LPS troubleshooting. What would you do next?

[ElementReefer]

In my 55 gallon “main” tank, I grow softies like crazy. I also have a very happy rainbow BTA. However, it appears that none of my LPS put down new stone. I’m looking for suggestions on what to try next.

Observations:
3 months ago I had RTN in my Duncan and hammer frags, I moved them to a 2.5 gallon hospital tank for antibiotics, both recovered, and then thrived there. So I left them there, and they grew! A week ago I returned them to main tank, and the tissue on the hammer is already starting to recede.

A blasto frag with a single head has grown 4 new ones (in the main tank), all full sized now, but no observed stony growth. They’re all just crammed around the original base.

I had a bizarro cyphastrea that started to grow over its frag plug, but the growth was paper thin, like it wasn’t putting down stony base. After about 6 months of this, it all died.

Parameters:
AGE 14 months
ALK 8.3 (Salifert)
CAL 450 (Red Sea)
MAG 1250 (Red Sea)
N is difficult to keep above zero, I try to dose it up to 5, if I go higher I get algae (Hanna High Range)
P is always undetectable, if I dose it to detectable I get algae (Hanna Low Range)
T 79 Fahrenheit

FLOW provided by 2x Jebao SLW-20 on sine wave 50% power, gentle but consistent through tank
SALT Fritz RPM
LIGHT Nicrew 100watt x2, 50% blues, 5% whites, 1-8-1 ramp schedule, all LPS placed in 85-150 par
FILTER Hang on back skimmer and Tidal filter running filter floss and occasional carbon
Good coralline algae coverage

Where to go from here?

 

[fishski13]

For your parameters, they are only as good as they are consistent. I would make sure alkalinity is consistent for lps. Very large swings in alkalinity and phosphate can affect lps.

Your magnesium is pretty low, usually lps especially euphilliya like hammers, thrive with magnesium between 1400 and 1500. I would look into raising that.

And I would look to find ways to have detectable phosphate as that is also very important for lps.

 

[Huey_Gnr]

May seem a little too basic for what you are looking for but... what were the parameters in your hospital tank in relation to main tank? Any glaring discrepancies?

Also, on the advice of a few others... I did some research and I have begun to add manganese to my tank. Manganese is used in the metabolic process to reduce nitrates to simpler compounds which are then used for the overall growth of the coral, and has a high success rate in LPS.

I would offer just based off of the little experience I do have that given the low nitrate and low phosphate numbers, a manganese deficiency for the LPS may be present, which is inhibiting the growth process for an already low nutrient tank. Again... just an assumption.

Manganese deficiency would be evident in color spectrum of your corals, specifically blues and reds as they would become less and less bright and vibrant over time.

FWIW, I have begun at a VERY LOW addition to my tank and I am monitoring for changes in my tank visually as I do not want to spend $300+ for test kit, but my goniopora have actually responded very well.

 

[Dave1993]

you said you had softies any leathers? leathers release toxins into the water

 

[Dave1993]

and you need phosphates and nitrates algae is natural let it grow

 

[Eagle_Steve]

you said you had softies any leathers? leathers release toxins into the water

This right here. I was about to ask the same thing.

@ElementReefer how many softies do you have and what kind?

When I had a leather heavy tank, I could do nems, but there was no way LPS of any type thrived unless I ran a ton of carbon. Even then, it was still slow growth.

 

[ElementReefer]

This right here. I was about to ask the same thing.

@ElementReefer how many softies do you have and what kind?

When I had a leather heavy tank, I could do nems, but there was no way LPS of any type thrived unless I ran a ton of carbon. Even then, it was still slow growth.

Yes to you both, I had a large toadstool and Kenya tree all year that I took out a few weeks ago, followed that with a couple standard water changes and running carbon.

I had suspicion that the toadstool was involved. It’s one reason I left the LPS in the hospital tank. However, now that those LPS are back in the main tank, I see a bit of tissue recession again. Perhaps I need more water changes?

 

[ElementReefer]

May seem a little too basic for what you are looking for but... what were the parameters in your hospital tank in relation to main tank? Any glaring discrepancies?

Also, on the advice of a few others... I did some research and I have begun to add manganese to my tank. Manganese is used in the metabolic process to reduce nitrates to simpler compounds which are then used for the overall growth of the coral, and has a high success rate in LPS.

I would offer just based off of the little experience I do have that given the low nitrate and low phosphate numbers, a manganese deficiency for the LPS may be present, which is inhibiting the growth process for an already low nutrient tank. Again... just an assumption.

Manganese deficiency would be evident in color spectrum of your corals, specifically blues and reds as they would become less and less bright and vibrant over time.

FWIW, I have begun at a VERY LOW addition to my tank and I am monitoring for changes in my tank visually as I do not want to spend $300+ for test kit, but my goniopora have actually responded very well.

Since it’s only 2.5 gallons, the hospital tank got a 40% water change every 2 weeks, ran about 9 alk, 420 cal, 5-10 nitrate and 0.02 phosphate. I didn’t test often because I assumed it was never going to be particularly stable. Manual top off, so salinity was not stable but also not wild swings.

It was never intended to be a long term habitat, so it’s surprising that it was actually the better environment.

 

[Leo.L]

May seem a little too basic for what you are looking for but... what were the parameters in your hospital tank in relation to main tank? Any glaring discrepancies?

Also, on the advice of a few others... I did some research and I have begun to add manganese to my tank. Manganese is used in the metabolic process to reduce nitrates to simpler compounds which are then used for the overall growth of the coral, and has a high success rate in LPS.

I would offer just based off of the little experience I do have that given the low nitrate and low phosphate numbers, a manganese deficiency for the LPS may be present, which is inhibiting the growth process for an already low nutrient tank. Again... just an assumption.

Manganese deficiency would be evident in color spectrum of your corals, specifically blues and reds as they would become less and less bright and vibrant over time.

FWIW, I have begun at a VERY LOW addition to my tank and I am monitoring for changes in my tank visually as I do not want to spend $300+ for test kit, but my goniopora have actually responded very well.

What manganese product are you using. I bought the C part of red sea's trace colors because it's supposed to have iron, manganese and a few other trace elements. Not sure if that's enough for my goniapora and alveopora. Thanks in advance.

Since it’s only 2.5 gallons, the hospital tank got a 40% water change every 2 weeks, ran about 9 alk, 420 cal, 5-10 nitrate and 0.02 phosphate. I didn’t test often because I assumed it was never going to be particularly stable. Manual top off, so salinity was not stable but also not wild swings.

It was never intended to be a long term habitat, so it’s surprising that it was actually the better environment.

 

[Huey_Gnr]

What manganese product are you using. I bought the C part of red sea's trace colors because it's supposed to have iron, manganese and a few other trace elements. Not sure if that's enough for my goniapora and alveopora. Thanks in advance.

I use Aquaforest Manganum. BRS usually has it. If not, I have an extra bottle I can send you.

 

[dwest]

I would do weekly 10% water changes, use GAC in the system to help remove possible leather toxins, and make sure that nitrates and phosphates are as consistent as possible and measurable.

Algae growth is natural and can be managed by CUC.

 

[Leo.L]

I use Aquaforest Manganum. BRS usually has it. If not, I have an extra bottle I can send you.

Wow that's nice. Sure I can sure use it. But can also buy. All good just want to know what someone with experience has used and if they have seen great improvement in goniapora/ alveopora since I currently have two big colonies that I have bought 3 months ago.

 

[ElementReefer]

I would do weekly 10% water changes, use GAC in the system to help remove possible leather toxins, and make sure that nitrates and phosphates are as consistent as possible and measurable.

Algae growth is natural and can be managed by CUC.

I’ve done a total of 50% water change since removing the leathers last month, carbon, increased magnesium from 1250 to 1400, and switched from Fritz to Tropic Marin Pro. All the LPS are looking excellent! We will see how long this lasts lol.

 

[Huey_Gnr]

I’ve done a total of 50% water change since removing the leathers last month, carbon, increased magnesium from 1250 to 1400, and switched from Fritz to Tropic Marin Pro. All the LPS are looking excellent! We will see how long this lasts lol.

When you say a total of 50%, do you mean 50% at once?

Because a 10% water change each week would still leave 90% of remaining toxins in the tank each time and combined together would not have changed out 50% of the original water... would just be 10% of what was remaining each time etc.

Just curious?

 

[vetteguy53081]

In my 55 gallon “main” tank, I grow softies like crazy. I also have a very happy rainbow BTA. However, it appears that none of my LPS put down new stone. I’m looking for suggestions on what to try next.

Observations:
3 months ago I had RTN in my Duncan and hammer frags, I moved them to a 2.5 gallon hospital tank for antibiotics, both recovered, and then thrived there. So I left them there, and they grew! A week ago I returned them to main tank, and the tissue on the hammer is already starting to recede.

A blasto frag with a single head has grown 4 new ones (in the main tank), all full sized now, but no observed stony growth. They’re all just crammed around the original base.

I had a bizarro cyphastrea that started to grow over its frag plug, but the growth was paper thin, like it wasn’t putting down stony base. After about 6 months of this, it all died.

Parameters:
AGE 14 months
ALK 8.3 (Salifert)
CAL 450 (Red Sea)
MAG 1250 (Red Sea)
N is difficult to keep above zero, I try to dose it up to 5, if I go higher I get algae (Hanna High Range)
P is always undetectable, if I dose it to detectable I get algae (Hanna Low Range)
T 79 Fahrenheit

FLOW provided by 2x Jebao SLW-20 on sine wave 50% power, gentle but consistent through tank
SALT Fritz RPM
LIGHT Nicrew 100watt x2, 50% blues, 5% whites, 1-8-1 ramp schedule, all LPS placed in 85-150 par
FILTER Hang on back skimmer and Tidal filter running filter floss and occasional carbon
Good coralline algae coverage

Where to go from here?

An ICP test may be warranted to truly know where things are. Phos seems to be low and while range should be .04 - .08, zero lessens nutrient delivery needed. Not seeing any pics, moderate light and water flow is happy median for these types of corals.
To assure no low level toxins are present as many softies and LPS do release toxins, add a pouch of chemiPure blue to the tank but do this after you can get po4 up.
Take a water sample to an LFS that does not use Api tests and have them test your phos to see what they come up with and to compare with yours

 

[ElementReefer]

When you say a total of 50%, do you mean 50% at once?

Because a 10% water change each week would still leave 90% of remaining toxins in the tank each time and combined together would not have changed out 50% of the original water... would just be 10% of what was remaining each time etc.

Just curious?

50% cumulative, via 10 and 20. I plan to do 20% changes weekly for a few more weeks while running the carbon.

From what I have read on terpenoids, they are a) volatile and b) extremely hydrophobic, so I would not be surprised if their concentration drops rapidly once the offending organism is removed - skimmed out, trapped in carbon or simply degraded due to their volatility.

That said, 20% changes seem prudent for now. Also this Tropic Marin has a ton more trace elements than Fritz had, hoping that’s a good thing.

 

[Huey_Gnr]

50% cumulative, via 10 and 20. I plan to do 20% changes weekly for a few more weeks while running the carbon.

From what I have read on terpenoids, they are a) volatile and b) extremely hydrophobic, so I would not be surprised if their concentration drops rapidly once the offending organism is removed - skimmed out, trapped in carbon or simply degraded due to their volatility.

That said, 20% changes seem prudent for now. Also this Tropic Marin has a ton more trace elements than Fritz had, hoping that’s a good thing.

I am actually in the process of switching over to Tropic Marin myself

I also ordered the AF Power Food because I want to try some target feeding on my flower pot and I have a few encrusting coral frags.

 

[ElementReefer]

I am actually in the process of switching over to Tropic Marin myself

I also ordered the AF Power Food because I want to try some target feeding on my flower pot and I have a few encrusting coral frags.

Nice, so far so good with mine.

I use Reef Roids, which work so well, if only I was disciplined enough to feed on a more regular basis. Is the AF product remarkably different somehow?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

N is difficult to keep above zero, I try to dose it up to 5, if I go higher I get algae

P is always undetectable, if I dose it to detectable I get algae

The conditions needed to grow healthy coral are also the conditions that grow algae. Keeping N/P at such low levels will starve most LPS and soft coral, and even some SPS.
Try to find a way to manage algae without bottoming out nutrients.

 

[Huey_Gnr]

Nice, so far so good with mine.

I use Reef Roids, which work so well, if only I was disciplined enough to feed on a more regular basis. Is the AF product remarkably different somehow?

I don't think so.... I have always good results with their products but I think it's a matter of preference and what your corals respond to. I like to try different things and see what impacts they have so I can compare before I find one and stick with it.

For example, right now I am individually dosing a 2 part Alk solution (BRS), 2 part Calcium solution (BRS), my own Sodium Nitrate solution (food grade), and my own phosphate from Trisodium Phosphate (Loudwolf). I add phyto each day to tank for feeding along my my occasional seaweed strip for the tang and brine shrimp for the others.

When I complete what I have, I am interested in trying the Balling Method for my tank to see how it responds for a few months. I've been reading up on it and I just want to give it try.

I may be different than some, but I enjoy the hobby aspect of reef keeping and experimenting with different ideas to see what works best for me. My tank is a little over a year old so I do not have thousands of dollars worth of SPS that I am worried about losing if something goes terribly wrong. A few small goni frags, encrusting monti's, zoas and mushrooms with a few fish thrown in for aesthetics.

I track my results with a spreadsheet and make notes about what the levels are and what I actually see going, this way I can reference it each month. Again, I am probably the exception to many on here who "religiously" keep everything within .000001 ppb of everything they test, or so they say.

As I referenced earlier, I am moving over to Tropic Marin to see what that does for the tank as I've read solid reviews.

Best wishes to you in your LPS adventures!