used that. Added 14 fishes. Monitored H2O daily and there was a moment when I was going H2O change every 3 days 25-50%. That’s how I cycled my tank.
No copper in DT, just quarantine. Same rocks in quarantine tank.

Subsea · Nov 22, 2018

Bryce73 said:
Ok, ok, I new to saltwater but not the fish hobby. Aquarium maintenance is the same monitor your water and do weekly water change. I like to do 25%.
When I say tear down, it’s removing the live rock, draining the water to make it easier to catch the fish.
As far as the tank it’s been running for 5 years. I bought it from my neighbor. We broke it down carried it over and set it back up. That was last February.
My dumb mistake was getting a yellow eye kole tang and putting it in the DT. Boom! Ick! ****, no quarantine tank. I had 50 gallon so I set up the quarantine tank. Pulled out the live rock that I didn’t like in the DT used that. Added 14 fishes. Monitored H2O daily and there was a moment when I was going H2O change every 3 days 25-50%. That’s how I cycled my tank.
No copper in DT, just quarantine. Same rocks in quarantine tank.

Thank you for the clarification. If I understood you, ich parasite was alive in display tank, then you removed all fish from display? How long was display tank fishless? How did you maintain biological filtration in display tank with no Fish?

PS: I consider your tank somewhat new, at one year mature.

BigRedReefer MT · Nov 22, 2018

Did you phantom feed the DT or add any sort of ammonia during your quarantine of the fish? I assume the nems stayed in DT and received feedings.

BigRedReefer MT · Nov 22, 2018

The reason we ask is because when livestock is removed due to quarantine the DT is running fallow. This fallow period is needed to run the life cycle of the parasite you experience and ensure that when you reintroduce your fish they aren't infected again and you start the process over. During this period the amount of ammonia introduced to the tank plummets, this can lead to die off of your nitrifying bacteria unless some sort of nutrient(ammonia) is added to the tank to keep the cycle moving.

BigRedReefer MT · Nov 22, 2018

If the bio filter isn't maintained through feeding the tank the bacteria will reduce in number and become less efficient at moving ammonia through the cycle. When quarantine is over and you reintroduce fish it can overload the reduced bacteria if you add too many at one time. Your params appeared to all be 0 which baffles me. Your 25% weekly water change schedule is stellar and the same I perform on my tank so I feel comfortable eliminating that as an issue though I would suggest a media bag of carbon placed in your sump or HOB if using one. Just to help remove some possible chemical.

BigRedReefer MT · Nov 22, 2018

The low oxygen level seams to be the next plausible reason. If you have glass tops I would open them and point one of your power heads up towards the surface to break the surface tension and increase gas exchange rates.

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, especially on Thanksgiving but you have come to the right place. There are a multitude of people who know more about this hobby than I could ever hope to know on this forum community. Just keep asking questions and I'm sure somebody will be able to help point you in the right direction.

Keep calm and stay salty my friend.

Billdogg · Nov 22, 2018

Ironically, at the lower temp you are keeping your system at, the amount of dissolved oxygen will actually be greater than if the temperature was higher, so I really doubt that it is a contributing factor to the fish losses.

Looking at the water tests you posted, it looks like your Ammonia level is at least 0.25, if not 0.50. Either is toxic to fish. It would indicate that your tank is either still cycling or that there is an abundance of decay in there somewhere. I would suggest a very large water change (50% or more). If you disturbed the rocks when you caught your fish, you almost certainly also released Hydrogen Sulfide from the sand. When you moved rocks was there any sort of a blackish cloud of very fine particles? Hydrogen Sulfide is exceptionally toxic at even very low levels and that may be adding to the problems.

As for your pH - don't worry about it. I'm happy if mine is 7.8 in the winter, although I probably haven't checked it in 20 years.

Aim your powerheads towards the surface to agitate the water if you aren't doing it already. This will maximize the oxygenation of your water.

You might also take a close look at the dead fish. Rock flower anemones pack a fairly potent sting and can easily incapacitate fish, especially smaller ones.

hth

MnFish1 · Nov 22, 2018

Bryce73 said:
Got home and checked water and here are my results.

Yes, after a 5 mins wait.
I had a moment, I had a huge out burst of hair algae. It covered everything, wasn’t worried I knew the mollies would take care of it. It’s pretty much gone thanks to mollies and me. Could that have something to do with it?
As far as acclimation I do the drip method in bucket for 2 hours, check temp and salinity.
My sand bed is around 3 inches.

What is your interpretation of those results - the tests aren't designed to be read through a camera - but with the vials held next to the white paper itself in a bright(ish) light?. To me it looks like you have a pH below 8, an ammonia of between .25 and .5. The lower the pH the more likely ammonia can be a problem. What time of day did you take the measurement. Often the pH drops even more during the night so this may be a problem. Though the ammonia doesn't seem 'that high' - and these tests sometimes show a low ammonia level im suspicious...

SPR1968 · Nov 22, 2018

Subsea said:
@Bryce73

Welcome to the reefer addiction.

Please explain your use of copper to manage ich. As a heavy metal, copper will destroy a biological filter. If you used it in your main display, you should address that immediately with high quality GAC. I prefer using macro to filter out heavy metals and recycle nutrients.

When I referenced PaulB in my earlier post, it was because of his belief in fish natural immune system as primary defense against parasites like ich. In 47 years, I have seen ich twice, none in the last 25 years with one exception. I received seven tiny blue tangs from divers den after their 90 day quarantine. Ich spots were visible in shipping bag and fish were breathing heavily with obvious oxygen stress. With their compromised immune system, I made an executive decision and put all seven Hippo tangs into my 15 year established 75G Jaubert Plenum display with 30G mud/macro refugium. After three days all white spots were gone. After 7 days all itching and scraping gills stopped. Since then, I transferred all of these tangs out so that I could grow ornamental macro.

There are many ways to manage reef tanks. For me, John Tullock brought it all together in his book, “The Natural Reef Aquarium”. If you want to read the gold standard series, I would recommend Julian Sprung & Charles Delbric Reef Aquarium series. They don’t do fads. They do science and sometimes art.

Bryce73 said:
Got home and checked water and here are my results.

Yes, after a 5 mins wait.
I had a moment, I had a huge out burst of hair algae. It covered everything, wasn’t worried I knew the mollies would take care of it. It’s pretty much gone thanks to mollies and me. Could that have something to do with it?
As far as acclimation I do the drip method in bucket for 2 hours, check temp and salinity.
My sand bed is around 3 inches.

Well unless I’m missing something, and it’s sometimes difficult with pictures, but your ammonia isn’t 0 it’s between 0.25-0.50ppm which is toxic to fish and marine life, and may well be the cause of your problems and probably requires immediate action to either remove the fish etc until it’s dealt with.

You can use some form of ammonia ‘binder’ or carry out water changes and maybe remove everything until it’s resolved.

MnFish1 · Nov 22, 2018

Bryce73 said:
Hello,
First thing, I genuinely would like your input. I’ve been in the fish hobby since I was 16 years old, 45 now. However ever it’s been all fresh water, Central and South America cichlids. I came across a 125 gallon 6ft tank fully loaded that I couldn’t refuse. Come February it will be a year running. I have been learning a lot. Most important, quarantine! Marine ick, I caught everyone, set up a quarantine tank and medicated with copper and frequent water changes. I didn’t lose one. It was a brand new tank that needed cycling. 80 Days! Then, I decided to put fishes back in the display tank. Here is where I’m confused, before I started adding fishes I checked the water parameters. They are perfect except Ph. They are Ph 8.0, salinity 1.024, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, I’ve never had nitrate 0, so I rechecked and 0. I added some of my fish and the next morning I had 4 dead. So I got out my purple tang, Hoeven Wrasse, back to quarantine. I left in display tank 3 chromis, 3 sailfin mollies, and 1 cleaner Wrasse. All were breathing fast at the time, but now fine. Swimming and eating. So a week passed ph 8.0, salinity 1.025, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0. Everything looks good! I tried adding 1 diamond goby. Again with the heavy breathing, lethargic. 2 and 1/2 days later dead. What am I over looking or need to check?

Re-read this - what are you using for a filter/flow? You are overlooking the possibility of velvet.

MnFish1 · Nov 22, 2018

SPR1968 said:
Well unless I’m missing something, and it’s sometimes difficult with pictures, but your ammonia isn’t 0 it’s between 0.25-0.50ppm which is toxic to fish and marine life, and may well be the cause of your problems and probably requires immediate action to either remove the fish etc until it’s dealt with.

You can use some form of ammonia ‘binder’ or carry out water changes and maybe remove everything until it’s resolved.

And Btw - I would say the pH is closer to 7.8 than 8 - and the ammonia closer to .5 than .25.

SPR1968 · Nov 22, 2018

MnFish1 said:
And Btw - I would say the pH is closer to 7.8 than 8 - and the ammonia closer to .5 than .25.

Yes I agree, it does look closer to .5, I was being optimistic! Lol

MnFish1 · Nov 22, 2018

OK - So - curious - you had a kole tang that got ich - otherwise the tank was fine when you re-set it up. You took all the fish out - left the tank fallow for 80 days - but you also took rock from your display and put it in the QT tank. You didnt treat with any medications in the QT tank. Then you took the fish and the rock and re-added to your tank. The next day 4 were dead - but some were ok. Did you leave any fish at all in your display tank during the fallow period?

When you re-added the fish - did you stir up the sand when you replaced the rock? Because that COULD release sulfur - and cause problems - but that should kill the anemones etc as well as all of the fish (so should ammonia).

When oxygen levels are low - fish dont swim on the bottom - they swim at the surface of the water (usually)?

One question you didnt answer - was the temp in your QT the same as the DT?

The nitrates being zero is probably because of the anaerobic bacteria in the deep sand bed.

Another possibility is that youre fish developed 'relative immunity' to ich and even velvet while in QT - and the stress of moving them back (especially with a temperature difference) caused that to recur. If you took rock from your display you weren't really leaving the fish in.a QT - unless I misunderstand what you did....

JMHO

You may want to send an ICP test to check for different chemicals that may be playing a role. Also - did you clean the tank with Anything when you moved it between your friends house and yours? How long was it between when you set up the tank at your house and when you added the kole tang?

Bryce73 · Nov 23, 2018

Thanks for everyone’s help, Biggest thing I found out is to do a large H2O change, increase temp, and don’t disturb the sandbed. My personal opinion is when I remove my fish I disturbed the sand. I remember watching bubbles roll up. But, I was in the moment of catching fishes. I’m starting to tank cycle again.
Some of the help, people need to read before asking. Never put the rock back in DT, it’s medicated, Duh. All fish out of DT, how can I cure ick with fish still in there. Watched enough YouTube videos on fallow 76 days average. Quarantine tank treated with seachem cupramine.
As far as the tank on transfer. Broke down that day and set it back up the same day. Next day fishes were added after the water cleared up. Fast forward to summer added kole tang got ick. Here we are now.
I again I believe it was my doing. I disturbed the sandbed. Barely fed the DT tank during fallow period. Then I had to disturb everything again to save my purple tang and Hoeven’s wrasse, just not as bad. That’s why I left in the mollies and chromis for tank cycling