LR in SUmp = Nitrate Factory?

[Rybren]

I was reading through a thread in that other reefing forum and was surprised by people stating that Live Rock in a refugium are nitrate factories. I always thought that the opposite is true.

Here are some quotes:

What are you planning on having the rock in there do? You have a skimmer which equals export. You want to use Chaetomorpha for export as well. (There are far more effective macros around than Chaeto, but... ) Then you have rock, which does nothing but produce what you are trying to export. That is why bio-balls went out of vogue; rock = bio-balls.

What he really trying to say is the rock will produce more nitrate problems in your tank than beneficial pods being produced... there is no need for rocks in your fuge...or sand for that matter just a giant ball of cheato rolling around...

+1 to the rocks being a waste and counterproductive in that fuge. I would eliminate the rocks and run with the chaeto. It will provide plenty of refuge for pods to populate without causing a detritus trap and nitrate factory that will result from the rocks in there.

The larger misconception is that the rock rubble contributes to denitrification because it has holes in it. That is very unlikely as there is no mechanism for the bulk movement of water through the rock, at precisely the correct rate, which would be required for denitrification to occur. Certainly the conditions probably exist though the rubble is pretty small. (till the "pores" become clogged with glycocalyx; bacterial secretions,) However there is still the problem of bulk water movement. Sand beds operate differently, as they are "fluid" rather than solid rock...
...Looking at it logically, the DT produces, and the sump exports. Adding production to the sump, makes the system less efficient.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I was reading through a thread in that other reefing forum and was surprised by people stating that Live Rock in a refugium are nitrate factories. I always thought that the opposite is true.

Here are some quotes:









What are your thoughts on this subject?

I don't believe its true at all. The science of why a canister filter is a factory quite different from waht happens in a rock. Having a stack of rubble or pile of rock and never cleaning, that's a different thing and Imo, mostly what happens in these reports. At least Id assume so.

 

[bif24701]

I am not a fan of rubble. I do have Live Rock in my 100 gallon sump and also MarinePure block. My nitrates are consistently low even though I have 5 tangs and feed well. The larger and more porous the rock the better it will perform denitrification.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I am not a fan of rubble. I do have Live Rock in my 100 gallon sump and also MarinePure block. My nitrates are consistently low even though I have 5 tangs and feed well. The larger and more porous the rock the better it will perform denitrification.

curious question, do you or do you have to "spring clean" the blocks for detritus? I would assume like everything in the tank it has to be maintained.

 

[sammirooter]

Following. Thanks guys for your knowledge

 

[john.m.cole3]

Obce a

curious question, do you or do you have to "spring clean" the blocks for detritus? I would assume like everything in the tank it has to be maintained.

I just did a 6 month sump cleaning. I removed about 25 pounds of live rock. I also repeatedly dunked my brick and spheres in some tank water I removed during a WC hoping to keep the "pores" cleaned out. They look better.

 

[Sabellafella]

I was reading through a thread in that other reefing forum and was surprised by people stating that Live Rock in a refugium are nitrate factories. I always thought that the opposite is true.

Here are some quotes:









What are your thoughts on this subject?

To some degree i guess yea it could get out of hand but Nope, being lazy is a nitrate factory =)

 

[john.m.cole3]

don't fall victim to LARS

 

[Sabellafella]

don't fall victim to LARS

I guess now adays having live rock anywhere in your tank is a n03 factory lol

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

being lazy is a nitrate factory =)

Plus Infinity!

 

[Rybren]

I really found their statements to be counter-intuitive. However, my intuition is rarely right :)

I wonder what @Randy Holmes-Farley has to say? I actually meant to post this in the Chemistry forum so that Randy would see it.

 

[Waterjockey]

I'm wondering why live rock in a sump is supposed to have a different effect than live rock in the display?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'm wondering why live rock in a sump is supposed to have a different effect than live rock in the display?

its the same. just more. imo

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'm wondering why live rock in a sump is supposed to have a different effect than live rock in the display?

an add. One of the reasons why folks seem to opt for the marine pure bloks, its supposed to have more surface area for bacteria so you can use less and save space. But I have zero experience with it.

 

[Bluefish9]

Other than doing a little "dusting" with a spare powerhead or a turkey baster, I've never truly cleaned any rock before. In my sump I use marinepure spheres that I contain in a plastic basket... every few months ill take the basket out and give it a vigorous shake in some tank water from a water change. Thats really all I find to be necessary.

 

[bif24701]

I'm wondering why live rock in a sump is supposed to have a different effect than live rock in the display?

If I kept all 200 pounds of rock in my display I would have no swimming for coral mounting room.

 

[Sm51498]

This whole nitrate factory thing is silly. shouldn't we want a nitrate factory? to extend the metaphor, a nitrate factory must assemble nitrate from parts, ammonia and nitrite, it can't be summoned from thin air. we should prize the efficient and fast conversion of those things as they are poisonous.

 

[Wesus]

I have LR in my sump and I'm having hard time to keep my nitrates above 1 ppm.

 

[Jongalt26]

Whats a more effective macro export than chaeto ?

I have a lot of LR in my sump (and marinepure, chaeto), it's been there for over 6 months or so (needed to breakdown and set-up another tank) I have 1 ppm nitrates so im curious how these are a nitrate factory.

 

[brandon429]

Sm5 I read that factory claim differently. I see what you are saying, though. Your take (if im reading right) infers that without the extra added surface area live rock, we'd have ammonia backup but without that sump LR things were often just fine. The reason for the factory claim, is that the added surface area of live rock is catching and holding for additional breakdown the detritus that a bare bottom system would've otherwise piled in the corner for the keeper to siphon out. its also stating the NNR abilities of live rock are so overplayed that adding some causes nitrates, not reduces them, more often than not.

I think Randy and others have some measurable NNR by making a large ratios of live rock exist in a system already fairly controlled with export or uptake anyway. LR wasn't that powerful of a NNR system as was claimed in the 90s or carbon dosers/ats wouldn't be all the rage to clean up nitrate. same for deep sand beds. all the stuff claimed to reduce nitrate in the 90s turned out to be catch-and-holders of protein, which leaks into ammonia and produces more nitrate since it couldn't be exported. these are nutrient sinks by and large, not nutrient reducers, due to excessive surface area we used that we couldn't clean.